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AIan

Member
Oct 20, 2019
4,867
If 30fps were fine
  • smartphones would run at 30fps instead of 60 or 120
  • game developers wouldn't even try to push for 60 or 120fps
  • there wouldn't be people saying 30fps are not fine in the first place.
If Carl Benz said "Horse carriages are fine. They work!" we wouldn't have cars today.

It's kind of a tricky situation, as some games might benefit a lower FPS for aesthetic reasons while other studios push to top out FPS for maximum performance out of a console and TV setup.

Going back to FPS aesthetics. For example, if you look at film, FPS is set at the standard of 24 frames.
 
OP
OP
60fps

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
That doesn't mean that 30fps isn't fine. Jesus Christ mate. You really gotta get off your high fps horse. Games have run at 20fps and we were fine with it, 30fps fine with it for generations, calm your fucking shit and stop being an ass towards people who think it's fine.
30fps gives me headaches. That's not fine to me.

It's time to leave outdated standards behind. Nobody asks for 240p resolution to come back, although I'm sure some people were fine with it.
Missing some context here, he mentions it looks like a slideshow when you swap over from the 60fps mode which judging by that video it does...
Did you report this thread for the title to get changed?
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,153
30fps gives me headaches. That's not fine to me.

It's time to leave outdated standards behind. Nobody asks for 240p resolution to come back, although I'm sure some people were fine with it.

Did you report this thread for the title to get changed?
Nothing should 'jitter' at 30 fps, only if frame pacing is off.
 

Zedelima

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,720
To be honest and playing miles morales at fidelity mode, im still fine playing on it, really
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
30fps gives me headaches. That's not fine to me.
If you have a vision problem like that, I recommend getting a pc, you can make almost any game run at 60fps even on a cheap pc by just dropping the quality or resolution. Unfortunately, you can't count on game developers changing how they develop all their console games to handle the few people who have such a reaction, not when they already ignore much larger populations such as people with color blindness. And of course they shouldn't just remove 30fps modes as a lot of people prefer the extra visual fidelity over a little bit more smoothness, especially in games that aren't built around perfect reflexes.
 

Xion_Stellar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,287
I don't have any faith in games being able to keep up with 60FPS by the time the PS5 hits it's 3rd year not to mention all the PS4 games that are still cap at 30FPS so I rather not get over exposed or get used to something that's going to be taken away from me eventually with the 60FPS Modes so I been playing Demon's Souls at Graphics Mode since the start and I have not perceived any problems with this.
 

Zem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,971
United Kingdom
Its funny how people say they take visuals over framerate. They are kind of the same. Does anyone legit think that this looks better in cinematic mode than in performance mode?

I think this forum is a little strange and puts too much weight into screenshots for how a game looks / compares when obviously how a game looks in motion is way more important. FPS is absolutely a visual thing but does seem to get ignored most of the time.

I'm really wondering what Naughty Dog will do this gen, if they'll push the 30 fps visuals as far as they can or if they'll give a 60fps option too, I honestly don't know but I'm looking forward to finding out.
 

Zuly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,185
Puerto Rico
Almost every article about eye health recommends setting your monitor to the highest refresh rate. 60fps I too suffer from headaches from low frame rate. I pretty much gave up on consoles since my photo sensitivity got worse with time and have to turn off anything that distorts or blurs the image. I am not sure these days but motion blur is quite common on consoles which may also be triggering your headaches.
 

Moebius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,397
For the people who think 30 fps is fine. Would you like your physical body to move at half the current speed? It's not good.
 

MarcyPoos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
919
Yeah I've been playing at 60fps, tried 30fps expecting a big jump in visual quality and my god it was horrendous. Can't imagine playing at 30fps.
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,370
Do these 'cinematic' modes run faster at 1080p? I expect to keep my TV for many years.
 

Neuroxia

Member
Mar 31, 2019
954
Maybe sometimes you just want to use the higher fidelity of the 30fps mode to grab some nice screenshots or admire the scenery or maybe some people don't mind it.
There's nothing wrong with having more options.
 

Kromeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,872
Options are good and all I suppose, but I'm honestly a little confused as to why they included a 30fps mode in the first place.

In the past I've defitely seen the point, Nioh for example looked a million times better in 30 fps mode even though I didn;t use it in the end. In Demons souls though it still looks great at 60 fps
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,951
For the people who think 30 fps is fine. Would you like your physical body to move at half the current speed? It's not good.

You are implying that either the body or the world will run at slow motion? and someone running a game at 120hz has a physical body which moves faster and someone with a 1000hz something is walking at 66 miles/hr (or when they run, they run at 750 miles/hr?).

30 fps doesn't slow down the game, it only skips every alternative frame when compared to 60 fps.
 

Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,712
For the people who think 30 fps is fine. Would you like your physical body to move at half the current speed? It's not good.
This is a complete misunderstanding on how game framerates work.

I'll give you a hint: move actors don't start moving at 24 frames per second when they're shooting a film.
 

