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doomrider7

Member
Feb 21, 2019
676
How do I reconcile this idea with his, "Nothing will fundamentally change" talk he gave the elites not long ago when I'm trying to convince people to hold their nose and vote for him in Nov?

www.vox.com

Joe Biden has been talking about income inequality a lot lately — to his rich donors

Biden has done more fundraisers than campaign events so far this year.

Biden has also floated the idea of closing tax loopholes and getting rid of exemptions that benefit the rich at these events. He recently noted that during the presidency of Republican Ronald Reagan, there existed around $800 billion worth of tax exemptions, adding those exemptions have gotten closer to $1.6 trillion now.
"I could take about $400 [billion] away, and it wouldn't change your standard of living one tiny little bit — not even an iota," Biden told donors.
Still, he's not adopting the same aggressive language and policies of Warren and Sanders. Warren has proposed a new wealth tax for America's ultra-rich: a 2 percent tax levied on assets more than $50 million and 3 percent on assets over $1 billion. Warren wants to use this money to pay for bold proposals, like erasing millions of people's student loan debt, and creating a debt-free college program.
Sanders, who leaped to political stardom in 2016 when he ran against Hillary Clinton, is still railing against the undue influence of "millionaires and billionaires" on Americans economics and policy. Biden is taking a much more careful tone.
"I mean, we may not want to demonize anybody who has made money," the former vice president said at the Carlyle fundraiser. "We can disagree in the margins but the truth of the matter is it's all within our wheelhouse and nobody has to be punished. No one's standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change."

Again, there are a couple of ways to perceive those remarks, as Vox's Andrew Prokop recently explained:
One interpretation of Biden's comments is that he's telling these rich donors, essentially, that some redistribution of wealth won't hurt them all that much, and that it's better for everyone (including them) if it happens, so they shouldn't freak out about it.
This is arguably not so different from how, say, Elizabeth Warren promotes her marquee proposal of a wealth tax — she stresses that it's a mere two cents on every dollar above a $50 million-plus fortune.
A less sympathetic glean is that Biden is assuring the wealthy that whatever redistribution of wealth he pursues will be limited and moderate, and there's no "revolution" coming that they should freak out about.
 
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Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,390
I think you folks will understand why Bernie lost when you realize what Biden does fight for. This continual lying to yourself that he's a corporate stooge is just hindering things.
Hell, Berniecrats had a bad habit of labeling everything that wasn't Bernie's specific policy as being status quo corporate stooge centrism. That kind of "My way or the highway" politics wasn't exactly effective at expanding his voter base.
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
My circle finds it not only controversial but damning and disqualifying.

I can understand it being controversial and disqualifying for a number of people, because a lot of people are tied up in the desire for a class war and here is Biden refusing to engage in that

What is hard to understand is the suggestion that he actually admitted his administration won't accomplish or change anything
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,707
LA
The one thing I worry about Joe is that he hasn't been challenged that much in the debate stage so far, or by reporters in his interviews. Only that one time Kamala challenged him on segregation and he did incredibly poor in response. But aside from that he has shown very little about how he will respond once there are full fledged attacks on his past stances.

In the general we could easily waste so much time defending his history, instead of using that time to sell the undecided on the improvements he will bring. Then when he does get a chance to talk about his positions, they will seem like too small changes.

Hillary was hated but popular. Bernie is also popular. Outside of our politics circle, Joe is not that popular. How are they going to sell him to the general?

So far he only has 7 million out of the 65+ million votes he needs.
 

Ripcord

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,773
Look at the fact that right before that he told them to their face he was raising their taxes? What he was saying was if he raised their taxes 5-10%, their quality of life wouldn't fundamentally change. And he was completely correct. Do I agree with his numbers? No. But he wants to tax the rich and improve services offered to the poor and working class. If he gets his way, he'll help people, and that's better than I can say about Donald Trump.
Can you pass me a link on him saying he's raising taxes on the wealthiest among us? That might help but I can't find anything that's more than allusion. I can't say, "He'll be better than trump" because I said that last time and Hillary lost and I caught a bunch of told-you-so's. These aren't democrats I'm trying to convince so it's a fucking struggle.

stuff that won't quote
This is the route I've been taking but I'm not finding it effective at all. He alludes to maybe doing some stuff that might slow the growth of income inequality but I can't find anything concrete from him.

