Do you know the difference between a slogan and policy?Yes hope and change is the apothesis of the liberal moderates lol. Obama did not run as a moderate. And frankly, I don't believe you. Nor is it really relevant.
Do you know the difference between a slogan and policy?Yes hope and change is the apothesis of the liberal moderates lol. Obama did not run as a moderate. And frankly, I don't believe you. Nor is it really relevant.
I didn't discredit them tho?The people of each state are voting, can somebody explain how you guys want to discredit that ??
The people are voting on who they want to take on Trump, I just don't understand how the majority of of people can vote on a person yet you think someone that keeps losing will win versus Trump.
Well what's the solution then, beyond broad societal culture shift.*shrug* Being cynical about it doesn't make it any less true. The double-standard exists, and pretending it doesn't won't make it go away.
Healthcare was a pretty huge step left and was his central platform. No one was chanting about Obama going "he'll only moderately change things!". Trying to retroactively suggest he ran a moderate campaign is ahistorical.
Obamacare, previously known as Romneycare, was a moderate GOP plan from before they went completely insane. It was not the leftist position on healthcare at the time, which was a public option. That same public option that Biden is running on now which is now supposedly totally garbage.Healthcare was a pretty huge step left and was his central platform. No one was chanting about Obama going "he'll only moderate;y change things!". Trying to retroactively suggest he ran a moderate campaign is ahistorical.
You can't run on "change" coming off of an immensely popular President from your own party. But guess what, no one runs on being a "centrist." And I know you're going to argue that Biden saying he can work with Republicans means he is, but guess what, of the three, only Clinton ran acknowledging the impossibility of working across the aisle. And she lost.He didn't run on a centrist campaign tho. He ran on hope and change, and pushing healthcare which was nowhere near a moderate position.
Biden is on the way to win nomination, Bernie has much less paths after Biden won MII've been totally out of the loop even before the second ST, due to this corona thing. What is going on in the race?
I've been totally out of the loop even before the second ST, due to this corona thing. What is going on in the race?
Happens.ugh cause this isn't the thread for that. it's massively OT!
edit: Oh shit. this is the thread for that. I thought this was the press conference thread. 🤦♂️
This primary is serving as a good reminder that people generally vote for candidates, not platforms.not even a literal pandemic is enough for the American left to consider supporting a Medicare for all candidate.
What Obama eventually passed and what he ran on were not the same thing lol.Obamacare, previously known as Romneycare, was a moderate GOP plan from before they went completely insane. It was not the leftist position on healthcare at the time, which was a public option. That same public option that Biden is running on now which is now supposedly totally garbage.
You didn't have to run on the same slogan as the previous candidate to not run as a moderate.You can't run on "change" coming off of an immensely popular President from your own party. But guess what, no one runs on being a "centrist." And I know you're going to argue that Biden saying he can work with Republicans means he is, but guess what, of the three, only Clinton ran acknowledging the impossibility of working across the aisle. And she lost.
In addition, Clinton ran, and Biden is running, on improving healthcare, just not in the way you think would be best. And that's a perfectly valid standpoint to have. But you aren't the general American public, and judging by the midterms, where moderates performed well in the areas Clinton lost, the notion that a moderate can never win a presidential election has no basis.
Well what's the solution then, beyond broad societal culture shift.
The healthcare plan Obama ran on was significantly more conservative than the plan Biden is running on. Does that make Biden a progressive?What Obama eventually passed and what he ran on were not the same thing lol.
I'd go with narcissism. Hence the "Biden was nice to me so I like him" stuff that came out and utter inability to ever change.Tuesday is FL, Ohio, Il, and Arizona. Setting aside Fl, if he take Ls like he did in Mi in the other states , and continues to run afterwards? then he is doing it just out of vanity
There is a vast difference between where we are now in terms of healthcare then where we were in 08 when Obama ran, and you know that. Comparing Biden to candidates 12 years ago to shield him from the fact that hes to the right of virtually everyone else running on the platform in 2020 is just disingenuous whataboutism.The healthcare plan Obama ran on was significantly more conservative than the plan Biden is running on. Does that make Biden a progressive?
Sigh. OK.There is a vast difference between where we are now in terms of healthcare then where we were in 08 when Obama ran, and you know that. Comparing Biden to candidates 12 years ago to shield him from the fact that hes to the right of virtually everyone else running on the platform in 2020 is just disingenuous whataboutism.
