I don't know what it is you think "status quo" means.
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Democratic Presidential Primaries & Caucuses |March OT| Last Tuesday was 1000 years ago, old news no one cares about (Discussion Guidelines in OP)
- Thread starter Poodlestrike
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You didn't address a single thing I said. You only offer magical thinking solutions about how wanting things really bad is all that's required to manifest them.
Honestly I don't think it matters if Sander's stays in. He ran a terrible campaign, he made the same mistakes Hillary did(not campaign in certain areas). The only way Warren could have changed things is if she had the super dragon balls. Biden is a flawed candidate, and we got to admit Bernie is even more flawed. He lost ground, seriously look at last night, a good chunk of his 2016 base flipped.
Everyone should be held accountable including Bernie
Everyone should be held accountable including Bernie
Ok but that's not what the person you responded to was commenting on.
The push back folks are receiving on this isn't because they're criticising Biden. It's more because it isn't accurate criticism. Which makes said criticism less than effective, but destructive.
He could adopt a medicare for all plan that will be cheaper than his plan. He can make his climate change platform better by moving the deadline for a carbon-neutral economy to 2030 instead of 2050, which is too late according to scientists.
I mean exit polls show that a majority of democrats are in favor of medicare for all.
When I say I don't believe him, I'm saying that I don't believe he wants to solve these problems because his proposed policies are insufficient solutions. Slow walking a carbon-neutral economy to 2050 is not sufficient to solve climate change. The public option is not a sufficient means of ensuring that healthcare is a right for ALL Americans.
If you want me to trust someone, they actually have to propose policies that will fix the problems they're meant to address. It's obvious to me that Biden thinks it's more important to invest in corporations than it is the people and the environment.
How could Biden have run a better campaign? What could he have done better? Where could he have campaigned that he didn't already?
Do you mean like when he kept doing events in Mississippi when Bernie fled to Michigan? Was that an error on his part?
He had no funding, so he didn't campaign. That part is fixed.
I honestly think that lets Bernie off the hook. He could have won, but he used the same losing playbook as he did in 2016 against a much stronger candidate.
Since people are talking about the environment I think one of my post deserves a bump up:
Since at least earlier people were talking about Climate Change, I thought it was best to link to Carbon Briefs article on IPCC report back in late 2018 & Q&A that alot of the basis for most of the candidates climate plans by the Dem candidates are based around:
In-depth Q&A: The IPCC’s special report on climate change at 1.5C - Carbon Brief
Earlier today in South Korea, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) published its long-awaited special report on 1.5C.t.co
Here is a paper written a while ago about ways to get to zero carbon emissions:
Some people on Twitter worth following for climate (mostly focusing on various climate scientist):
@RARohde , @past_is_future , @AndrewDessler , @leahstokes , @triofrancos , @themadstone (she linked an article that I think is pretty good looking into alternate means of making cement), @DrKateMarvel , @coxypm , @richardabetts , @Peters_Glen , @airscottdenning , @CColose , @ClimateOfGavin , @JustinHGillis, @coralsncaves , @piersforster , @MichaelEMann , @JesseJenkins , @ramez , @laurimyllyvirta (really great source about China & sometimes the occasionally India), @DrSimEvans , @hausfath , @wang_seaver , @KHayhoe
Sorry if I bothered anyone.
He had less chips and put the chips where it mattered. How is that a bad campaign? Because Sanders had more money and could open up more offices he deserves the nomination?
Bloomberg dumped 500 million into the race.
I'm tired of the narrative that Biden ran a bad campaign because he had less money and less resources.
That and the dementia stuff is extremely destructive and unfounded bullshit. Also the doomers saying there's no way he can beat Trump.
People should totally feel free to criticize him on the issues if they would like but it's kinda spitting into the wind at this point.
A solid plan to address climate change via the Green New Deal is not magical thinking. Look all I'm trying to say is that a plan to go carbon-neutral by 2050 is just as good as a plan to do nothing at all. Scientists say we have until 2030, we aren't going to be able to unfuck ourselves out of this after that. And yes, if people care more about beating Trump than addressing climate change, they don't give a fuck about climate change. It's short sighted and foolish to prioritize winning over the environment. And it's no surprise that it's mainly older folks supporting Biden - they will die before they have to deal with the impacts they've created.
I like Biden. He's my fourth choice. I'm just saying his campaign relied on nobody else breaking his SC firewall. That's not a "good" campaign. He was extremely helped by Pete muddying the IA/NH waters. He was also resource limited.
