He hasn't. He's just a better candidate.
Biden will help this race, and Kelly will help Biden. Biden has a shot at winning Arizona, but even if he doesn't, Kelly will run ahead of him and get a boost from a moderate candidate. Loser McSally will lose both Senate seats of Arizona for the GOP in just two years, incredible.
He didn't. He ran a really bad one.
Here is the difference: no, me and the rest of the Extended Bernie-Bro-Verse would not be cheering for him for doing something that is completely opposed to everything that he stands for.
That outburst doesn't fit the pattern, which normally goes like this: someone has honest criticism of Joe, Joe can't handle it, Joe gets personal and/or petty without actually addressing what the person was saying. In this case, it went like this: someone blatantly lied about Joe the same way other Republicans always lie about anyone who wants gun control, Joe called him out on it without getting personal or petty, and then Joe addressed the lie with facts. Shushing aside, the way Joe handled the situation was fine.And no, it does not matter how we group these outbursts together, because they reveal a pattern. It is indeed that Joe cant take criticism for shit. Fair or percieved unfair, because this question can be dismantled by one minute of normal speak.
All of this pearl clutching about dropping out if your boy can't handle Bernie he's not handling Trump. He hasn't had a real debate since Paul Ryan and it's insane not to test him before throwing him to the dogs directly at Trump. This a test run if you will to see if Biden will work for the people he's constantly shat on through out this entire primary process.
His point is to cast doubt on US election results. He's not being subtle.yes, and exit polls work the same in Bolivia. I get that people are deliberately missing the point of the tweet for personal reasons but there's no need to be disingenuous
The Dem's non-college white vote dropping from 55% in 1960/64 to 35% in 1968/72 is not "party propaganda", it's what actually happened the moment Dems passed civil rights despite them passing Medicaid as well. The Democratic candidate for President has never received a majority of white voters since then. The GOP became the dominant party in the country almost overnight because the consequence of passing civil rights ended up being the collapse of the New Deal coalition due to the Dixiecrats leaving and the Southern Strategy coming online for the GOP almost immediately.Listen, I'm not interested in debating what is well-documented and clearly traceable in terms of when and how the party faltered, adopted neoliberal ideologies, swung towards corporate interests all the while supporting and implementing criminal foreign policy.
The very fact that you're trying to browbeat me with party propaganda despite my vocal support for Biden come the General speaks volumes as to your own bullish tribal fealty and ill-informed position on issues that are fundamental and crucial to the progressive platform.(Hint: Progressives tend to be driven by humanitarian concerns over party politics and cheap pragmatism masking cynicism and apathy)
I've been dealing with faux-liberals for a very long time and I find them altogether insubstantial. Wealth for the upper tier of our stratified society has grown rapidly under our Democratic presidents and the income gap under Obama reached Great Depression levels of Gilded Age, Dickensian lunacy.
In the last election cycle Hillary - a relentless corporate shill who deigned to declare herself a champion of the middle class despite once sitting on the board of Wal-Mart - called M4A pie-in-the-sky. Fast-forward to our current time when Democrats have cherry-picked Sander's proposals and even adopted many of those positions fully, which is a tacit endorsement of his ideology even while attempting to villify him as you're unfortunately trying to do now.
The thing is, this isn't even about Sanders. I would have been equally happy had Warren surged and taken the nomination.
What this is really about is tribalism and how a monolithic group of supposedly liberal people don't like being reminded how very much full of shit their party actually is.
FYI, you don't get to occupy the high ground when you sell out the working class to the HMO's, allow fossil fuel companies to continue raping the environment, and blow Muslim civilians to smithereens. In this very thread (and others) on this supposedly progressive forum, I've seen people defend Bloomberg - a sexual harasser and overt racist - for the sake of political expediency.
So here's the final score: feel free to make Bernie and people like me who have serious problems with the Democratic Party (of which I am a registered member) the villains. We're used to it and frankly, no amount of scapegoating or deflection is going to make us quit striving towards a better society. This isn't about personalities or tribal politics but rather about what's right and the sooner establishment Dems get that through their heads, the sooner we can at least negotiate and work together in good faith.
And if it makes you feel any better, take comfort in the fact that our political duopoly – which constricts those of us who question the moral integrity of both parties – forces most progressives to vote D all the way down the ballot and I'm certainly no exception in that regard.
And that's really all I have to say about the end of Bernie's progressive run.
Let the Biden celebration continue.