Let's stop pretending like the minor differences between Obamacare and The Public Option are in any way significant.The healthcare plan Obama ran on was significantly more conservative than the plan Biden is running on. Does that make Biden a progressive?
Well, that's certinly a valid topic for debate, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the context of my post.Let's stop pretending like the minor differences between Obamacare and The Public Option are in any way significant.
The framing of the healthcare conversation should be that there is a bare minimum of what we need to solve the healthcare issue (Single Payer), and there is everything else that is utterly insufficient and unacceptable. I don't care if a little less people will die with Bidens plan, it's still unacceptable and not a solution to the problem we are facing.
Apologies for the rant, that was just my way of saying that Biden's healthcare plan being to the left of Obama's doesn't make him a progressive.Well, that's certinly a valid topic for debate, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the context of my post.
Right, and I agree with you. But on that same turn I don't think Obama's plan made him one either.Apologies for the rant, that was just my way of saying that Biden's healthcare doesn't make him a progressive.
No, what's totally disingenuous is ignoring how much the Democratic party has moved to the left in the last ten years and that you and people like you are pretending that Biden's platform, which is definitely more left than Obama's and in some ways Clinton's, is status quo centrism and would not be a significant shift leftwards and importantly, about as left as the majority of the persuadable electorate is comfortable with, particularly when the actual alternative to Biden at this point is a continuation of a far right government of corrupt, racist, neo fascists that is currently bungling a global health crisis because they're also massively incompetent.There is a vast difference between where we are now in terms of healthcare then where we were in 08 when Obama ran, and you know that. Comparing Biden to candidates 12 years ago to shield him from the fact that hes to the right of virtually everyone else running on the platform in 2020 is just disingenuous whataboutism.
I wouldn't trust Biden to tie my shoes if I'm honest but at this point it's the best shot we're gonna get because the alternative is basically full trottle toward collapse (as this admin's way of deal with Covid19 is any indication).You're right this isn't the end of anything. I just feel like true progress is never going to come in this country. And I have zero faith in Biden or any Republican to take much needed measures on critical issues like Climate change. The obstacles to progress seem insurmountable.
Well then I guess we will just have to agree to agree? lolRight, and I agree with you. But on that same turn I don't think Obama's plan made him one either.
Always nice when that happens.
The healthcare plan Obama ran on was significantly more conservative than the plan Biden is running on. Does that make Biden a progressive?
Umm, yeah I know. It was a rhetorical question.... Obama's plan was a dozen years ago. No, that doesn't make Biden a progressive, Jesus, lol.
I'll just leave these hereYou're right this isn't the end of anything. I just feel like true progress is never going to come in this country.
You can't rock up to a national election and expect to win it in one go outside of the most sapphire blue districts. This is why progressive causes get nowhere. You need to start locally and on the state level. You need to make inroads that way to build to regional dominance. No one is going to elect some nobody that no one knows or has any reason to trust. You're a snake oil salesman as far as they're concerned. You need to make connections with local organizations outside of your own and outside of the purely political ones. Then you'll have an easier time gaining a national presence.
Because this is historically how parties shift. A movement, be it organic or manufactured grows, starts eating seats, and either merges into an existing party and throws around its weight (see the Tea Party) or waits for one of the two main parties to die before claiming its spot (Republicans). The disparate Progressive and Socialist movements around the country are concerning themselves far too much with claiming national seats while not doing nearly enough to prime for national level runs through state and local actions. You don't have to wait your turn, but inbetween attempts to jump ahead you should be filling the line with more of your people.
I'm not the one making stuff up. I also never said Biden wasn't to the left of Obama and its weird people keep trying to make up this strawman within this discussion. Running to the left of Obama is currently the moderate position within the party, because the overton window has shifted much further left. And saying that people aren't comfortable with further left leaning ideas is silly given even the majority of republicans support M4a.No, what's totally disingenuous is ignoring how much the Democratic party has moved to the left in the last ten years and that you and people like you are pretending that Biden's platform, which is definitely more left than Obama's and in some ways Clinton's, is status quo centrism and would not be a significant shift leftwards and importantly, about as left as the majority of the persuadable electorate is comfortable with, particularly when the actual alternative to Biden at this point is a continuation of a far right government of corrupt, racist, neo fascists that is currently bungling a global health crisis because they're also massively incompetent.
