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Oct 26, 2017
20,440
I'm confused by this notion that there's tens of millions of voters that don't understand the concept of M4A when it's been the core of Bernie's platform and was the focus of a majority of the Dem debates. Like do people really think there's a lot of engaged voters that don't understand M4A? Because that seems unlikely.

It's a bit confusing because the name implies moving everyone onto Medicare plans but Bernie's Medicare for All plan has nothing to do with Medicare and is massively more generous.

This makes parsing "Medicare for All" studies very hard sometimes because it's unclear whether or not they're referring to replacing everyone's insurance with existing Medicare, implementing Bernie's plan, or implementing some Medicare buy-in.
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
relating m4a to coronavirus will open some eyes. That's new to the discussion. The fact that many countries with singlepayer were able to handle this better than us.
some were, some werent. italy is single payer. honestly dont think sp would have made any difrence here, it was pure incompetence/anti intellectualism.
 
Oct 27, 2017
72
.............

Do you know what would allow even fewer people to get sick and come in contact with sick people.

Are you implying Bernie dropping out would do that? There are like, other elections being held Tuesday that aren't for choosing who the democratic nominee is going to be. There is a whole other party running primary elections! Bernie dropping out would barely help reduce the spread! Apologies if I misunderstood but think about this for more than five seconds please
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,295
New York City
I doubt they understand the details, but I think most primery voters undrerstand sander's wants a goverment run/funded health system.
Yeah but I think the details are important on this one. Saying you don't want healthcare for everyone flat out is not insight into nuanced perspective. it's usually because of something that I doubt most people would A: be able to explain B: have accurate information to back up.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
Are you implying Bernie dropping out would do that? There are like, other elections being held Tuesday that aren't for choosing who the democratic nominee is going to be. There is a whole other party running primary elections! Bernie dropping out would barely help reduce the spread! Apologies if I misunderstood but think about this for more than five seconds please

I do think Bernie dropping out of a race he has zero chance of winning and he and Biden telling people to not vote because the race is over would reduce turnout dramatically, yes.
 

Tamanon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,739
Are you implying Bernie dropping out would do that? There are like, other elections being held Tuesday that aren't for choosing who the democratic nominee is going to be. There is a whole other party running primary elections! Bernie dropping out would barely help reduce the spread! Apologies if I misunderstood but think about this for more than five seconds please

Mmm.....I'll agree to disagree on this one. Presidential ticket drives local turnout.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
I'd need data to suggest this is the case. I feel that suggesting that you average voter doesn't understand policy is the easiest bet ever.
People understand it conceptually. That much hasn't changed. I'd imagine a majority of Democratic Primary voters are well aware of Sanders position on healthcare.

Something like 40-60% of the Dem electorate is unaware that Bernie is a socialist, per polling I've heard cited. I wouldn't bet on much of anything.
Well Bernie isn't really much of a Socialist, he's somewhere between Democratic Socialist and Social Democrat given his policy positions. None the less, healthcare is consistently one of the biggest concerns for voters in the primary, and we've all previously operated under the notion that Sanders is "best" on this issue. I have severe doubts there's a huge number of "swing" voters that don't understand Sanders

relating m4a to coronavirus will open some eyes. That's new to the discussion. The fact that many countries with singlepayer were able to handle this better than us.
Many countries with single payer have also failed, mostly due to cultural differences. France has a single payer system and they're seeing cases increase at a similar rate. The UK and Italy as well. Single payer isn't some panacea for combating the virus, and does very little to limit the actual spread of it.

It's a bit confusing because the name implies moving everyone onto Medicare plans but Bernie's Medicare for All plan has nothing to do with Medicare and is massively more generous.

This makes parsing "Medicare for All" studies very hard sometimes because it's unclear whether or not they're referring to replacing everyone's insurance with existing Medicare, implementing Bernie's plan, or implementing some Medicare buy-in.
I'm compelled to agree. David Pakman pointed out in his Bernie Lost video that how you ask the question dramatically changes support for M4A. Bernie's plan specifically of banning the option for private insurance is pretty unpopular, but a system that allows you to buy into Medicare is wildly popular.
 
Oct 27, 2017
72
I do think Bernie dropping out of a race he has zero chance of winning and he and Biden telling people to not vote because the race is over would reduce turnout dramatically, yes.
Mmm.....I'll agree to disagree on this one. Presidential ticket drives local turnout.

Yeah maybe you are right, a minimized amount of new illness vectors and preventable deaths resulting from a reckless need to keep business moving is acceptable. Most of them would be Republican voters anyway.
 
OP
OP
Poodlestrike

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,508
Do you have a link to this?
Not on hand, sadly. I'd recommend checking out The Weeds' episodes on electability and the primary race, they've cited it at least once iirc. Might have been PSA, though.
Well Bernie isn't really much of a Socialist, he's somewhere between Democratic Socialist and Social Democrat given his policy positions. None the less, healthcare is consistently one of the biggest concerns for voters in the primary, and we've all previously operated under the notion that Sanders is "best" on this issue. I have severe doubts there's a huge number of "swing" voters that don't understand Sanders
I think they may or may not understand him, but I think that people don't generally read super in depth on this stuff in the way people who are really dialed in to political discourse think they should. It's about who knows who and who trusts who, as much as the actual nuts and bolts and terminology.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
That doesn't explain his favorables among a lot of those people, or people saying they trust him more than Sanders, even PoC.