Why should he be proud? Isn't he doing substantially worse than 4 years ago?
As for your first point, you said that right here:
Hillary should have suspended her campaign as well.
And, fine. I think the public health issue is a valid on that changes the dynamics of the situation, but again, I do think it is Bernie's right to stay in. I just don't think it's the best decision.
Listen, I'm not interested in debating what is well-documented and clearly traceable in terms of when and how the party faltered, adopted neoliberal ideologies, swung towards corporate interests all the while supporting and implementing criminal foreign policy.
The very fact that you're trying to browbeat me with party propaganda despite my vocal support for Biden come the General speaks volumes as to your own bullish tribal fealty and ill-informed position on issues that are fundamental and crucial to the progressive platform.(Hint: Progressives tend to be driven by humanitarian concerns over party politics and cheap pragmatism masking cynicism and apathy)
I've been dealing with faux-liberals for a very long time and I find them altogether insubstantial. Wealth for the upper tier of our stratified society has grown rapidly under our Democratic presidents and the income gap under Obama reached Great Depression levels of Gilded Age, Dickensian lunacy.
In the last election cycle Hillary - a relentless corporate shill who deigned to declare herself a champion of the middle class despite once sitting on the board of Wal-Mart - called M4A pie-in-the-sky. Fast-forward to our current time when Democrats have cherry-picked Sander's proposals and even adopted many of those positions fully, which is a tacit endorsement of his ideology even while attempting to villify him as you're unfortunately trying to do now.
The thing is, this isn't even about Sanders. I would have been equally happy had Warren surged and taken the nomination.
What this is really about is tribalism and how a monolithic group of supposedly liberal people don't like being reminded how very much full of shit their party actually is.
FYI, you don't get to occupy the high ground when you sell out the working class to the HMO's, allow fossil fuel companies to continue raping the environment, and blow Muslim civilians to smithereens. In this very thread (and others) on this supposedly progressive forum, I've seen people defend Bloomberg - a sexual harasser and overt racist - for the sake of political expediency.
So here's the final score: feel free to make Bernie and people like me who have serious problems with the Democratic Party (of which I am a registered member) the villains. We're used to it and frankly, no amount of scapegoating or deflection is going to make us quit striving towards a better society. This isn't about personalities or tribal politics but rather about what's right and the sooner establishment Dems get that through their heads, the sooner we can at least negotiate and work together in good faith.
And if it makes you feel any better, take comfort in the fact that our political duopoly – which constricts those of us who question the moral integrity of both parties – forces most progressives to vote D all the way down the ballot and I'm certainly no exception in that regard.
And that's really all I have to say about the end of Bernie's progressive run.
Let the Biden celebration continue.
Oh ok
I would like to see less concern over how Sanders ran his campaign in the future then :)
If going hard on Biden isn't going to change anything, then Biden is the strong candidate that you're saying he is and Bernie should concede and endorse Biden. If a hail mary attempt at changing the tides is enough to hurt Biden, then he's not the strong candidate that everyone thinks he is. It's better that Biden faces this stuff now than in the General.
And if Biden loses in the general because Sanders supports abstain or w/e, don't come blaming us. You want to talk about unity, then maybe we shouldn't have nominated somebody that tells voters to "go vote for Trump" when they criticize his policies. And maybe we shouldn't have nominated somebody who is more willing to compromise with Republicans than he is people who are in the same fucking party.
Edit: And just to clarify, I fully intend on voting for Biden. But the unity talk is bs when it only works in one direction.
I'll give him one thing to his credit. From the very beginning he said SC was his firewall and he took advantage of it. And there was a good stretch when absolutely no one here believed that was possible. And even Bernie's campaign themselves, they should have spent more resources contesting it.
Oh ok
I would like to see less concern over how Sanders ran his campaign in the future then :)
Him having one now could easily clear up points 1 and 2 for a lot of people. So that's the point of having one now. I'm mean we're already at the stage admitting Biden had a bad campaign now even if he beat Sanders.A lot of assumptions here:
A) That Biden will not be properly prepped for a debate with Trump
B) Biden can't handle Trump, who is a terrible debater.
C) That debates even matter anymore... See: 2016.
Don't see the point of trying to drag Biden through the mud right now. Particularly because now Bernie has nothing to lose.
You aren't understanding the situation. Bernie's lead is getting smaller in California, not bigger. Biden won an overwhelming amount of the late vote there and everywhere else. The next states are where Biden was always going to do best and yes now ahead by massive amounts.