I appreciate the help though fam. I'll probably be reaching out a lot for suggestions as my panic ramps up.
 

jeelybeans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,948
I want to say Bernie should drop out after getting wrecked on ST and again in Michigan. Even in a 1v1 he is underperforming 2016. He has no path to win.

However, I do think Biden should engage in a one on one debate with someone. So I'm glad Bernie is staying in. But he should drop out after.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,396
im sorry but you are so wrong about this. Literally take a look at the 2016 Democratic platform vs the 2016 Republican platform.

Why do you keep just lying? His platform is new and more progressive than any president's platform.

Again, only by shifting the barometer so much that shit like (no marijuana legalizarion, universal healthcare, tuition-free education, etc) in this day and age is suddenly "progressive". That's a joke.
 

abutteredpig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
83
Why do you keep just lying? His platform is new and more progressive than any president's platform.

People are hammering this line, but Biden himself clearly isn't running as the most Progressive President Ever. Saying "go read the website!" is not persuasive when his electoral positioning and actual statements are designed to make people feel the opposite
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,102
People are hammering this line, but Biden himself clearly isn't running as the most Progressive President Ever. Saying "go read the website!" is not persuasive when his electoral positioning and actual statements are designed to make people feel the opposite
Running as the most progressive president ever would lose the election. Do you want the policies to happen or do you want to feel good because of what's essentially marketing?
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Remember when Biden was slightly questioned about deportations under the administration he worked for and he told an immigrant activist to go vote for Trump? Good times.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204

Kusagari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,382
People are hammering this line, but Biden himself clearly isn't running as the most Progressive President Ever. Saying "go read the website!" is not persuasive when his electoral positioning and actual statements are designed to make people feel the opposite

That's a GOOD thing. People running on more progressive platforms than Obama and Hillary even dreamed of have been called moderates and even conservatives this cycle.
 

abutteredpig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
83
Running as the most progressive president ever would lose the election. Do you want the policies to happen or do you want to feel good because of what's essentially marketing?

All I'm saying is hammering disappointed leftists with "actually Biden is very progressive, look at the website" isn't persuasive. I hope the policies do happen!
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Again, only by shifting the barometer so much that shit like (no marijuana legalizarion, universal healthcare, tuition-free education, etc) in this day and age is suddenly "progressive". That's a joke.

How is that a joke? Progressive has a definition and it's not "exclusively what Bernie thinks." Decriminalization, allowing states to decide and releasing prisoners convicted of marijuana offenses is absolutely a progressive policy. Free two years at community college is progressive. Public option is progressive.

People are hammering this line, but Biden himself clearly isn't running as the most Progressive President Ever. Saying "go read the website!" is not persuasive when his electoral positioning and actual statements are designed to make people feel the opposite

I can't help the misconceptions of others. He is left of the platform and the platform gets more progressive every year.
 

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
This belief that Biden can't be pushed/kept further left when previously he was one of the more conservative members of the party and now has a policy plan further left than Clinton and Obama during their respective runs seems counterfactual.

Also bernies whole strategy was convincing republicans to vote for his even more leftwing proposals. If that can't be done to biden then what was the efficacy of his campaign to begin with?

to win, presumably? as any other candidate?
and while i don't place faith in electoral politics to begin with, that's doubly so for biden's radical centerism. given how obama's administration played out, the notion that joe now has "a policy plan further left" of him does not carry the weight you might think.

You don't pivot away from the center (normally) for GEs. You pivot towards it.

That doesn't mean that's where he'll preside though, and for that you need to vote for progressives in local elections, and specially Congress.

well good thing for joe, he's been practicing pivoting towards the center for much of his long career, and gives no real indication he's wavering from that, so at least he'll be ready
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,707
LA
🤔



As a Senator who rode the Amtrak to his work in DC for 30 years, before being VP for the most beloved Democratic President of the last century?

