What we've had so far is nowhere near good enough. Stop using that as a metric.
Then stop talking about going back to the status quo. It is quite literally not the status quo.
What we've had so far is nowhere near good enough. Stop using that as a metric.
My issue with Biden is I just don't trust him at all. I'm sure if you looked at the platform Obama had proposed and compare it to what he actually accomplished, what he actually accomplished would be a very small percentage of what he proposed.Biden isn't the status quo. This took less than a minute of searching:
Joe Biden for President: Official Campaign Website
We are in a battle for the soul of this nation. Join our campaign to elect Joe Biden for President of the United States.joebiden.com
Look at my last two posts. The math here has nothing to do with polling, it has to do with the actual results we have so far.This entire election changed in the course of a week from polling that showed Biden dramatically had zero path to the nomination and we still haven't even gotten through half the contests yet, let Democracy actually happen because the only thing that shows "This is not mathematically possible" are the same volatile polls that could be rocked.
I don't think Bernie has a chance left at this point and he knows it, but this Primary has been insane for how much has kept shifting around, so it doesn't hurt to let this play out another week.
My issue with Biden is I just don't trust him at all. I'm sure if you looked at the platform Obama had proposed and compare it to what he actually accomplished, what he actually accomplished would be a very small percentage of what he proposed.
And for me probably the biggest issue is climate change. Joe's plan set's a goal of 100% clean energy by 2050. Not only is the far too fucking late, but how the fuck is he going to ensure that a 30 year plan isn't somehow undermined when he will be President for 8 years at most?
Truth is, Biden is a corporate ghoul just like most other democrats and he's going to drag his feet to do the bare fucking minimum to solve the problems facing our country.
Look I know we're currently in a surreal Trump presidency, but even amending that to "business as usual" level of establishment politics is not really a proper chnage.
Listen, I'm not interested in debating what is well-documented and clearly traceable in terms of when and how the party faltered, adopted neoliberal ideologies, swung towards corporate interests all the while supporting and implementing criminal foreign policy.
The very fact that you're trying to browbeat me with party propaganda despite my vocal support for Biden come the General speaks volumes as to your own bullish tribal fealty and ill-informed position on issues that are fundamental and crucial to the progressive platform.(Hint: Progressives tend to be driven by humanitarian concerns over party politics and cheap pragmatism masking cynicism and apathy)
I've been dealing with faux-liberals for a very long time and I find them altogether insubstantial. Wealth for the upper tier of our stratified society has grown rapidly under our Democratic presidents and the income gap under Obama reached Great Depression levels of Gilded Age, Dickensian lunacy.
In the last election cycle Hillary - a relentless corporate shill who deigned to declare herself a champion of the middle class despite once sitting on the board of Wal-Mart - called M4A pie-in-the-sky. Fast-forward to our current time when Democrats have cherry-picked Sander's proposals and even adopted many of those positions fully, which is a tacit endorsement of his ideology even while attempting to villify him as you're unfortunately trying to do now.
The thing is, this isn't even about Sanders. I would have been equally happy had Warren surged and taken the nomination.
What this is really about is tribalism and how a monolithic group of supposedly liberal people don't like being reminded how very much full of shit their party actually is.
FYI, you don't get to occupy the high ground when you sell out the working class to the HMO's, allow fossil fuel companies to continue raping the environment, and blow Muslim civilians to smithereens. In this very thread (and others) on this supposedly progressive forum, I've seen people defend Bloomberg - a sexual harasser and overt racist - for the sake of political expediency.
So here's the final score: feel free to make Bernie and people like me who have serious problems with the Democratic Party (of which I am a registered member) the villains. We're used to it and frankly, no amount of scapegoating or deflection is going to make us quit striving towards a better society. This isn't about personalities or tribal politics but rather about what's right and the sooner establishment Dems get that through their heads, the sooner we can at least negotiate and work together in good faith.