He should answer every debate question "I am an astronaut"You ain't gonna beat an astronaut. I think it's the most unassailable profession for public office. It would even beat out military vet if it was possible to measure such things since it's like a combo of everything positive about being a vet while also being an engineer science person who's also been to space.
Because just by being a contender means that his ideas are front and center in a way they wouldn't have been. That will carry on despite him losing the primary and that's more important than the primary.
You ain't gonna beat an astronaut. I think it's the most unassailable profession for public office. It would even beat out military vet if it was possible to measure such things since it's like a combo of everything positive about being a vet while also being an engineer science person who's also been to space.
I'll give him one thing to his credit. From the very beginning he said SC was his firewall and he took advantage of it. And there was a good stretch when absolutely no one here believed that was possible. And even Bernie's campaign themselves, they should have spent more resources contesting it. It was a fatal error on their part.
Well thank you, you as well.??? What you're quoting isn't what you're suggesting I'm saying. I'm saying that others staying in the race -- Butti, Klob, etc. -- aren't accused of sowing division, only that they're splitting the vote, not that nobody else has ever been accused of sowing division in the history of the Democratic primary. IT's like when people talk about Bernie yelling -- Biden yells all the bloody time! He yelled about M4A in who knows how many debates, and I find it to be, at a minimum, a subconscious double standard.
I think Biden needs to go tow-to-tow with Bernie because Bernie is nothing if not consistent. His performances are typically at least good, whereas Biden's been inconsistent. He went after Bernie's M4A hard, and having Joe's record scrutinized should happen as well. I think, considering 2008's Democratic primary and 2016's Republican one, especially since this primary is pretty issues-based, that Biden can survive another couple of weeks.
So I disagree, but you're pretty level-headed even when I disagree, so I know you're coming from a reasoned place.
To drop something in here, Bernie is a terrible debater too. Not in the way Trump is, but he sucks at it in his own way.A lot of assumptions here:
A) That Biden will not be properly prepped for a debate with Trump
B) Biden can't handle Trump, who is a terrible debater.
C) That debates even matter anymore... See: 2016.
Don't see the point of trying to drag Biden through the mud right now. Particularly because now Bernie has nothing to lose.
Him having one now could easily clear up points 1 and 2 for a lot of people. So that's the point of having one now. I'm mean we're already at the stage admitting Biden had a bad campaign now even if he beat Sanders.
I'm following this and understand it pretty closely, yo. This isn't my first primary, and I work in news lol.
Biden has even less to worry about if he ends up getting the vast majority of the rest of the California vote. Candidates have won in more grueling and longer primaries than this. If Biden is a good candidate, he'll sleepwalk into some huge wins this month and it'll be an actual insurmountable delegate lead.
Listen, I'm not interested in debating what is well-documented and clearly traceable in terms of when and how the party faltered, adopted neoliberal ideologies, swung towards corporate interests all the while supporting and implementing criminal foreign policy.
The very fact that you're trying to browbeat me with party propaganda despite my vocal support for Biden come the General speaks volumes as to your own bullish tribal fealty and ill-informed position on issues that are fundamental and crucial to the progressive platform.(Hint: Progressives tend to be driven by humanitarian concerns over party politics and cheap pragmatism masking cynicism and apathy)
I've been dealing with faux-liberals for a very long time and I find them altogether insubstantial. Wealth for the upper tier of our stratified society has grown rapidly under our Democratic presidents and the income gap under Obama reached Great Depression levels of Gilded Age, Dickensian lunacy.
In the last election cycle Hillary - a relentless corporate shill who deigned to declare herself a champion of the middle class despite once sitting on the board of Wal-Mart - called M4A pie-in-the-sky. Fast-forward to our current time when Democrats have cherry-picked Sander's proposals and even adopted many of those positions fully, which is a tacit endorsement of his ideology even while attempting to villify him as you're unfortunately trying to do now.
The thing is, this isn't even about Sanders. I would have been equally happy had Warren surged and taken the nomination.
What this is really about is tribalism and how a monolithic group of supposedly liberal people don't like being reminded how very much full of shit their party actually is.
FYI, you don't get to occupy the high ground when you sell out the working class to the HMO's, allow fossil fuel companies to continue raping the environment, and blow Muslim civilians to smithereens. In this very thread (and others) on this supposedly progressive forum, I've seen people defend Bloomberg - a sexual harasser and overt racist - for the sake of political expediency.