Deleted member 30987

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
301
Objectively thats how You feel first minute. I watched it and it was the sense of the message. He didnt disqualify the mode, just stated the obvious.
Me I checked the quality mode and didn't bother with improved graphics at the cost of half framerate
 

Zeiretto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
325
I don't have any faith in games being able to keep up with 60FPS by the time the PS5 hits it's 3rd year not to mention all the PS4 games that are still cap at 30FPS so I rather not get over exposed or get used to something that's going to be taken away from me eventually with the 60FPS Modes so I been playing Demon's Souls at Graphics Mode since the start and I have not perceived any problems with this.

This is.. I don't even... what? You're not going to play at 60 fps because you're afraid future games will all be 30?
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,246
If nobody pushed for better technology we would still be playing games in 240p - and I bet there would be people here claiming it was "good enough".

This is a bit of an odd angle to take since people aren't arguing against technical advancement in games, they're just suggesting that 30fps is fine to them in a balance between frame rate and advances in other areas. If suddenly every single game released was 60fps there wouldn't be some great outcry, it's just at the moment a number of games offer a mode at 30 if you want to enjoy advances in other aspects of the visual presentation.

Your Carl Benz point - which is really just a rewritten form of the misattributed Henry Ford quote - makes little sense either. People aren't saying they want games to stay at 30fps they're saying while there's a compromise to be had in areas, they're content to play at 30 while enjoying other aspects of modern games. Especially on console where it is commonly an either/or between the two. If you're going to be reductive then you could suggest that if all we cared about was the fastest framerate we'd still be looking at basic geometry and lighting. When neither is true; it's that numerous areas of tech in gaming advance and that frequently you decide which is more important to you as a consumer of the game.

People saying "I don't see an issue with 30fps" aren't preventing games from advancing nor advocating for their stagnation. It's just a statement on whether playing a game at 30 affects their enjoyment or not.
 
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OP
OP
60fps

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
So you can't watch movies or TV? You can't even go to the cinema if 30 fps gives you headaches.
Movies have professional cinematographers who control every frame that is shown, always under consideration of 24fps.

In games you usually control the image yourself.

That's why in 30fps games like Breath of the Wild or Dragon Quest 11 the default camera sensitivity is unbearably slow, as moving the camera too fast will result in a jittery image.

Sure, but we will (soon) get to the point with next-gen consoles where it's either 60FPS or fancier graphics. And I prefer fancier graphics over 60FPS. These are crossgen-games and are expected to run at 60FPS on a new console.
There's nothing fancy about a jittery image, at least to my eyes.

I changed it myself. It's just more accurate to his words, tbh.
In this case I would appreciate if you could capitalize the nouns again, looks nicer :)

This is a bit of an odd angle to take since people aren't arguing against technical advancement in games, they're just suggesting that 30fps is fine to them in a balance between frame rate and advances in other areas. If suddenly every single game released was 60fps there wouldn't be some great outcry, it's just at the moment a number of games offer a mode at 30 if you want to enjoy advances in other aspects of the visual presentation.
I'd say they should keep 30fps modes as long as they are not at the expense of 60fps modes. Because:

If everyone is fine with 60fps, and not everyone is fine with 30fps, naturally we should make 60fps the standard.
 
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nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,128
I am happy to go with 30fps / ray tracing in Miles Morales. Insomniac's animation system works pretty darn well at 30 fps. TLoU2 also feels good at 30 fps. This game, however, definitely seems to have some pretty crazy input lag / ghosting? at 30 fps. I am also trying to figure out the visual differences, it looks a bit more refined maybe? Higher res brings out the detail better? Either way, the 30 fps in this seems sluggish in general. Whereas 60 fps feels very snappy and responsive. It is very obvious the game was developed with 60 fps in mind. I would be fine with 30 fps if it was more responsive and had greater visual disparity, but here we have a stunning looking game that runs consistently at 60 fps and still maintains great IQ. No complaints from me!
 

degauss

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,631
I love me a good 60fps game but this "30 isn't good enough anymore" elitism rubs me the wrong way

solid 30fps are absolutely "good enough" for lots of games still. 60 is obviously better but let's calm down a bit.
Yeah I mean just off the top of my head...Uncharted 2, 3, 4, Last of Us 1, 2 all launched at 30fps, and reviews were stellar. What you didn't see in the reviews was comments like "I tried to enjoy it, but I couldn't get past the 30fps", never happens.

Sure, 60 is better, but 30 is fine for a slow paced game.
 
Oct 7, 2020
1,003
Italy
The 30fps mode in Demon's souls is bad, but there are tons of better 30fps modes out there. I must say it looks so much better than the 60fps mode though.
 

