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Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,284
I like how this guy doesn't mention healthcare at all in his post. Guess he couldn't find a way to spin that one huh?

He did, actually. The line about his kids having insurance while marginalized folks don't.

Re: the people begging Sanders to drop out

Is it not important for him to continue to spread his message as much as he can while he can?

Now is the time to drop though. "His message" gets less compelling the more he gets stomped. If you want concessions from someone, you need to be holding some cards. Sanders will keep losing cards because the gap between him and Biden is only going to grow, not shrink.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Just because the point is made doesn't mean people have to agree with it. Biden isn't guaranteed victory until he actually wins, which is why both Hillary and Sanders stayed until the end in 2008 and 2016, respectively.

When Bernie was leading and other Democrats were propping up an uninspired Biden campaign and Biden was nearly declared dead, the thought process wasn't that others needed to drop so we could get on with the general.

We're literally putting a guy up against Trump who can effectively be beaten down about cutting entitlements, and we're okay with him not being tested on it like Sanders was with M4A. Biden literally has zilch to worry about if he sleepwalks into next Tuesday with an overwhelming win again and just notches win after win.



Biden has quite a bit of baggage and bad votes that he hasn't talked about. Trump has said he would consider cutting social security/Medicare. Only one of the main two candidates in the Dem race hasn't said that, and it would be a powerful distinction. Biden had no problem going hard after Bernie's M4A plan; I think Biden needs to be prepared when his statements about Social Security and Medicare come up in a general election debate.

The primary is over. Whatever point anyone is trying to make needs to recognize that fact and come up with arguments that don't incorporate the idea of the primary not being over. Because it's over.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
My point is: criticize Briahna for her own views instead of blaming Bernie for not "handling" her properly. She is her own person.

She is acting as his voice. That is my literal point. A candidate doesn't hire thousands of people and then let them do whatever. She is his campaign. He is the candidate.
 
In Arizona news:
markkellyvsmcsally-9900000000079e3c.png

NetFavorabilityofSenatorsandSenateCandidates-9900000000079e3c.png
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Just because the point is made doesn't mean people have to agree with it. Biden isn't guaranteed victory until he actually wins, which is why both Hillary and Sanders stayed until the end in 2008 and 2016, respectively.

When Bernie was leading and other Democrats were propping up an uninspired Biden campaign and Biden was nearly declared dead, the thought process wasn't that others needed to drop so we could get on with the general.

We're literally putting a guy up against Trump who can effectively be beaten down about cutting entitlements, and we're okay with him not being tested on it like Sanders was with M4A. Biden literally has zilch to worry about if he sleepwalks into next Tuesday with an overwhelming win again and just notches win after win.



Biden has quite a bit of baggage and bad votes that he hasn't talked about. Trump has said he would consider cutting social security/Medicare. Only one of the main two candidates in the Dem race hasn't said that, and it would be a powerful distinction. Biden had no problem going hard after Bernie's M4A plan; I think Biden needs to be prepared when his statements about Social Security and Medicare come up in a general election debate.
The implication that Bernie is receiving calls to drop out when other candidates don't is just straight up false. It happens every single primary at this point. That's not a matter of opinion.

As for why there weren't call for this before, polls are not elections. A shit load of people have now voted, and Biden is the clear choice. There is no actual data we can point to that shows any realistic hope of Bernie winning.

Comparing now to how thing were when 3 states voted is just not valid.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I'm more of the mind that Bernie was always the underdog even when he was in the lead. I'm not sure if running a better campaign would have changed things because he may have never had a chance with the older black vote.

WMrtnzP.png
Yeah, that short time Bernie was in the lead nationally was because the Bloomberg surge ate Biden more than anything.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
I think people are underestimating how effective "you're full of shit" is as a campaign message against Trump, lol.

It's really not that effective. Everybody has said it for 4 years and it has meant nothing. Sure, it'll make a few people feel all warm and gooey inside that our nominee called Trump "full of shit" but then what? Those people were likely already voting for Biden anyway and for people who aren't paying attention/are on the side lines, it's not really going to convince them about much and may even lead to people tuning out because of the "lack of civility."

Remember, when we're fighting the GOP, the rules change completely.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,089
All of this pearl clutching about dropping out if your boy can't handle Bernie he's not handling Trump. He hasn't had a real debate since Paul Ryan and it's insane not to test him before throwing him to the dogs directly at Trump. This a test run if you will to see if Biden will work for the people he's constantly shat on through out this entire primary process.
 

shamanick

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,072
He undermined his own point by showing how he doesn't know how exit polls work. They are literally just asking random people who voted who they voted for. That premise stands on 1) people wanting to talk to you, and 2) people willing to tell you the truth. Just a little of bit of critical thinking would tell you why they might not max up one to one with actual votes
yes, and exit polls work the same in Bolivia. I get that people are deliberately missing the point of the tweet for personal reasons but there's no need to be disingenuous

 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
I remember the Super Tuesday in mid March of 2016 when Hilary won Ohio, Michigan, IL and another big state effectively killing any chance of a Bernie come from behind win. Everyone expected him to drop out but he continued on and a few weeks later they went to NY and he called her unqualified to run for president. The debate in NY was eye opening and tbh shouldve been a big red flag because she got boo'ed pretty badly. i couldnt believe my ears.

