Demon's Souls won't support RayTracing

TheRealTalker · Oct 31, 2020

Somehow it not having it isn't going to take away all the impressive footage and hype it had for me.

Day 1 Baby!

Then again I am going to play that and all announced performance modes for the games I am getting since I care more for 60fps then more visual stuff.

They can always patch it in later for those that want it.

Hydeus · Oct 31, 2020

Fennec said:
A launch day game, a remake on top of that, already pushing a not yet released system to its limits ? Come on now...

Second Son syndrome.

gozu · Oct 31, 2020

J_ToSaveTheDay said:
Raytracing is amazing but I'd rather still wait until hardware reaches a point where it doesn't present such a huge performance penalty before I begin insisting on its presence in my games.

How???

Deleted member 22750 · Oct 31, 2020

Sha_96 said:
RayTracing is overrated anyway, game still looks stunning

Dr. Doom said:
60 FPS > RT

Robinson said:
It still looks better than most games with RT.

Richter1887 said:
Game looks better than most games with ray tracing. I am fine with this.

it's a launch game I get it It's not a huge deal

On the flip side these responses are hilarious. If the game had raytracing these responses would be flipped in the total opposite direction.
Dismissing raytracing as insignificant or overrated or dumb or better off without it speaks for itself

Mr.Deadshot · Oct 31, 2020

InRainbows said:
it's a launch game I get it It's not a huge deal

On the flip side these responses are hilarious. If the game had ray tracing these responses would be flipped in the total opposite direction. And there are more of them I haven't even got to quoting yet.

Bullshit. All that matters to me is how the game looks and not with what tech that look is achieved.

Deleted member 2180 · Oct 31, 2020

Id expect Sony largest published launch title to utilize the key features they promoted their hardware though, launch games = all gimmicks

TheRealTalker · Oct 31, 2020

Also it sound more like this was a time management issue to meet the launch deadline and what they wanted vs what they learnt later they could add.

Seems like they were going about the real time light and shadows route among other things but later learnt raytracing was possible but with the time they had left they could only focus on certain things then others.

Focusing on raytracing meant they couldn't focus on some other details/modes/settings instead. I say it is the better decision.

Kyuuji · Oct 31, 2020

InRainbows said:
it's a launch game I get it It's not a huge deal

On the flip side these responses are hilarious. If the game had raytracing these responses would be flipped in the total opposite direction. And there are more of them I haven't even got to quoting yet.

I'm not sure what point you're making. The game looks incredible. It's confirmed it doesn't have ray-tracing, so it seems obvious that RT isn't needed in this instance for the game to still look as great as it does. Had RT been confirmed one would have assumed it would be assisting in making the game look as great as it does, and thus would be celebrated.

This gotcha is weird because the baseline is that the game looks brilliant. So whatever technology is missing isn't obviously required for that baseline but whatever is being used, is.

Deleted member 22750 · Oct 31, 2020

Mr.Deadshot said:
Bullshit. All that matters to me is how the game looks and not with what tech that look is achieved.

I don't believe you. As I said, the posts would be turned around and be talking about how amazing raytracing is. Instead we get "don't care" "doesn't matter" posts.

Deleted member 16876 · Oct 31, 2020

InRainbows said:
it's a launch game I get it It's not a huge deal

On the flip side these responses are hilarious. If the game had raytracing these responses would be flipped in the total opposite direction. And there are more of them I haven't even got to quoting yet.

What?

If the game had RTX then that would be even better but it doesn't change the fact it is the best looking game on next gen right now.

nib95 · Oct 31, 2020

giapel said:
But Era told me RT was the future! Now art style and carefully crafted world doesn't even need RT. What a twist, eh?

This type of post always amuses me. By far the best looking thing shown from next-gen gen yet, doesn't have Ray Tracing (Unreal 5 demo), and now neither does the second best looking thing out of next-gen (Demon's Souls).

So no, RT is not the be all and end all and never was. That said, when certain games are already looking less than stellar or are past gen titles or whatever, there is sometimes more of an expectation for RT, because the presumption is said games have more performance and optimisations leeway by being less technically or graphically impressive in the first place.

Ultimately, as both Unreal 5 demo and Demon's Souls show, you can just as well achieve better looking visuals, world's, geometric density, quality of shaders, materials, effects etc, by not pursuing RT, since the latter is highly resource intensive in and of itself, resources that can be spent elsewhere.

Personally I'd rather have games that look as good as the Unreal 5 demo even if that means losing RT and native 4K.

Fennec · Oct 31, 2020

Hydeus said:
Second Son syndrome.

What are you implying ? That Second Son pushed early on the PS4 to its limits ? Or that is what people thought at the time ?