And if it makes you feel any better, take comfort in the fact that our political duopoly – which constricts those of us who question the moral integrity of both parties – forces most progressives to vote D all the way down the ballot and I'm certainly no exception in that regard.
And that's really all I have to say about the end of Bernie's progressive run.
Let the Biden celebration continue.
Look I know we're currently in a surreal Trump presidency, but even amending that to "business as usual" level of establishment politics is not really a proper chnage.
Look at my last response to you.
The delegate difference at this point hides the actual problem here. For Bernie to win, the people in the remaining states would have to vote completely differently than their demographic peers in the previous states. And that's just not going to happen. The states aren't that different.
It would be different if the state results we actually close, if Biden and Bernie were going tit for tat, one takes a state here the other there. In that case smaller shifts could have larger effects. But that's not happening. Biden is winning the vast majority of contests, and by very comfortable margins. Proportional delegate allocation keeps the total number closer than the actual realities of the results.
Listen, I'm not interested in debating what is well-documented and clearly traceable in terms of when and how the party faltered, adopted neoliberal ideologies, swung towards corporate interests all the while supporting and implementing criminal foreign policy.
The very fact that you're trying to browbeat me with party propaganda despite my vocal support for Biden come the General speaks volumes as to your own bullish tribal fealty and ill-informed position on issues that are fundamental and crucial to the progressive platform.(Hint: Progressives tend to be driven by humanitarian concerns over party politics and cheap pragmatism masking cynicism and apathy)
I've been dealing with faux-liberals for a very long time and I find them altogether insubstantial. Wealth for the upper tier of our stratified society has grown rapidly under our Democratic presidents and the income gap under Obama reached Great Depression levels of Gilded Age, Dickensian lunacy.
In the last election cycle Hillary - a relentless corporate shill who deigned to declare herself a champion of the middle class despite once sitting on the board of Wal-Mart - called M4A pie-in-the-sky. Fast-forward to our current time when Democrats have cherry-picked Sander's proposals and even adopted many of those positions fully, which is a tacit endorsement of his ideology even while attempting to villify him as you're unfortunately trying to do now.
The thing is, this isn't even about Sanders. I would have been equally happy had Warren surged and taken the nomination.
What this is really about is tribalism and how a monolithic group of supposedly liberal people don't like being reminded how very much full of shit their party actually is.
FYI, you don't get to occupy the high ground when you sell out the working class to the HMO's, allow fossil fuel companies to continue raping the environment, and blow Muslim civilians to smithereens. In this very thread (and others) on this supposedly progressive forum, I've seen people defend Bloomberg - a sexual harasser and overt racist - for the sake of political expediency.
So here's the final score: feel free to make Bernie and people like me who have serious problems with the Democratic Party (of which I am a registered member) the villains. We're used to it and frankly, no amount of scapegoating or deflection is going to make us quit striving towards a better society. This isn't about personalities or tribal politics but rather about what's right and the sooner establishment Dems get that through their heads, the sooner we can at least negotiate and work together in good faith.
And if it makes you feel any better, take comfort in the fact that our political duopoly – which constricts those of us who question the moral integrity of both parties – forces most progressives to vote D all the way down the ballot and I'm certainly no exception in that regard.
And that's really all I have to say about the end of Bernie's progressive run.
Let the Biden celebration continue.
Then stop talking about going back to the status quo. It is quite literally not the status quo.
I mean, our timeline is we need to be at zero carbon emissions by 2030. If we can't drastically transform our economy in the next 10 years we are fucked, and Sanders plan was to invest a massive amount of money to do just that. Whether or not he could have done that, I don't know. But at least his plan was in line with what scientists are saying. Any goal that sets a date beyond 2030 is quite frankly unacceptable and insufficient. We're basically destroying the planet because of fucking profits. My wife and I have decided to forego having kids because of this shit man, it's depressing.Did you expect Sanders would solve climate change in 4-8 years?