Here's my fantasy booking for the next week from someone who voted for Bernie, but Warren was my first choice:
Before the debate, Sanders signals to Biden that he is effectively ending his campaign before the Tuesday voting. They'll still have the debate, but it will be completely different in tone. Biden and Sanders will highlight the similarities they have and Biden will bend over backwards to talk up some of the Progressive policies that Sanders and Warren have brought to the forefront. Sanders will also highlight the similarities and use his last moments in the national spotlight to really attack Trump and viciously highlight the differences between a hypothetical Biden and Trump Presidency. Sanders will still talk up Progressive ideals, but ultimately highlight that Biden is helluva lot closer than Trump than him, and that the American people have spoken, and the time for unity is now.
The next morning, Sanders and Warren formally announce their endorsements of Biden.
As a Progressive, yesterday was devastating. Next Tuesday is looking to be much worse. Prolonging the campaign only will alienate portions of the party and I fear could set the Progressive movement back even more. The math isn't there. Be the bigger man and get out while you are still "liked" and use your political capital to join in the fight against Trump, and also push for Progressive candidates in other races throughout the country.
Before the debate, Sanders signals to Biden that he is effectively ending his campaign before the Tuesday voting. They'll still have the debate, but it will be completely different in tone. Biden and Sanders will highlight the similarities they have and Biden will bend over backwards to talk up some of the Progressive policies that Sanders and Warren have brought to the forefront. Sanders will also highlight the similarities and use his last moments in the national spotlight to really attack Trump and viciously highlight the differences between a hypothetical Biden and Trump Presidency. Sanders will still talk up Progressive ideals, but ultimately highlight that Biden is helluva lot closer than Trump than him, and that the American people have spoken, and the time for unity is now.
The next morning, Sanders and Warren formally announce their endorsements of Biden.
As a Progressive, yesterday was devastating. Next Tuesday is looking to be much worse. Prolonging the campaign only will alienate portions of the party and I fear could set the Progressive movement back even more. The math isn't there. Be the bigger man and get out while you are still "liked" and use your political capital to join in the fight against Trump, and also push for Progressive candidates in other races throughout the country.
Yep on the Sunday ahead of Super Tuesday he chose to campaign in California where the math was already on his side (for the most part) instead of going to Selma for the Bloody Sunday anniversary to engage in outreach with Southern Black Voters. Biden went to churches where the congregation is predominantly composed of Black people. Bernie cancelled an event in Flint intended to connect with Black voters to do a stump speech for a predominantly middle class white crowd.
Those are really critical mistakes in a Democratic primary.
Did bernie really lose cause he ran a bad campaign? I call bull on that tbh. Bernie lost cause he had the entire democratic establishment against him, including news sources, which means endless propaganda downplaying and attacking him. Theres also the fact that there is active voter suppression going on in different ways. Voting day not being a national holiday isnt an accident for example.
I don't think it's necessarily a bad campaign. He's not a great candidate for breaking 30%. If their strategy didn't incorporate that, then it's a bad campaign.
Here's hoping Bernie's mistakes are teaching the next leftist/progressive candidate.
It's not one or the other. It's both. Yes, Bernie is at a disadvantage - even Warren was. But Bernie did not expand his base aside from a few inroads into West Coast Latinos and Asian Americans. Still no black support or significant outreach to the black community. Still a reliance on the youth vote which is flaky. Overconfidence from running against one of the most hated Dems in 2016.
It's not one or the other. It's both. Yes, Bernie is at a disadvantage - even Warren was. But Bernie did not expand his base aside from a few inroads into West Coast Latinos and Asian Americans. Still no black support or significant outreach to the black community. Still a reliance on the youth vote which is flaky. Overconfidence from running against one of the most hated Dems in 2016.
I feel like there should be automatic debates when the primary field thins by a certain % from the last one. The fact there's a glaring hole in the debate schedule right around and after Super Tuesday means that TONS of people are voting without even really getting to see who's left in the field and what they represent.
Not that it would clinch anything for Sanders but it does seem a little unfair that the last time we saw anybody debate it was like 7 candidates
Not that it would clinch anything for Sanders but it does seem a little unfair that the last time we saw anybody debate it was like 7 candidates
This is the kind of attitude that lead to Bernie using the same plan this cycle as four years ago, with even worse results.
Yes, Bernie could have run his campaign differently in any number of ways that could have had a major impact on this race.