Kordelle · Oct 31, 2020

I think it's not the end of the world (game looks amazing), but still a bummer.

I remember people being pissed when MS said Halo Infinite would get RT in a post-launch patch and WD Legions even did manage to get RT at launch, so I don't see being a launch title as an argument why it shouldn't be expected.

modiz · Oct 31, 2020

City 17 said:
RT not being in there is cool, not every game is gonna have it, but PR lying about its presence is totally NOT cool.

i imagine it was there and it was cut out, you all need to realize that these launch games are often coming in hot with very last minute changes, the games are being developed alongside the hardware, its a very difficult task, they didnt say it has ray tracing with the intent of lying, they did because back then it was in the build, later it was taken out for x y z reasons.

Markratos · Oct 31, 2020

RestEerie said:
i think Sony PR's team and their internal research & development team (software & hardware) are operating in 2 totally dimensions.

The vast majority of the public is unaware of these controversies. Sony's PR has been good for the last 2 weeks (PSPlus, Previews ...) and in recent months they have managed to reach the casual audience much better than the competition.

Lemony1984 · Oct 31, 2020

I think it's interesting that one of the only AAA next gen exclusive games doesn't have RT. The game still looks incredible anyways.

Confused Cheeseburger · Oct 31, 2020

Small price to pay.

SmittyWerbenManJensen · Oct 31, 2020

RT is something I will never care about, so this doesn't bother me one bit.

Deleted member 22750 · Oct 31, 2020

Richter1887 said:
What?

If the game had RTX then that would be even better but it doesn't change the fact it is the best looking game on next gen right now.

there is no issue
Game looks amazing

I was just pointing out how the posts, particularly the ones saying stuff like "raytracing doesn't matter" are funny because if the game had it those posts wouldn't happen. And would be championing raytracing instead of the opposite.

Domcorleone · Oct 31, 2020

InRainbows said:
I don't believe you. As I said, the posts would be turned around and be talking about how amazing raytracing is. Instead we get "don't care" "doesn't matter" posts.

Some people don't care about buzzwords to carry on their console warrioring. The game is the best looking next gen game currently and the lighting system they employed looks fantastic. Who cares either way besides you? If you found out it was using RT does the game suddenly look or play better lol?

gifyku · Oct 31, 2020

Will ray tracing become the new native 4k vs checkerboarding in the fanboy wars? Stay tuned to Era to find out.

All jokes aside, I find it interesting they tie the decision to initial scope. As in this project was started very early into the PS5 lifecycle

Deleted member 16876 · Oct 31, 2020

InRainbows said:
there is no issue
Game looks amazing

I was just pointing out how the posts, particularly the ones saying stuff like "raytracing doesn't matter" are funny because if the game had it those posts wouldn't happen.

It doesn't matter in this case. It looks so good that people assumed it had raytracing to begin with so the fact we suprisingly learned it doesn't have it and yet looks this good means it doesn't bother most people.

gozu · Oct 31, 2020

Let's be honest. This is disappointing news and BP were 100% honest about their reasons. Props to them.

RT could 100% been done at dynamic 1440p30 with RT. BUT it might take another year and miss launch.

Best to launch now without it as the delay would not be worth the GFX improvements, and 60FPS is the main mode anyways.

Time is not free. So, now, I just hope a hypothetical Bloodborne remake WILL have that time allocated for RT.

Maybe BB:Re won't come out til PS6 though.

Kyuuji · Oct 31, 2020

InRainbows said:
there is no issue
Game looks amazing

I was just pointing out how the posts, particularly the ones saying stuff like "raytracing doesn't matter" are funny because if the game had it those posts wouldn't happen.

Isn't that obvious though? If the game had it, it would be a part of what's making the game look amazing. Now it's confirmed it isn't, it doesn't seem to matter because this game still looks stunning without it. So to what end should it matter to them?

Deleted member 16908 · Oct 31, 2020

InRainbows said:
it's a launch game I get it It's not a huge deal

On the flip side these responses are hilarious. If the game had raytracing these responses would be flipped in the total opposite direction. And there are more of them I haven't even got to quoting yet.

I will take 60 FPS over ray tracing every time.

TheRealTalker · Oct 31, 2020

Lemony1984 said:
I think it's interesting that one of the only AAA next gen exclusive games doesn't have RT. The game still looks incredible anyways.

It doesn't mean much. No where in the interview comments does it somehow imply it was technically not possible rather then being an issue of game management with the limited time they had before launch.

We've seen R&C and GT7 have it anyways. Especially the former which is impressive in more ways then one while still have RT.

DS not having it doesn't take away from it being one of the best graphically looking and hyped launch games coming out in November with multiple options to choose from in terms of how you visually tweak it among other things like a mirror mode and a performance mode.

