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KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
I'm pretty sure M4A is kind of a cornerstone of the current progressive platforms. Why are you implying it's some personal pipedream?

M4a being more progressive doesn't mean a public option isn't also progressive. I'm not sure what the confusion is.

M4a will not pass into law now or anytime soon. It's not even guaranteed if democrats control the senate because many of them are not to the left of the platform like Biden is since they represent more conservative areas.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,050
"Those who cannot bend, break"



Christ, imagine how stupid and/or arrogant you have to be to never once reach out to the other losing candidates for their support, and then be SURPRISED when they all flock to the candidate who does reach out to them.

Truly is amazing that for a self avowed socialist, Sanders is utterly dogshit at being, well, social...
 

abutteredpig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
83
I'm not sure I follow. This whole train of quotes stemmed from someone basically saying both parties are the same if you looked them up. And they're not. Is telling someone that Biden is pushing for progressive policies not persuasive and causing people to feel spite?

I guess I'm just not seeing what you're saying because to me the "both parties are the same" is the worst rhetoric.

I might have missed where this all originally started. I agree that "both parties are the same" is bad rhetoric and self-defeating. It's about tone in general.

There's a difference between showing someone that Biden, while maybe doesn't go as far as you want, does have good policies and can make a difference---versus calling somneone a liar over and over again (I'm not saying you are doing this). If someone doesn't want to listen to an argument, fine, but people are never going to listen to you if they feel attacked or belittled. Note: I'm not trying to accuse you of doing this, it's just a general point from what I see all over the site
 

ArjanN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,114
Christ, imagine how stupid and/or arrogant you have to be to never once reach out to the other losing candidates for their support, and then be SURPRISED when they all flock to the candidate who does reach out to them.

Truly is amazing that for a self avowed socialist, Sanders is utterly dogshit at being, well, social...

Sure, that's why the other candidates flocked to Biden, lol.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,494
Richmond, VA
"Those who cannot bend, break"



Brutal.

Longabaugh, the former adviser who was a central member of the 2016 campaign, recalled urging Sanders to spend the three years in between his presidential bids building relationships inside Democratic Party structures like the big unions or the Congressional Black Caucus.

More often than not, he said, the senator resisted.

This is just baffling.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,106
I might have missed where this all originally started. I agree that "both parties are the same" is bad rhetoric and self-defeating. It's about tone in general.

There's a difference between showing someone that Biden, while maybe doesn't go as far as you want, does have good policies and can make a difference---versus calling somneone a liar over and over again (I'm not saying you are doing this). If someone doesn't want to listen to an argument, fine, but people are never going to listen to you if they feel attacked or belittled. Note: I'm not trying to accuse you of doing this, it's just a general point from what I see all over the site
I guess I can't disagree with this. It does get annoying to constantly have to deal with people attacking something they've made zero effort to even gain knowledge on but you get further by being nicer about how you deal with it.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
Hillary was hated but popular. Bernie is also popular. Outside of our politics circle, Joe is not that popular. How are they going to sell him to the general?

The sell on Biden is a) that he was Obama's VP and b) that he isn't Trump. It's more of a negative sell rather than a positive one and Biden is going to have to run a very negative campaign in order to win, because all he really has to talk about is how bad Trump is (and there's a lot to talk about there!). The president actually has a record to be criticized on now. But on the other hand, Biden has a very long and mixed record himself to be attacked on. Some of it is going to really hurt, like the race stuff, and support for cutting the social services.

This is just a bad outcome for the country in general. It's unfortunate. Both presidential campaigns will spend over a billion dollars, mostly on attack ads. The debates are going to be entertaining though so there's that.
 

Pilgrimzero

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,129
M4a being more progressive doesn't mean a public option isn't also progressive. I'm not sure what the confusion is.

M4a will not pass into law now or anytime soon. It's not even guaranteed if democrats control the senate because many of them are not to the left of the platform like Biden is since they represent more conservative areas.

Its going to be a good 10-20 years until its even a maybe now.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Hell, Berniecrats had a bad habit of labeling everything that wasn't Bernie's specific policy as being status quo corporate stooge centrism. That kind of "My way or the highway" politics wasn't exactly effective at expanding his voter base.

But for all the revisionism at play here, Sanders did expand his voter base.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,012
I mean, this is ultimately why it was so easy to sideline Sanders as a candidate. It's pretty hard to take control of a party when you have no stable relationship with said party, and its incumbent leaders.