Conditioning and media effects all of us. Most Americans aren't informed or are desensitized to the things Biden has done.

My understanding was that Muslims and Latinos broke for Bernie?

Decisively, in addition Sanders was has high support from Asians, Native Americans, and most others. Sanders was trending upwards and to potentially split of win the AA vote before the Clyburn endorsement, which was massive with late deciders (that make up the majority of voters) along with the consolidation behind Biden just before ST. What that move by (high profile in party endorsements etc) the establishment did is signal a 'winner' to voters, which dramatically altered the composition of the race on top of all of the bumps Biden then received from winning ST and so forth. The party decides, and they closed ranks hard.
 
On discussion around voting and COVID-19
OP
OP
Poodlestrike

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,508
Official Staff Communication
This has mostly died down now, but to be clear:

No, encouraging people to vote is not inherently dangerous. And no, the other side is not "endangering people" by not dropping out (this is true no matter which side you're on; we've seen you both make this point, explicitly or implicitly). COVID-19 is not an excuse to engage in transparent factional mudflinging. Going forward, attempting to concern troll about COVID regarding either candidate is against thread rules and will be moderated as such.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,007
Official Staff Communication
This has mostly died down now, but to be clear:

No, encouraging people to vote is not inherently dangerous. And no, the other side is not "endangering people" by not dropping out (this is true no matter which side you're on; we've seen you both make this point, explicitly or implicitly). COVID-19 is not an excuse to engage in transparent factional mudflinging. Going forward, attempting to concern troll about COVID regarding either candidate is against thread rules and will be moderated as such.
What about armchair neurological diagnosing people with dementia and concern trolling about it?

There have been numerous people in this thread that suffer from and/or know people who suffer from neurological and mental health issues that have mentioned how hurtful this is. Nothing has been done about it even after reporting posts.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
What about armchair neurological diagnosing people with dementia and concern trolling about it?

There have been numerous people in this thread that suffer from and/or know people who suffer from neurological and mental health issues that have mentioned how hurtful this is. Nothing has been done about it even after reporting posts.

Was it offensive when this forum spent years insisting Trump has dementia or any number of other undiagnosed illnesses
 
Oct 27, 2017
72
Official Staff Communication
This has mostly died down now, but to be clear:

No, encouraging people to vote is not inherently dangerous. And no, the other side is not "endangering people" by not dropping out (this is true no matter which side you're on; we've seen you both make this point, explicitly or implicitly). COVID-19 is not an excuse to engage in transparent factional mudflinging. Going forward, attempting to concern troll about COVID regarding either candidate is against thread rules and will be moderated as such.

Honest question, what possible discussions about COVID in this thread couldn't potentially be read as "concern trolling" to someone if they disagree with that position? This virus is going to be THE major factor in our lives for months at least, discussing its impact on who the president is going to be for the next four years seems like it will be highly relevant and these guidelines aren't clear at all. Both Democratic candidates and Trump have had drastically differing responses to the crisis and promoting one of their proposals over another could be easily interpreted as "factional mudslinging" by bad faith posters, so where is the line drawn?

And yes, encouraging people to go vote in person, in a public place with hundreds of strangers, on Tuesday IS inherently dangerous. This is info that has been blasted all over the place by health experts for weeks and a well informed community like this should take it seriously, especially the mod team.
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,674
Although he's obviously known as a Center/Center-Left Democrat, Biden has always been to the left of Obama on certain issues and even nudged the administration in that direction sometimes. He's definitely moved more to the left over the decades.
 

loquaciousJenny

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,457
Official Staff Communication
This has mostly died down now, but to be clear:

No, encouraging people to vote is not inherently dangerous. And no, the other side is not "endangering people" by not dropping out (this is true no matter which side you're on; we've seen you both make this point, explicitly or implicitly). COVID-19 is not an excuse to engage in transparent factional mudflinging. Going forward, attempting to concern troll about COVID regarding either candidate is against thread rules and will be moderated as such.
What about the people not so quietly hoping for elderly to get sick so Bernie can pull an above zero chance of victory out of his hat
 

shem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
User Banned (1 Week): Violating the staff post in regards to hostility and COVID-19 concern trolling
Honest question, what possible discussions about COVID in this thread couldn't potentially be read as "concern trolling" to someone if they disagree with that position? This virus is going to be THE major factor in our lives for months at least, discussing its impact on who the president is going to be for the next four years seems like it will be highly relevant and these guidelines aren't clear at all. Both Democratic candidates and Trump have had drastically differing responses to the crisis and promoting one of their proposals over another could be easily interpreted as "factional mudslinging" by bad faith posters, so where is the line drawn?