I wonder if Bernie is going to try & stay in as long as possible, maybe more than 1 more debate with Biden.
It's probably not healthy to be honest & is going to make unity more difficult, not sure what progressives are doing in this primary, with Warren being a spoiler for Sanders & Sanders continuing the infighting.
Ok fine. Let's go with Establishment-with big corporate interest-Politics (but eeeever so slightly) nudged more left for window dressing.
This is nothing to feel good about or accept as is.
I mean, if you argument is entirely about the optics of the primary, ok maybe.What I'm saying is Biden will only look stronger and unequivocally a winner by sweeping most, if not all, of the remaining contests this month. There's not much argument supporters could make at that point, and he'll look stronger by actually winning 1 on 1 against Sanders.
Ok fine. Let's go with Establishment-with big corporate interest-Politics (but eeeever so slightly) nudged more left for window dressing.
This is nothing to feel good about or accept as is.
Ok fine. Let's go with Establishment-with big corporate interest-Politics (but eeeever so slightly) nudged more left for window dressing.
This is nothing to feel good about or accept as is.
If she endorsed Sanders instead of going on SNL, i think Sanders would be a slightly less bad position, not saying he would be the front runner though.Warren has not been a spoiler for Sanders. Surveys proved how much of her support actually went to Biden. Like so many things in this primary, that narrative is an illusion.
Best buckle up, we are going to have to listen to 9 months of people propping up Uncle Joe and finger wagging those against him/what he represents.
This is probably the thing I like about these threads the last.I'm seriously shocked at how happily some are rounding up his glaring deficiencies. Like I'm not even saying vote-Trump/3rd party or sit out GE.
Can we at least be critical and hold the dude accountable if we're gonna be stuck with the tool for 4 years?
this is a great post
anyone who thinks "it's because racism!" suffices as an explanation for the Democratic Party's failings over the past ~40 years should give A Brief History of Neoliberalism a read
Look at my last two posts. The math here has nothing to do with polling, it has to do with the actual results we have so far.
There are currently 1736 delegates declared with Biden at 860 and Bernie at 710. It's basically impossible for Bernie to overcome that deficit, but we haven't even assigned half the total delegates in the US yet, so the "true, purely factual data" in regards to delegates is that it's not over. It's the polls that indicate that Bernie has no chance and that's totally valid to say he has no path left... but the actual purely empirical data of delegates does not communicate that reality because it simply isn't there yet.
To be exceedingly clear, I'm not saying Bernie has a chance because he almost certainly does not unless Biden hard collapses (Which I don't expect to happen either), but you can't really point responsibly to the current delegate math as indicative of that fact yet.
I posted Osita N's piece again earlier.this is a great post
anyone who thinks "it's because racism!" suffices as an explanation for the Democratic Party's failings over the past ~40 years should give A Brief History of Neoliberalism a read
Unity is a 2-way street. If Joe and his supporters basically just want to tell the left "fuck you we won, now fall in line" then that's the opposite of unity. If ya'll want unity, you need to do that thing called compromise that is so important when it comes to Republicans. Prove to leftists that you're willing to move further to the left and maybe they won't stay home during the General.
I mean, our timeline is we need to be at zero carbon emissions by 2030. If we can't drastically transform our economy in the next 10 years we are fucked, and Sanders plan was to invest a massive amount of money to do just that. Whether or not he could have done that, I don't know. But at least his plan was in line with what scientists are saying. Any goal that sets a date beyond 2030 is quite frankly unacceptable and insufficient. We're basically destroying the planet because of fucking profits. My wife and I have decided to forego having kids because of this shit man, it's depressing.
I'm seriously shocked at how happily some are rounding up his glaring deficiencies. Like I'm not even saying vote-Trump/3rd party or sit out GE.
Can we at least be critical and hold the dude accountable if we're gonna be stuck with the tool for 4 years?