People aren't too jazzed to follow someone who makes it clear they don't think they need them.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Exact same thing happened after SC in 2016 - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/17/us/politics/bernie-sanders-black-voters-outreach.html

When he was told "you need to campaign in the south to try and fix your black voter margins or you're done" by his black voter outreach team, he ignored them and instead just abandoned the South completely.

It's not the exact same thing. Sanders dislikes and distrusts the establishment (as well he should, fuck em), but the campaign itself did a LOT differently this time in terms of integrating and expanding the composition of its own operations and outreach beyond whites. Sanders should have played more ball with the establishment, and he should have saved the energy and vitriol that prompted comments like 'the Democratic establishment is getting nervous' for Biden specifically. Sanders made mistakes, his campaign made mistakes, but he was also playing on extreme difficulty Dante Must Die mode.
 

xfactor99

Member
Oct 28, 2017
729
Bernie and Biden are friends. Why can't we all be friends too?


Yeah this is obvious, Bernie always calls Biden a good friend before critiquing him, whereas it was clear he and Hillary hated each others guts lol.

Of course the far leftists on twitter will take the wrong lesson from this and say that if only Bernie was more aggressive in calling out Biden, he would have won, and that the next candidate needs to be even more combative towards the establishment.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
It's not the exact same thing. Sanders dislikes and distrusts the establishment (as well he should, fuck em), but the campaign itself did a LOT differently this time in terms of integrating and expanding the composition of its own operations and outreach beyond whites. Sanders should have played more ball with the establishment, and he should have saved the energy and vitriol that prompted comments like 'the Democratic establishment is getting nervous' for Biden specifically. Sanders made mistakes, his campaign made mistakes, but he was also playing on extreme difficulty Dante Must Die mode.
After he lost SC, Bernie didn't attend the 55th anniversary commemoration that even Bloomberg attended. He went to a rally in CA instead.

After losing Super Tuesday, Bernie cancelled his events in Mississippi in favor of going to Michigan. Bernie is nonviable in Mississippi statewide.

He literally did the exact same thing in 2016 than in 2020. The campaign didn't do anything differently!
so his Latino outreach and growth in support never happened?
His latino support was already really high in 2016- he won it 55/45 vs Hillary. Age is playing a part here, the median age for the demographic is a lot lower than with black or white americans. Bernie ended up retaining his black/latino support from 2016 for the most part, its the white support that crashed through the floor. There were some exit polls in Michigan showing this pretty starkly where Bernie was the same with black voters and down 20 with white ones.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
its kind of hilarious how quickly hispanics and muslims disappeared from the centrist mind once they started voting for bernie. they love throwing us under the bus though so it ain't a new feeling.

Yep, and yet the second a minority group breaks for a centrists... well you know the drill.

In practice a lot of centrists don't give a flying fuck about other people.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984

This says a lot about you. His growth in appealing to Asians, Hispanics, Muslims, and Native Americans is well documented.

Prior to being screwed by the pre ST situation he was even growing among black voters and showing signs of overtaking Biden. I mean Texas especially was looking very promising (hence why the GOPclosed down hundreds of polling Texas stations on the eve of ST in minority, Latino, and Black areas.
 
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Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
After he lost SC, Bernie didn't attend the 55th anniversary commemoration that even Bloomberg attended. He went to a rally in CA instead.

After losing Super Tuesday, Bernie cancelled his events in Mississippi in favor of going to Michigan. Bernie is nonviable in Mississippi statewide.

He literally did the exact same thing in 2016 than in 2020. The campaign didn't do anything differently!

So your answer is a false equivalency. Think about what was going on during those times, and how internal polling was looking. Sanders cancelled and did not attend because Mississippi was now a lost cause with Michigan having the potential to be saved. After Bidens win in SC there was the consolidation around Biden occurring.

The campaign did a ton different especially when it came to hiring and outreach.
 

Goat Mimicry

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,920
"Those who cannot bend, break"



I had assumed Bernie and Warren left Biden to his own devices because they were too afraid to rock the boat too much when Obama is still very popular, but Bernie doing it just because he likes Joe is weak as fuck.

I knew everyone was running for second place, but I assumed they at least had sensible (if cowardly) reasons for leaving Joe alone. God damn, that stings.

It's kinda amazing how much Biden has been vilified when even Bernie himself thinks well of the guy.

He's a good friend with the Republican who brought that snowball to congress to deny global warming, so at this point I don't think he judges a person's character as much as he judges how nice someone is to him. It fits perfectly with a lot of his hires and who he has supported in the past.
 