FluffyQuack

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,353
i understand the difference between delta time vs fixed timestep, don't worry. yes, fixed timestep games slow down rather than drop frames, which makes them more manageable when there's inconsistent performance, and most old 2D games do this (it's a simpler way to develop with no real downsides on fixed hardware, after all). but this thread isn't even focused on inconsistent performance: 2D Metal Slug is a fixed timestep game that _targets_ 30fps, and 3D Doom "caps" at 35fps (updating every other frame of VGA mode13h IIRC).

finding 30fps to be a trait that makes a video game _inherently unplayable_ means i probably won't relate to your tastes in the slightest.
I'm pretty sure every Metal Slug game targets 60fps (though the early ones frequently couldn't keep up). I think 60fps is pretty important for a lot of 2D games, especially if they're fast-paced.

I'd probably have a hard time going back to a lot of the games I played as a kid. Consoles and arcade games were 60fps for the most part, but PC gaming (which is what I primarily grew up with) in the 90's wasn't that amazing framerate-wise.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,064
So basically 'My preference is right and everyone who doesn't mind the alternative is wrong' then?

Many, many people on this site alone have said that 30fps is an acceptable trade off for the quality of graphics you can get on console. If you find 30fps to be too low for you then fine but making a blanket statement that it's not good enough when you can see that for countless people it clearly is is just plain wrong.

Fingers crossed that a performance mode become a standard feature going forward but I very much wouldn't expect 30fps to be a thing of the past.
 

Eketra

Member
Mar 22, 2018
23
I think a lot of this discussion is surfacing because many people for the first time have the ability to switch between 30 and 60 during the same gameplay session.

I mean yeah the difference between 30 and 60 is a big one, ofc. But the instant switching is what makes it so unbearable. I also think that's why many people that play mainly on pc are so allergic to 30, because they tried it a few times, capping their game down from 60 to see how it looks and then get this very harsh jump.

If you play with 30 for a while and get used to it from the beginning of the play session, it's a whole other story.
 

CreepingFear

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,766
I don't care about converting the 30 fps preferred crowd, as long as this generation gives me the option for 60 fps. So far, I'm 2/2 with Spiderman Remastered and Miles Morales. I envy the 30 fps crowd, because like the recent Patrick Klepeck article, 60 fps or higher has broken me since 2011 when I built my first Gaming PC. I can't go back.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,064
Not quite sure if you're trying to slap that down as some sort of winning card as that has no relevance to the point?

You said 30fps isn't good enough, plenty of people in this thread alone have said it is.
 

Xion_Stellar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,287
This is.. I don't even... what? You're not going to play at 60 fps because you're afraid future games will all be 30?
It's just like the HD thing to me you can't feel left out on something you actively avoid. It wasn't until Skyrim in November 2011 that finally got me to upgrade from an SD TV to an HD TV because Skyrim didn't properly display on SD TVs.

I been playing games since the NES and believe when I say that I have become very tolerant of fluctuating framerates or lower framerates. Most games in the past 13 years run at 30FPS or unlocked Framerates so I'm not going to sit here and pretend that 60FPS is suddenly the gold standard on consoles now and anything lower than that is a "slideshow"

My biggest pet peeve as far as graphics go on a console is dynamic resolutions and the fact that alot of these games are pushing out Dynamic Resolutions in order to keep that 60FPS just pushed me away even more from Performance Mode.
 
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Just That Simple

self-requested ban
Banned
Mar 23, 2018
886
Not quite sure if you're trying to slap that down as some sort of winning card as that has no relevance to the point?

You said 30fps isn't good enough, plenty of people in this thread alone have said it is.
It honestly depends on the game. Playing a fighting game or an action game like Devil May Cry at 30fps is not a great time.
 
OP
OP
60fps

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
I think a lot of this discussion is surfacing because many people for the first time have the ability to switch between 30 and 60 during the same gameplay session.

I mean yeah the difference between 30 and 60 is a big one, ofc. But the instant switching is what makes it so unbearable. I also think that's why many people that play mainly on pc are so allergic to 30, because they tried it a few times, capping their game down from 60 to see how it looks and then get this very harsh jump.

If you play with 30 for a while and get used to it from the beginning of the play session, it's a whole other story.
You would even get used to play in 240p after a while again.

You can get used to almost anything in life.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,951
I mean yeah the difference between 30 and 60 is a big one, ofc. But the instant switching is what makes it so unbearable. I also think that's why many people that play mainly on pc are so allergic to 30, because they tried it a few times, capping their game down from 60 to see how it looks and then get this very harsh jump.

If you play with 30 for a while and get used to it from the beginning of the play session, it's a whole other story.

Not many people on the PC own hardware to run most games at 60fps at high settings nor are people allergic to 30fps when the framerate goes done, in fact framerate in most games goes down regularly as the framerate is locked to a specific value like on the consoles and dynamic resolution/settings aren't present on every PC game.

Also people getting used to 30fps after a while isn't a whole other story, in fact its pretty obvious and persistent when people are able to differentiate the fps difference. I play some games at 30fps and I always wish the framerate was higher during those times.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Bloodborne being 30 fps in its current form isn't the problem. The frame pacing being so inconsistent is the main issue. 30 fps can be good with proper motion blur and frame pacing.