I addressed this. For Bernie to win, he would have to perform completely different demographic wise in the remaining states than he has in the previous ones.There are currently 1736 delegates declared with Biden at 860 and Bernie at 710. It's basically impossible for Bernie to overcome that deficit, but we haven't even assigned half the total delegates in the US yet, so the "true, purely factual data" in regards to delegates is that it's not over. It's the polls that indicate that Bernie has no chance and that's totally valid to say he has no path left... but the actual purely empirical data of delegates does not communicate that reality because it simply isn't there yet.
To be exceedingly clear, I'm not saying Bernie has a chance because he almost certainly does not unless Biden hard collapses (Which I don't expect to happen either), but you can't really point responsibly to the current delegate math as indicative of that fact yet.
I mean, if you argument is entirely about the optics of the primary, ok maybe.
But the data is pretty definitive from a mathematical and demographic standpoint.
If she endorsed Sanders instead of going on SNL, i think Sanders would be a slightly less bad position, not saying he would be the front runner though.
And polling has been really accurate this yearI addressed this. For Bernie to win, he would have to perform completely differently demographic wise in the remaining states as he has in the previous ones.
No one has been able to tell my why what would happen. The voters in the remaining states aren't meaningfully different than the voters in the previous states. And Biden has only done better and better as the primary has gone on, because he's the clear leader and that's what happens.
wtf i didn't know that actually. ty.Yeah a mb plan alongside recategorizing aw as title 2 - the latter of which Bernie wants to do.
none, he hasn't spent ONE DAY in office yet. You think he will enact more sweeping change than FDR?What president was more progressive than him? By almost any metric he is left on crime, climate, guns, healthcare, etc. than any other president.
Unity is a 2-way street. If Joe and his supporters basically just want to tell the left "fuck you we won, now fall in line" then that's the opposite of unity. If ya'll want unity, you need to do that thing called compromise that is so important when it comes to Republicans. Prove to leftists that you're willing to move further to the left and maybe they won't stay home during the General.
Whether or not Sanders could make these major changes due to the system's limitations and obstruction is not the same issue as "will Biden stay focused on and work towards these progressive ideals and policy." Say what you want about Sanders but he's fucking relentless and focused on his agenda. We've also heard plenty of insinuating from Biden that his goal is just to return DC to "normalcy," whatever do-nothing bullshit that means.Did you expect Sanders would solve climate change in 4-8 years?
I'm sure it's comforting to Warren and her progressive supporters to blow all of their political capital and leverage so Bernie could be getting the brakes beat off him slightly less.
Unity is a 2-way street. If Joe and his supporters basically just want to tell the left "fuck you we won, now fall in line" then that's the opposite of unity. If ya'll want unity, you need to do that thing called compromise that is so important when it comes to Republicans. Prove to leftists that you're willing to move further to the left and maybe they won't stay home during the General.
This is the embodiment of what I don't like about Democrats. They give up and concede before they even try. Let me put it this way - Biden winning the election in 2020 isn't going to mean fuck all when we don't have a planet to live on in 80 years. It's no surprise that the people least concerned with climate change are those who support Biden the most. At least boomers will be able to die in peace without Trump in office.How is that not a critical facet of this? Why do you dismiss the idea that Bernie's plan, likely being impossible to pass, ends up looking exactly like whatever plan is possible under Biden? People are weighing that against ability to get elected and win the senate. Biden wins on those metrics and painting people who think this as not caring about climate change is ridiculous.
none, he hasn't spent ONE DAY in office yet. You think he will enact more sweeping change than FDR?
Because she could reach people Sanders couldn't.Democrats were even less interested in Warren than with Sanders, I don't see how she would have moved the needle at all. People just want a scapegoat.
none, he hasn't spent ONE DAY in office yet. You think he will enact more sweeping change than FDR?
it doesn't matter how left the policy platform is, it's how the person governsHow did you twist policy platform being the most left ever to how many sweeping changes he'll enact? Do you do this on purpose?
I guess so!