So here's the final score: feel free to make Bernie and people like me who have serious problems with the Democratic Party (of which I am a registered member) the villains. We're used to it and frankly, no amount of scapegoating or deflection is going to make us quit striving towards a better society. This isn't about personalities or tribal politics but rather about what's right and the sooner establishment Dems get that through their heads, the sooner we can at least negotiate and work together in good faith.
And if it makes you feel any better, take comfort in the fact that our political duopoly – which constricts those of us who question the moral integrity of both parties – forces most progressives to vote D all the way down the ballot and I'm certainly no exception in that regard.
And that's really all I have to say about the end of Bernie's progressive run.
Let the Biden celebration continue.
He has his stump speech and that is it.To drop something in here, Bernie is a terrible debater too. Not in the way Trump is, but he sucks at it in his own way.
McSally's sole claim to fame was "I flew fighter jets", which is why she's bombed outside of her House district (which, incidentally, flipped Democrat after she left it to unsuccessfully for Senate). Pretty weak compared to "I went to space".Because just by being a contender means that his ideas are front and center in a way they wouldn't have been. That will carry on despite him losing the primary and that's more important than the primary.
You ain't gonna beat an astronaut. I think it's the most unassailable profession for public office. It would even beat out military vet if it was possible to measure such things since it's like a combo of everything positive about being a vet while also being an engineer science person who's also been to space.
This feels like a pretty good summary.Knowing his path to victory, playing into it, and avoiding bad and controversial policy plans to make him more palatable to a wider range of constituencies is a pretty good campaign, IMO.
Too many of the other candidates tried to pull support from Bernie, but those votes weren't budging.
AZ is the one red state where trump might be a liability. I forgot about Utah, that is Mittens landMcSally's sole claim to fame was "I flew fighter jets", which is why she's bombed outside of her House district (which, incidentally, flipped Democrat after she left it to unsuccessfully for Senate). Pretty weak compared to "I went to space".
This is a great post lolYou ain't gonna beat an astronaut. I think it's the most unassailable profession for public office. It would even beat out military vet if it was possible to measure such things since it's like a combo of everything positive about being a vet while also being an engineer science person who's also been to space.
That is a valid vector to come at Biden from that isn't just lashing out.
I think he's a liability in Texas too. Not that it's going to flip, but he won it by far smaller margins than is normal for Republicans in 2016 (in fact he won Ohio by more), I see him damaging the downballot when up against Biden.AZ is the one red state where trump might be a liability. I forgot about Utah, that is Mittens land
Yeah, this ended up just nuking so many campaigns. Pete's obnoxious aboutface in the middle of his campaign in approach/policy was based on the recognition that you had to go around Bernie to win.Knowing his path to victory, playing into it, and avoiding bad and controversial policy plans to make him more palatable to a wider range of constituencies is a pretty good campaign, IMO.
Too many of the other candidates tried to pull support from Bernie, but those votes weren't budging.
It's an insurmountable lead now. Are you familiar with the next states to hold primaries? Do you see the polling? The demographics that are left and with which Biden does best? There is absolutely no realistic chance of this ending any other way and that's very, very clear from the data.
Well thank you, you as well.
As for the bold, calling for people to drop at the start of the race isn't really the same as calling for it to happen at the midpoint, when one candidate is a million votes ahead of his rival. The situations are just different, and since calls to drop always happen at this point in the race, I don't think it makes sense to think this situation points to any perticular bias towards Bernie, even if you think others do.
Now you're just talking right over me when I'm telling you why I think there should be one. I'm not asking for you to agree with me.But he doesn't need to have one publicly to be prepared for Trump in September. I don't see the reason.
Assuming Trump even debates him... Further, assuming that anyone even gives a shit about debates.
Listen, I'm not interested in debating what is well-documented and clearly traceable in terms of when and how the party faltered, adopted neoliberal ideologies, swung towards corporate interests all the while supporting and implementing criminal foreign policy.
The very fact that you're trying to browbeat me with party propaganda despite my vocal support for Biden come the General speaks volumes as to your own bullish tribal fealty and ill-informed position on issues that are fundamental and crucial to the progressive platform.(Hint: Progressives tend to be driven by humanitarian concerns over party politics and cheap pragmatism masking cynicism and apathy)
I've been dealing with faux-liberals for a very long time and I find them altogether insubstantial. Wealth for the upper tier of our stratified society has grown rapidly under our Democratic presidents and the income gap under Obama reached Great Depression levels of Gilded Age, Dickensian lunacy.