I'd rather have all of that then missing some of those things just to have RT.

Elios83 · Oct 31, 2020

So far it's the best looking next gen launch game in any case.

Sky87 · Oct 31, 2020

Here's hoping the PC version they mentioned in the first trailer will have full RT when/if it comes out at least.

They most likely experimented with it in the beginning but figured out it would be too costly. It was a bit premature to promise Ray Tracing though.

VaanXSnake · Oct 31, 2020

Looks like Sony got their lying ability from Jim Ryan, it still looks good but I wish Sony would be more transparent about those things

Milennia · Oct 31, 2020

I have a 3080 and don't care about RT very much, so this is fine.

MrKlaw · Oct 31, 2020

It never made sense to me for reflections at least - it's such a dark and grimy world there isn't much to reflect (even the armour is mostly crusty)

GI I could see but maybe they have a solution without RT that works for them

and realistic lighting isn't exactly what I think of about souls games with their magical glowy main character

jett · Oct 31, 2020

Slaythe Well there it is. :P

I figured 4K mode would just increased resolution otherwise they would've showcased it instead. Seems like a useless option to me with how good 60fps mode looks but maybe they were asked by Sony to include it or something.

Personally, ray tracing will never take precedence over 60fps for me. Some worthless, more accurate reflections will never be more important than literally twice the number of frames and twice the responsiveness in my controls.

alphacat · Oct 31, 2020

Crossing Eden said:
You can blame marketing for that as that's one of the easiest ways to market RT as the next step forward compared to say...the many much more complicated aspects of RT. Like, this:

is much easier to understand for the average consumer than this:

Personally I blame BFV's marketing as it focused first and foremost on car and puddle reflections compared to Metro or Control's much smaller marketing campaigns that provided a much more informative picture of why and how RT is a huge step forward.

well said

Deleted member 22750 · Oct 31, 2020

Robinson said:
I will take 60 FPS over ray tracing every time.

I was never being hard on this game or the fact it doesn't have it.

Minsc · Oct 31, 2020

nib95 said:
This type of post always amuses me. By far the best looking thing shown from next-gen gen yet, doesn't have Ray Tracing (Unreal 5 demo), and now neither does the second best looking thing out of next-gen (Demon's Souls).

So no, RT is not the be all and end all and never was. That said, when certain games are already looking less than stellar or are past gen titles or whatever, there is sometimes more of an expectation for RT, because the presumption is said games have more performance and optimisations leeway by being less technically or graphically impressive in the first place.

Ultimately, as both Unreal 5 demo and Demon's Souls show, you can just as well achieve better looking visuals, world's, geometric density, quality of shaders, materials, effects etc, by not pursuing RT, since the latter is highly resource intensive in and of itself, resources that can be spent elsewhere.

Personally I'd rather have games that look as good as the Unreal 5 demo even if that means losing RT and native 4K.

Star Wars reflections ray tracing demo is the most impressive one I've seen so far.

And of course if the game had ray tracing it would look better - just like if it ran at 120fps or if it ran at 8k, or if it had whatever that it doesn't have. Just because it looks good doesn't mean it can't look better, and ray tracing would make it look better.

Estarossa · Oct 31, 2020

Oh wow, this just makes the game look even more impressive. Can't say I care much for RT shadows and reflections in their current state on consoles! I think GI is the most impactful graphical feature for any game and the DeS remake looks to have some form of it implemented here.

60fps though.

Tecnniqe · Oct 31, 2020

VaanXSnake said:
Looks like Sony got their lying ability from Jim Ryan, it still looks good but I wish Sony would be more transparent about those things

Seems like a lot of misinformation around Sony these days, from mistakes in launch trailers to "lies" in the blog posts. What a mess.

Ray tracing would make this look absolutely insane and it's a shame we won't get to see that, although I'd rather have smooth 60FPS over it but 60FPS have not been the hallmark of the console generation for a while and it's good that it's finally gaining traction but it's kinda weird they didn't include a option for visual fidelity with RT.

Deleted member 16908 · Oct 31, 2020

InRainbows said:
I was never being hard on this game or the fact it doesn't have it.

I just don't get why you quoted me/called my post hilarious. I legitimately do not care whether a game has ray tracing in it or not as long as the picture on my screen is appealing. I think people's fixation on it is kind of silly to be honest.

Deleted member 22750 · Oct 31, 2020

Domcorleone said:
Some people don't care about buzzwords to carry on their console warrioring. The game is the best looking next gen game currently and the lighting system they employed looks fantastic. Who cares either way besides you? If you found out it was using RT does the game suddenly look or play better lol?