I think the problem is that Sanders ran an issues focused campaign when people are more concerned with beating Trump. And quite frankly, given the onslaught of negative attention Sanders got from the media, I don't think there was any way he could have overcome that. He had the most volunteers, the most money, the biggest campaign, yet the media only ever talked negatively about him. I think the only way he could have won was to get the Clyburn endorsement and win SC. He fucked up by not even reaching out to Clyburn, but at the same time I am 99% certain Clyburn would have never endorsed Sanders. It's profoundly depressing that mainstream media has such a stranglehold on the direction of politics in our country.
Speaking of repeating the mistakes of 2016, I can see many here are once again deluding themselves mythologising the presumptive nominee.
for how dumb the criticisms were, it seems like the cuba story really hurt him
it was the only bullshit criticism to ever get any traction. he probably could have handled it much better
it was the only bullshit criticism to ever get any traction. he probably could have handled it much better
Not really, Biden being Obama's VP & the media calling Bernie a nazi/russian asset was too much to overcome. There was also way more fear mongering about socialism this primary, in 2016 it was mainly from Fox News, this time Biden & CNN/MSNBC really doubled down on the red scare.
Most importantly the youth vote didn't turn up again & i wouldn't be surprised if the turn out in 2020 is worse than 2016 at this point.
I think a lot of it is talking themselves into being excited for voting for literal Joe fucking Biden in 2020. That isn't going to feel good for anyone. We saw the same thing back at the old place with Hillary Clinton. You have to be willing to see past a lot of bad policy to get enthused for these kind of candidates.
Running against the Democratic Party, not to be the leader of the Democratic Party, hurt him. Not reaching out as much as he should have to the black community, especially in the South, hurt him. Not being willing to widen his tent in any number of ways hurt him. Relying on youth turnout hurt him.
It's important to learn from our mistakes. Sticking our fingers in our ears and saying nothing could have changed this result accomplishes absolutely nothing.
yeah no, Bernie ran a bad campaign and neglected everyone but his supporters who were not even there as much. Bernie could have done much better but he dropped the ball.
just like your Willing to look past a candidate who didn't do himself any favors with how he ran his campaign and cost himself the nomination.
Guess who are the only caucus (attempting) to address that voter suppression concern? That pesky Democratic establishment.
Voted Bernie in 2016 Primary. Hillary in the General. Voted Bernie again this year, but will vote Biden in the general.
I think progressive ideas are a hot item and I think in polls and questionnaires it showed that people do care about these issues. As a person who voted for Bernie both times, I can also see that after looking at all the data of how people in the majority want a plan like M4A, people want college forgiveness, etc. that the problem must be Bernie himself.
The fact that we can see that people are pushing more towards those policies is great and in the future when we can wrap those ideas around other candidates who people don't dislike as much as Bernie I have no doubt in my mind they will succeed. I look to the future and feel hopeful based on the data that we are going to see change. Right now, though, in the immediate future, we have a bigger issue that needs to be addressed and that's Trump. It doesn't seem that hard to understand to me.
Yep, it's gonna suck that we aren't going to have a candidate who supports M4A, which would help millions. It's going to suck not having a candidate who supports all student loan forgiveness which will free financial burdens for millions. But at the end of the day, there are people suffering from way worse things now under Trump's current presidency that are things that this candidate CAN fix. We can't fix all the problems, but we can fix some of them, some of them that shouldn't be problems in the first place. Let's fix those first and let's keep building up candidates that will support those future goals that people are definitely interested in.
I think progressive ideas are a hot item and I think in polls and questionnaires it showed that people do care about these issues. As a person who voted for Bernie both times, I can also see that after looking at all the data of how people in the majority want a plan like M4A, people want college forgiveness, etc. that the problem must be Bernie himself.
The fact that we can see that people are pushing more towards those policies is great and in the future when we can wrap those ideas around other candidates who people don't dislike as much as Bernie I have no doubt in my mind they will succeed. I look to the future and feel hopeful based on the data that we are going to see change. Right now, though, in the immediate future, we have a bigger issue that needs to be addressed and that's Trump. It doesn't seem that hard to understand to me.
Yep, it's gonna suck that we aren't going to have a candidate who supports M4A, which would help millions. It's going to suck not having a candidate who supports all student loan forgiveness which will free financial burdens for millions. But at the end of the day, there are people suffering from way worse things now under Trump's current presidency that are things that this candidate CAN fix. We can't fix all the problems, but we can fix some of them, some of them that shouldn't be problems in the first place. Let's fix those first and let's keep building up candidates that will support those future goals that people are definitely interested in.