Umm, yeah I know. It was a rhetorical question.
Neither Biden or Obama are progressives.
They will. They always do. It's the young people who have disappointed us time and time again.Obama ran on, and excited young people, with the language of progressivism, though. Biden ain't going to do that. Better hope the olds show up.
She's currently got 0 delegates. Literally everyone who made it to at least one primary election is beating her.Let's say in some dark hypothetical that the Coronavirus infects Trump, Biden, and Bernie... would Gabbard be basically an automatic shoo-in to be the president?
Obama absolutely ran as a moderate.
I know, I worked on his campaign.
Obama ran on, and excited young people, with the language of progressivism, though. Biden ain't going to do that. Better hope the olds show up.
Young people are the ones that don't show up, as we saw with Bernie.Obama ran on, and excited young people, with the language of progressivism, though. Biden ain't going to do that. Better hope the olds show up.
Fun part is that when people drop out of the primary they say they "suspend" their campaign.She's currently got 0 delegates. Literally everyone who made it to at least one primary election is beating her.
She's currently got 0 delegates. Literally everyone who made it to at least one primary election is beating her.
They will. They always do. It's the young people who have disappointed us time and time again.
She's currently got 0 delegates. Literally everyone who made it to at least one primary election is beating her.
You're quoting an article that talks about how Obama's previous standpoints stand in contrast to his then current platform to prove Obama ran for the Presidency as a progressive?Absolute bullshit.
From 2007:
Liberal views could haunt Obama
As Republicans lick their chops, the senator’s advisers say he has a record of being progressive yet pragmatic.www.politico.com
He opposed the death penalty, endorsed the concept of single-payer health care, and would support restrictions on the possession of handguns, supported issuing driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants, raising taxes on high earners, and granting early release to individuals imprisoned on drug charges.
By contrast Clinton's platform demonstrated "realism" and "caution."
She actually has 2.She's currently got 0 delegates. Literally everyone who made it to at least one primary election is beating her.
Nobody's 'excited' young people more than Bernie with the language of progressivism, and they flat out wouldn't show up for him. The olds have already shown up. They always do.
Any campaign that primarily is supported by young people is doomed to failure. Tale as old as time. You need more, something Bernie never learned.
I'm not the one making stuff up. I also never said Biden wasn't to the left of Obama and its weird people keep trying to make up this strawman within this discussion. Running to the left of Obama is currently the moderate position within the party, because the overton window has shifted much further left. And saying that people aren't comfortable with further left leaning ideas is silly given even the majority of republicans support M4a.
'Incredible': New Poll That Shows 70% of Americans Support Medicare for All Includes 84% of Democrats and 52% of Republicans
"Don't tell anyone but, uh, we're gonna win."www.commondreams.org
And people keep pointing out Trump is the opposite end of Biden but it fails to reconcile that Biden and the moderates approach is exactly the condition that gives us the trumps, the Ws, etc. Its doing nothing to imporve the material conditions of the people, and its why they lost to donald fucking trump in the first place. Stop trying to win on a campaign of "we'll kill you slightly slower than the other people!" and try running on something thats going to fundamentally fix the issues at hand, issues that as pointed above are widely supported by the public.
Let's say in some dark hypothetical that the Coronavirus infects Trump, Biden, and Bernie... would Gabbard be basically an automatic shoo-in to be the president?
No. The Delegates for that candidate would be released and become free agents at the convention. You'd get someone aligned with Biden's backers.Let's say in some dark hypothetical that the Coronavirus infects Trump, Biden, and Bernie... would Gabbard be basically an automatic shoo-in to be the president?
You're quoting an article that talks about how Obama's previous standpoints stand in contrast to his then current platform to prove Obama ran for the Presidency as a progressive?
It seems to prove he ran away from that label.
Because you need those people to win the WH. Or you can keep trying the neoliberal thing and see how that works out. It very well could end up outting Trump in November. But even if it does its only going to continue laying the groundwork for future Trumps to come into office because it wont be doing enough to fix the problems that led to him.Why would people take advice on how to win from diehard supporters of a candidate who's currently losing by margins of 20%+ in states across the country?
Universal Healthcare delivered in a method similar to one of the EU countries that uses a multipayer system for delivery would absolutely improve the "material conditions" for people. What it would not do is make people happy who value "taking down capitalism" above anything else.