In the last election cycle Hillary - a relentless corporate shill who deigned to declare herself a champion of the middle class despite once sitting on the board of Wal-Mart - called M4A pie-in-the-sky. Fast-forward to our current time when Democrats have cherry-picked Sander's proposals and even adopted many of those positions fully, which is a tacit endorsement of his ideology even while attempting to villify him as you're unfortunately trying to do now.
The thing is, this isn't even about Sanders. I would have been equally happy had Warren surged and taken the nomination.
What this is really about is tribalism and how a monolithic group of supposedly liberal people don't like being reminded how very much full of shit their party actually is.
FYI, you don't get to occupy the high ground when you sell out the working class to the HMO's, allow fossil fuel companies to continue raping the environment, and blow Muslim civilians to smithereens. In this very thread (and others) on this supposedly progressive forum, I've seen people defend Bloomberg - a sexual harasser and overt racist - for the sake of political expediency.
So here's the final score: feel free to make Bernie and people like me who have serious problems with the Democratic Party (of which I am a registered member) the villains. We're used to it and frankly, no amount of scapegoating or deflection is going to make us quit striving towards a better society. This isn't about personalities or tribal politics but rather about what's right and the sooner establishment Dems get that through their heads, the sooner we can at least negotiate and work together in good faith.
And if it makes you feel any better, take comfort in the fact that our political duopoly – which constricts those of us who question the moral integrity of both parties – forces most progressives to vote D all the way down the ballot and I'm certainly no exception in that regard.
And that's really all I have to say about the end of Bernie's progressive run.
Let the Biden celebration continue.
thanks for the laugh. Biden has barely campaigned and as soon as he has clinched the Dem nomination the media will turn on him. Don't say we didn't warn you
Now you're just talking right over me when I'm telling you why I think there should be one. I'm not asking for you to agree with me.
Which is why it's a valid vector to come at Biden from. The only reason Sanders should still be in the race is to push policy. That's pushing policy while also not giving Trump any ammo. And it's a question that may well be on the minds of voters who can be persuaded not to sit out.The thing with that is that Trump himself can't use that attack. Every single budget his administration proposed had dramatic cuts to entitlements, administration Biden was in only expanded them.
As a big Bernie fan, (Warren too, of course!) even I get this. Crazy that people aren't seeing this. I think it'll sink in, however - as a few posters have pointed out nicely.Yep and the sad part of that truth is that people won't acknowledge how successful the progressive movement has been at pushing dems left because they don't want to accept that if Biden wins, he'll have the most progressive platform of anyone to hold the office. Except maybe for some of FDR's more out there ideas.
That's the thing: we have ample data to cover most or all demographics at this point. Biden is so strong across so many there isn't any room for a weakness to be exposed or exploited. The remaining states aren't that different from the ones that have already voted.I'm literally in one of those states and want my vote cast and voice heard. ;)
It's really not insurmountable. After this month, it could very well be. But this isn't a historic lead, far as I can tell.
And it may behoove us to see if Biden has weaknesses that are not yet realized. In Michigan, he did very well in all demographics I could see. There are some important states coming up, and if there's anything like Hillary 2016 Michigan -- i.e. some demographic that Biden does poorly in that wasn't clear prior to the vote -- we should know. If there's not, at the very least, I'll feel much better that he's consolidating that kind of support going into the general and winning hand over fist.
Like I said, it's not that the deleget lead is ridiculously huge (though it is very meaningful), it's that there is no reason to think the voters in the next states will behave massively different than the voters in states that have already gone. They will behave similarly, and even if there is a variation, that variation would have to be gigantic.I know the situations are different, sure. But I don't see how staying in sows division when the delegate lead isn't enormous. It's 50 - 60 more than Obama had around this point, and about the size when he eventually one after all the states had voted. By the end of Tuesday, or by Georgia, we could see him ahead several hundred. And in that case, I 100% don't see a reason for Bernie to stay in.
But I do think -- and I copied you in this one so you can see more of my reasoning to the other user -- that probing for weaknesses and testing him on a 1:1 debate is a good thing.
If you follow the thread the OP was stating that Biden surged because of his spectacular SC debate performance.I'm confused. Are you somehow suggesting the media will be kind to Sanders? Lol