And yes, encouraging people to go vote in person, in a public place with hundreds of strangers, on Tuesday IS inherently dangerous. This is info that has been blasted all over the place by health experts for weeks and a well informed community like this should take it seriously, especially the mod team.

Encouraging people to vote in a primary that by all accounts should be over would be inherently dangerous if you were the one prolonging it maybe. Sanders wants the primary to continue so it continues. Not 5 days ago he was telling voters to stay in line and vote. Did we not have covid then?

It's a dumbass galaxy brain take fit for a meme and low effort post in auto replies to twitter comments. Spare me.
 

infamous5445

Member
Dec 3, 2019
951
People want Biden to move more left, but when he actually tries too, you also have people calling him a liar and saying he actually won't do it. Like what the fuck do people want.
 
Oct 27, 2017
72
Encouraging people to vote in a primary that by all accounts should be over would be inherently dangerous if you were the one prolonging it maybe. Sanders wants the primary to continue so it continues. Not 5 days ago he was telling voters to stay in line and vote. Did we not have covid then?

It's a dumbass galaxy brain take fit for a meme and low effort post in auto replies to twitter comments. Spare me.

The primary for the democratic presidental nominee is not the only primary. It is inherently dangerous for ANY of these elections to still be going forward, especially now that Arizona and Illinois are closing (consolidating) polling locations. I'm not defending Sanders and already said in a previous post he should not be encouraging people to vote and his campaign needs to publically call for them to be postponed. You'll notice his campaign hasn't left disinformation about how the virus spreads up on their main twitter for hours though, unlike another fella's!
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,457
Honest question, what possible discussions about COVID in this thread couldn't potentially be read as "concern trolling" to someone if they disagree with that position? This virus is going to be THE major factor in our lives for months at least, discussing its impact on who the president is going to be for the next four years seems like it will be highly relevant and these guidelines aren't clear at all. Both Democratic candidates and Trump have had drastically differing responses to the crisis and promoting one of their proposals over another could be easily interpreted as "factional mudslinging" by bad faith posters, so where is the line drawn?

And yes, encouraging people to go vote in person, in a public place with hundreds of strangers, on Tuesday IS inherently dangerous. This is info that has been blasted all over the place by health experts for weeks and a well informed community like this should take it seriously, especially the mod team.
It's not that complicated, really. Saying things like "I hope the virus won't spread because of voting in general" is very different than "I hope the virus won't spread because Bernie wouldn't drop out" or "because Biden told people to go vote".

You can discuss health concerns in general without making it about your preferred candidate.
 

shem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
The primary for the democratic presidental nominee is not the only primary. It is inherently dangerous for ANY of these elections to still be going forward, especially now that Arizona and Illinois are closing (consolidating) polling locations. I'm not defending Sanders and already said in a previous post he should not be encouraging people to vote and his campaign needs to publically call for them to be postponed. You'll notice his campaign hasn't left disinformation about how the virus spreads up on their main twitter for hours though, unlike another fella's!

I mean yes I agree. Ideally we could summon complete vote by mail elections, or postpone the contests. But we can't because the government is sitting on its hands and also the primary is still going on. The bulk of the turnout is the primary, that is the chief concern. If it can't realistically be delayed, which is outside of either candidates control, then its just a shit sandwich. It comes down to polling place safety precautions but you can't realistically expect either candidate to discourage people from voting. That makes no sense in context.
 
Oct 27, 2017
72
It's not that complicated, really. Saying things like "I hope the virus won't spread because of voting in general" is very different than "I hope the virus won't spread because Bernie wouldn't drop out" or "because Biden told people to go vote".

You can discuss health concerns in general without making it about your preferred candidate.

Thank you, this sounds like a fair way to delineate concern trolling from sincere posts.
 

less

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,848
Biden making all the moves he should be. He wants this shit done and over with so he can focus on Trump.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,007
It's not that complicated, really. Saying things like "I hope the virus won't spread because of voting in general" is very different than "I hope the virus won't spread because Bernie wouldn't drop out" or "because Biden told people to go vote".

You can discuss health concerns in general without making it about your preferred candidate.
Poodlestrike will not address this so perhaps you can answer it instead?

What about armchair neurological diagnosing people with dementia and concern trolling about it?

There have been numerous people in this thread that suffer from and/or know people who suffer from neurological and mental health issues that have mentioned how hurtful this is. Nothing has been done about it even after reporting posts.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,890
I wonder if that announcement will have an effect on the tone of the debate.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
People want Biden to move more left, but when he actually tries too, you also have people calling him a liar and saying he actually won't do it. Like what the fuck do people want.
They want to "win" more than they want the policies they claim to advocate for in place. Biden is the most left leaning candidate we've had in decades (as was Hillary for that matter), and plenty of people don't care because he's not Bernie/Harris/Warren/etc.
 

Copper

Banned
Nov 13, 2017
666
The green transition plan is the most important thing on a global scale. Everything else is a distant second. People are scared of the Corona now? Wait until some climate event collapse our food supply chain, or warming moves malaria north.

Press For The GND
 
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