Once again I want to point to Mich, those were his people and he lost almost everyone
trying to diagnose why bernie is losing this early is a fools errand. there were so many hot takes right trump won and everyone wanted to be the first to have the answer... when it answer was just a lot of little things all coalesced into one.
it could be bernie campaign, could be the message doesn't resonate with the masses, could be the democratic establishment smear machine, could be electability, could be all of those things.
it could be bernie campaign, could be the message doesn't resonate with the masses, could be the democratic establishment smear machine, could be electability, could be all of those things.
It's funny how this guy is lamenting Bernie supporters online saying they won't vote for Biden in the general because Bernie "won" the internet primary but lost the IRL primary yet not realizing the irony that most of these "Bernie or Bust" people are also largely online and most Bernie voters did vote for the nominee IRL last go around (and I can guarantee they'll vote for the nominee/Biden this time around), even someone as despised as HRC. And Biden is across the board more favorable than HRC so I expect an even higher proportion of Bernie supporters voting for Biden in the general than last time.
More than can be said of IRL Hillary supporters who straight up voted for McCain over Obama.
notice the word "suffices"
class and race are both important parts of the equation, and excusing the Democratic Party's failures on the basis that we're a racist country isn't workable
it's not why it embraced the financialization of everything, why it blindly chased free trade, why it didn't do nearly enough to stand up for labor, or why it hesitates to even use the term "worker" over the term "middle class"
same phenomenon happened in the UK and other places, it's not just the natural result of the response to the Civil Rights Act
Not really, because again Bernie ran with basically the same playbook as he did in 2016, and did much worse. Most of the same reasons he lost that election can be applied to this one.
His mistake was not learning from that experience. Which seems to be exactly what some are advocating now: not taking any lessons from two failed campaigns.
as a 1st generation immigrant myself, I can attest that old country baggage carries over.
so, many 1st gen Cuban-Americans in Florida who still are not over the Castro regime will vote against Sanders no matter what
2050 is absolutely not as bad as doing nothing. Hyperbole like that undermines your argument.
I have no idea why you and others think going on about how important it is addressed the issue of not getting it through the senate. You're ignoring the problem. A 2030 plan is not going to pass into law. Full stop, zero chance, isn't going to happen. Anyone going into the White House with that plan will end up the same place as anybody else with a slightly more conservative plan. The plans that can pass the senate are the sane for Biden and Bernie except, ironically, if Biden is able to flip the senate (which Bernie wasn't going to do). If Biden has the senate the plan he's able to pass still won't be for 2030, but it'll be closer to the green new deal he supports.
When the next candidate steps up who is actually serious about M4A, loan forgiveness, etc, then they will also be made to be "the problem", and you'll be told once again by so-called progressives that they really do want the same things as you but the problem is the messenger or "the way they go about it".
Biden can coast through this process with no such scrutiny applied because as he has admitted himself, he has assured various vested interests that nothing will change.
If Bernie campaigned poorly, Biden campaigned catastrophically bad. He had one campaign office in California and was barely present (if he was present at all) in most of the states he won on Super Tuesday. He barely spent any money. He barely had a grassroots or a ground game.
The issue with Bernie's campaign was, as someone said earlier, that he appeared to be running against the Democrats rather than with the Democrats, especially to the black community. Whenever Bernie railed against "the establishment", people saw him railing against those very same people that have pushed for civil rights and equality, which obviously wasn't the case, but a vague term like "establishment" tends to group a lot of people together.
And we can look at the 300-400k Venezuelans that are dealing with a much newer beast in Maduro. Those are all Anti-Castro votes.
I would say the funny thing is more he is complaining about rich white christian men, but telling you voting for Biden (who is exactly that) is some heroic deed & not just "hes better than Trump" Which he obviously is much better, but im getting tired of people pretending the man who voted for the iraq war is some hero.
Standards are just sadly low now i guess, i could never think in 2008 that Biden would be considered a great white hope in 2020 to save everyone, Trump lowered the bar into the abyss.
You're over thinking it. Sanders is, I believe, the most favorable Democrat in the country. His tent was plenty wide and exit polls show a majority of support for M4A which was the foundation of his platform. For a time right before SC he was polling better with the black community than Biden. Going into SC Sanders was slated to dominate Super Tuesday.
This entire race really just comes down to Biden crushing in SC and that caused a lot of the Super Tuesday voters to believe he was the best candidate.
Yep, Biden is not a champion of anything (except corporate interests) by any stretch of the word. The only good reason to vote for Biden is that he isn't Trump. Which is going to be enough of a reason for most Democratic voters, including Sanders supporters.
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