Are you seriously suggesting people don't know who Joe Biden is?

Notice the part where I say, outside our politics circle. Of course people knew Obama, he was the president. But how much do regular people really pay attention to vice presidents, I guess we will see.
 

abutteredpig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
83
That's a GOOD thing. People running on more progressive platforms than Obama and Hillary even dreamed of have been called moderates and even conservatives this cycle.
I agree with you!

I can't help the misconceptions of others. He is left of the platform and the platform gets more progressive every year.
I think its fair to say the platform is progressive and getting more progressive, but people suspicious that Joe will actually follow through also have a point
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
I can't wait to see how he'll cure cancer and alzheimers. But lol let's not with things like M4A, education for everyone, etc. Those are pie in the sky.

I just can't imagine having such outright contempt for the working class as opposed to high-dollar donors, and I definitely can't understand who would rather align themselves with those who already have privilege in this regard as well.
 

abutteredpig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
83
I think hammering people on the internet about things they can very easily find on the internet in the time that they spent complaining seems fine?

What do you actually want to accomplish though? I've been a Resetera lurker since the site started but I'm starting to post now because I'm frustrated with the rhetoric here; I'm baffled that some posters have spent 2 years now attempting to shame and hammer people into submission (imo) until they agree with them.....it's not persuasive and causes potential allies to feel spite against you, when we need all hands on deck against Trump
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
I just can't imagine having such outright contempt for the working class as opposed to high-dollar donors, and I definitely can't understand who would rather align themselves with those who already have privilege in this regard as well.

Does Biden's huge support among the working class make you question that analysis? Or do you just assume they aren't smart enough to know better?
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
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Apr 12, 2018
11,215
What do you actually want to accomplish though? I've been a Resetera lurker since the site started but I'm starting to post now because I'm frustrated with the rhetoric here; I'm baffled that some posters have spent 2 years now attempting to shame and hammer people into submission (imo) until they agree with them.....it's not persuasive and causes potential allies to feel spite against you, when we need all hands on deck against Trump

Yup, it's only gotten louder now as well. I appreciate people like yourself. It's full on Biden cheer squad now from many who I imagine always wanted it this way.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,396
How is that a joke? Progressive has a definition and it's not "exclusively what Bernie thinks." Decriminalization, allowing states to decide and releasing prisoners convicted of marijuana offenses is absolutely a progressive policy. Free two years at community college is progressive. Public option is progressive.



I can't help the misconceptions of others. He is left of the platform and the platform gets more progressive every year.

Public option in a scenario where private insurance still exists is a bandaid over a system that can only be truly fixed by a hard reset. It's nothing more than a marketing bullet-point like most of what's on his website.

Just because he is taking enough small half-steps to technically be further than what's come before him, doesn't mean we shouldn't collectively repudiate his glaring shortcomings and demand better.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
What do you actually want to accomplish though? I've been a Resetera lurker since the site started but I'm starting to post now because I'm frustrated with the rhetoric here; I'm baffled that some posters have spent 2 years now attempting to shame and hammer people into submission (imo) until they agree with them.....it's not persuasive and causes potential allies to feel spite against you, when we need all hands on deck against Trump

Luckily it's pretty easy to see past bad faith and disingenuous posts, which has only amplified moreso since Super Tuesday. It makes the ignore function have a wonderful purpose if anything. Don't let anyone shame you, and just move past those who don't actually have interest in engaging in critical thinking or nuance.
 