Nothing I said wasn't true and it wasn't console warrioring

also raytracing isn't a buzzword

Hydeus · Oct 31, 2020

Fennec said:
What are you implying ? That Second Son pushed early on the PS4 to its limits ? Or that is what people thought at the time ?

It was a launch game wich holds pretty well through the generation. Same for Killzone.

Hernan532 · Oct 31, 2020

It looks great. With RT it will look better but you have always trades off . With the gameplay that we seen of the game i think it's ok to have it without RT and on launch day instead of next year

benzy · Oct 31, 2020

gundamkyoukai said:
I know there a small team but the post was saying it might be rush which i don't think happen .

Yeah they started development in 2017 and never planned for RT. I mean, it would definitely be nice to have some RT effects, but given the trade-off for prioritizing other things to be a launch, it's a good call not to force in ray-tracing. The final assets, lighting, and shadows are ace.

Hey Please · Oct 31, 2020

It is disappointing. Perhaps it would serve Sony well to do a better job at communicating what is or is not part of a title as a selling point. Feels like they have not learned much since obfuscation of the cross gen nature of MM and HZD II. FWIW, at least is not the same colossal misspeak as selling KZ2 render target as in-game fidelity.

The game looks stunning no doubt, and given the static nature of Time of Day and relatively non-destructive nature of the world, the artists can truly tailor make the lighting and how it interacts in the world without the need for RT including Ambient Occlusion, a lesser talked but equally influential feature of RT umbrella. However, RT based shadowing, esp. self shadowing would have been great for this title. Guess I will see how the final product deals with the typical by products current forms of real time lighting.

Tibarn said:
I'm sure that 90% of the "game looks amazing as it is, RT is not necessary" posts would be "the game greatly benefits from RT and can be appreciated in X or Y scene" if RT was confirmed for the game. I agree that this kind of game doesn't really need it though, the development has been kind of rushed it seems sadly, so they prioritized the right things.

The big problem here is how misleading or incomplete Sony's communication about the game (or PS retrocompatibility, or any Ps5 related topic tbh) has been the latest weeks.

I do not know or care for speculating whether the title was rushed or not but the underlined portion hits the nail on the head when it comes to remarking on the nature of many comments in this thread.

InRainbows said:
it's a launch game I get it It's not a huge deal

On the flip side these responses are hilarious. If the game had raytracing these responses would be flipped in the total opposite direction. And there are more of them I haven't even got to quoting yet.

Yep. "Overrated". Sometimes this forum can produce some stunningly silly comments depending on how big of a fan a subset of people are of something.

Since transitioning to polygons, Lighting have been the holy grail for computer graphics. This gen made the biggest jump in fidelity courtesy of shaders that could deal with physically based materials rendering objects to look far more realistically than ever before. RT (and perhaps its more coarser alternatives like SVOGI for now) and its subset of features (a crying shame that developers like to pigeonhole RT as "reflections") will take us the rest of the way, especially in a more dynamic game world.

Knight in Shining Armani said:
That takes care of the mode choice.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

CarterTax · Oct 31, 2020

Would have went with 4K30 for RT but no RT makes Dynamic 4K60 the easy decision. Would have enjoyed seeing it with RT though.

Chaystic · Oct 31, 2020

InRainbows said:
I don't believe you. As I said, the posts would be turned around and be talking about how amazing raytracing is. Instead we get "don't care" "doesn't matter" posts.

Okay bro enjoy your Watch Dogs or Control or whatever game that has raytracing, doesn't change the fact that Demon's Souls is the best looking next gen game, without needing raytracing.

Kyuuji · Oct 31, 2020

InRainbows said:
Nothing I said wasn't true and it wasn't console warrioring

Genuinely reads like it when you're out there trying to gotcha people because they don't think a game not having RT matters, when it's still one of the most visually astounding games we have to date.

EatChildren · Oct 31, 2020

The conversation surrounding ray tracing is going to make this generation long and painful.

Diogo Arez · Oct 31, 2020

The game already looks insane RT or not, I don't mind this change if it really was changed

Uzupedro · Oct 31, 2020

Uh, weird, I thought this part on the IGN interview was talking about having at least Ray Traced Shadows:

It means we can up the resolution of every single tiny pebble in the game, right? The tessellation is incredible and it's all real-time, and it all casts real-time shadows. It's so immersive

Deleted member 22750 · Oct 31, 2020

Kyuuji said:
Genuinely reads like it when you're out there trying to gotcha people because they don't think a game not having RT matters, when it's still one of the most visually astounding games we have to date.

we won't see raytracing in the majority of titles
does that make raytracing "overrated" ?

no it does not

Demon's Souls won't support RayTracing

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