Starmud

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,443
Bernie has been hurt by Bernie and his campaign many times, his messaging is popular and has a broad base of support... but when it comes to working with people and building the relationships to get things done it always crumbles. the story about warren isn't surprising at all but you would have hoped they reflected on what did and didn't work in 2016. i always agreed with Bernie for the most part on policy but this has always been the biggest stumbling block for me trying to support him. You have to be able to get things done and compromise, he was never going to get a mandate for radical change in DC.

The saddest part about this election is it should have been a policy debate, because we have a ton of issues that require much bigger ideas. The fact is that voters are showing this is about trump and his removal first. The left is willing to compromise on someone they see as moderate or centrist as an offer to voters to just get trump out. Biden was never the candidate about structural change, it was a flight to safety, something known. Biden saying himself he viewed this as a bridge to the future is fitting... because thats what it is.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
So your answer is a false equivalency. Think about what was going on during those times, and how internal polling was looking. Sanders cancelled and did not attend because Mississippi was now a lost cause with Michigan having the potential to be saved. After Bidens win in SC there was the consolidation around Biden occurring.

The campaign did a ton different especially when it came to hiring and outreach.
In both cases, Sanders' numbers with black voters were revealed to be nightmarishly bad to the point they singlehandedly made him nonviable for the nomination. In both cases, Sanders ran rather than campaign in the south to try and fix those margins.

Hiring a diverse staff who aren't going to be able to get Sanders to not make the same mistakes again doesn't fix the fundamental issue at play, which appears to just be Sanders himself.
 

Cat Party

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,418
I think Dem voters still very much like Bernie. But they are just laser focused on beating Trump right now. So it's not about who has the best policies, but who Dem voters think beats Trump.

If Biden beats Trump, I think these supposed divisions within the party will mostly evaporate. A good chunk of Bernie's platform will become part of the Dem legislative agenda, even if it gets softened a little bit.

Bernie "Stannis Baratheon" Sanders

Biden is Ramses in this comparison (lol) but who is Brienne?
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,389
So your answer is a false equivalency. Think about what was going on during those times, and how internal polling was looking. Sanders cancelled and did not attend because Mississippi was now a lost cause with Michigan having the potential to be saved. After Bidens win in SC there was the consolidation around Biden occurring.

The campaign did a ton different especially when it came to hiring and outreach.

It didn't do enough, that's the thing. It's important to state how he got the support of the Latino and Muslim community, but his failure to really dig into the south was his doom.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. He should have partnered up with the Poor People's Campaign. Sanders' messages overlaps with that movement. Fuck, it goes further than his. I actually expected him to partner with that group when he talked about making all states viable. They're housed miles from South Carolina.
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,712
LA
The sell on Biden is a) that he was Obama's VP and b) that he isn't Trump. It's more of a negative sell rather than a positive one and Biden is going to have to run a very negative campaign in order to win, because all he really has to talk about is how bad Trump is (and there's a lot to talk about there!). The president actually has a record to be criticized on now. But on the other hand, Biden has a very long and mixed record himself to be attacked on. Some of it is going to really hurt, like the race stuff, and support for cutting the social services.

This is just a bad outcome for the country in general. It's unfortunate. Both presidential campaigns will spend over a billion dollars, mostly on attack ads. The debates are going to be entertaining though so there's that.

I agree, I guess Joe's plan will be to attack Trump and get an anti-Trump surge. But with Joe's history, the attacks back on him will also be really easy, and laser focused on voter suppression, they will target AA (his segregation/crime history), young people (m4a, war, and climate change), and Latinos (massive deportation numbers under Obama, starting the detention camps).

I don't doubt the fact, that there's a real surge of anti-Trump democrat voters. But the data shows that Joe's surge numbers come from a base that already turns out to vote no matter what. They are AA, and older voters. AA overwhelmingly vote democrat, older voters consistently turn out to vote in high numbers, these things are constant. The real turn outs Joe needs to beat Trump, has to come from white/middle to lower class voters, from younger voters, and from Latino voters (Hillary had overwhelming Latino support in her pocket). How many in those demographics will feel like Joe will change enough for them to get them out to vote.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,119
Already forgot he won Cali?
With a smaller percentage and fewer votes than he lost California with last time. Even if you Add Warren's total to his (which you can't do, because Warren's voters were fairly evenly split between him and Biden), he barely edges out his 2016 numbers and still loses to 2016 Hillary.

Edit: That's the problem with Sanders' campaign in general. He was never actually ahead. His goal was to cruise to first place by ignoring 70% of the voters and clinging tightly to 30%. What the fuck even IS that plan? It couldn't last, it was unsustainable unless everyone stayed in until the end.
 

Jiggy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,287
wherever
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