Ripcord

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,773
No they don't. They have unfalsifiable and therefore useless assumptions
That's not fair. Obama ran on hope and change and delivered neither to many people out there. It's natural people would pass that burn to his VP. Especially people that aren't dyed in the wool Dems. This is stuff we have to confront if we want their votes so we gotta get a plan together.
 

abutteredpig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
83
No they don't. They have unfalsifiable and therefore useless assumptions

In good faith here--I don't understand what you're saying. If the assumption is "Joe has a good platform, but he won't follow through on it"; then wouldn't that be falsifiable if elected and he does follow through? Or, a lesser standard but something I would be happy with, if he comes out and makes strong overtures to left positions during this 1-1 debate? (although i understand from his position why he would not; Bernie supporters certainly wouldn't accept this if the positions were flipped)
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Public option in a scenario where private insurance still exists is a bandaid over a system that can only be truly fixed by a hard reset. It's nothing more than a marketing bullet-point like most of what's on his website.

Just because he is taking enough small half-steps to technically be further than what's come before him, doesn't mean we shouldn't collectively repudiate his glaring shortcomings and demand better.

Just because it's not exactly what you want doesn't mean you can lie and say it's not progressive.
 

Africanus II

Member
Oct 26, 2017
403
You all also have to remember that when people think about democrats, they aren't just thinking about the national figures leading the country.

They're thinking about their local and state officials who are also part of the machine.
In IL, our 2000s governor was just pardoned by Trump and abandoned many minority voters during his time in office. Rahm Emmanuel famously assisted in the police coverup of a shooting. Democratic house reps ignore their constituents and are supported by the national apparatus due to a lack of Republican challengers in their district.
 

golguin

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,757
What is the update here? Are people still clinging to Bernie or have they thrown full support behind Biden?
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,102
What do you actually want to accomplish though? I've been a Resetera lurker since the site started but I'm starting to post now because I'm frustrated with the rhetoric here; I'm baffled that some posters have spent 2 years now attempting to shame and hammer people into submission (imo) until they agree with them.....it's not persuasive and causes potential allies to feel spite against you, when we need all hands on deck against Trump
I'm not sure I follow. This whole train of quotes stemmed from someone basically saying both parties are the same if you looked them up. And they're not. Is telling someone that Biden is pushing for progressive policies not persuasive and causing people to feel spite?

I guess I'm just not seeing what you're saying because to me the "both parties are the same" is the worst rhetoric.
 

Goat Mimicry

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,920
I think its fair to say the platform is progressive and getting more progressive, but people suspicious that Joe will actually follow through also have a point

They don't really. The vast majority of politicians at least try to get their platform passed, and there's nothing to suggest that Joe would be any different in that regard.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
That's not fair. Obama ran on hope and change and delivered neither to many people out there. It's natural people would pass that burn to his VP. Especially people that aren't dyed in the wool Dems. This is stuff we have to confront if we want their votes so we gotta get a plan together.

Almost entirely because the GOP prevented it. He still managed to pass signature legislation many admins would drew an for.

In good faith here--I don't understand what you're saying. If the assumption is "Joe has a good platform, but he won't follow through on it"; then wouldn't that be falsifiable if elected and he does follow through? Or, a lesser standard but something I would be happy with, if he comes out and makes strong overtures to left positions during this 1-1 debate? (although i understand from his position why he would not; Bernie supporters certainly wouldn't accept this if the positions were flipped)

Unfalsifiable now, obviously. Hindsight of course we can evaluate. But addressing people now means that belief can't be addressed, especially because it wasn't something reasoned into. I keep seeing lies and distortions about what he told bankers, for instance, as proof nothing he's saying is what he'll do. Overtures would be treated as more deviousness, which is a literal quote. The positions here are not rational.
 

Deleted member 25600

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,701
Jesus christ even the head of the Data for Progress progressive think tank said that Biden's climate change plans were "ambitious". So many of you need to pull your heads out of the goddamn sand.
Is a score of 30/48 ambitious? Sunrise movement have it an F, and Greenpeace USA give it a B+

So there's no real concensus on whether it's a good plan or not.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
I'm pretty sure M4A is kind of a cornerstone of the current progressive platforms. Why are you implying it's some personal pipedream?

To be fair, the only people who would actively fight against ensuring healthcare for everyone are either A) rich enough to afford good insurance, or B) work in the industry themselves. Anything else would just be pure greed or outright contempt for the less fortunate, especially when actively trying to talk down any potential of having it in the US.
 
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