We simply cannot have history repeat itself. im ok with him sticking around until next tuesday but once thats done, he needs to gracefully bow out. We need to raise money for the GE, we need to spend precious news cycles going after trump than each other. Bernie did not concede until two weeks after losing california, the last primary in june. If that happens again, i have no doubt that people will turn on Biden just like they turned on Hillary.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
his point was about US interference in foreign countries and the different standards we apply to our own elections, but you'd rather change the subject. I get it
No, it wasn't. He's claiming that the US elections are rigged by applying a ridiculous argument about how "exit polls would lead to a coup elsewhere" or "be investigated." The polling before and after the elections here was telling a very specific story of late deciders breaking hard for Biden nationwide. Boots just doesn't want to believe that Bernie's getting blown the fuck out and is inventing an excuse for him.
 

Geg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,546
Neat



What was the percentage of bernie supporters who went to trump in 2016, was that also around 7%?
 

Armadilo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,877
Warren should probably wrap this up and endorse Biden to end this, time to blow out states and take the majority of delegates and just be done.

This isn't even a close match like it was last time. Just finish this.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
All of this pearl clutching about dropping out if your boy can't handle Bernie he's not handling Trump. He hasn't had a real debate since Paul Ryan and it's insane not to test him before throwing him to the dogs directly at Trump. This a test run if anything to see if Biden will work for the people he's constantly shat on through out this entire primary process.

Meh, I have no problem with this debate. Debating another person who shares your values, is a lot different from someone with opposing values.

Also, debates never mattered.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
He's not right. The Democrats weren't selling out the working and lower classes, they were adapting to a world in which the white working class had sold out the rest of the working class and the Dems because they were upset the Dems backed civil rights. That's where the "Dems abandoned us" rhetoric actually originates from.

Listen, I'm not interested in debating what is well-documented and clearly traceable in terms of when and how the party faltered, adopted neoliberal ideologies, swung towards corporate interests all the while supporting and implementing criminal foreign policy.

The very fact that you're trying to browbeat me with party propaganda despite my vocal support for Biden come the General speaks volumes as to your own bullish tribal fealty and ill-informed position on issues that are fundamental and crucial to the progressive platform.(Hint: Progressives tend to be driven by humanitarian concerns over party politics and cheap pragmatism masking cynicism and apathy)

I've been dealing with faux-liberals for a very long time and I find them altogether insubstantial. Wealth for the upper tier of our stratified society has grown rapidly under our Democratic presidents and the income gap under Obama reached Great Depression levels of Gilded Age, Dickensian lunacy.

In the last election cycle Hillary - a relentless corporate shill who deigned to declare herself a champion of the middle class despite once sitting on the board of Wal-Mart - called M4A pie-in-the-sky. Fast-forward to our current time when Democrats have cherry-picked Sander's proposals and even adopted many of those positions fully, which is a tacit endorsement of his ideology even while attempting to villify him as you're unfortunately trying to do now.

The thing is, this isn't even about Sanders. I would have been equally happy had Warren surged and taken the nomination.

What this is really about is tribalism and how a monolithic group of supposedly liberal people don't like being reminded how very much full of shit their party actually is.

FYI, you don't get to occupy the high ground when you sell out the working class to the HMO's, allow fossil fuel companies to continue raping the environment, and blow Muslim civilians to smithereens. In this very thread (and others) on this supposedly progressive forum, I've seen people defend Bloomberg - a sexual harasser and overt racist - for the sake of political expediency.

So here's the final score: feel free to make Bernie and people like me who have serious problems with the Democratic Party (of which I am a registered member) the villains. We're used to it and frankly, no amount of scapegoating or deflection is going to make us quit striving towards a better society. This isn't about personalities or tribal politics but rather about what's right and the sooner establishment Dems get that through their heads, the sooner we can at least negotiate and work together in good faith.

And if it makes you feel any better, take comfort in the fact that our political duopoly – which constricts those of us who question the moral integrity of both parties – forces most progressives to vote D all the way down the ballot and I'm certainly no exception in that regard.

And that's really all I have to say about the end of Bernie's progressive run.

Let the Biden celebration continue.
 

V_Arnold

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,166
Hungary
She is acting as his voice. That is my literal point. A candidate doesn't hire thousands of people and then let them do whatever. She is his campaign. He is the candidate.

I disagree with this. No compromises, enough people have been bullied to be stepped down /fired by the Sanders campaign, while the "Putin must be happy right now" Carville is still smiling on MSNBC. Do not give them an inch.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
We simply cannot have history repeat itself. im ok with him sticking around until next tuesday but once thats done, he needs to gracefully bow out. We need to raise money for the GE, we need to spend precious news cycles going after trump than each other. Bernie did not concede until two weeks after losing california, the last primary in june. If that happens again, i have no doubt that people will turn on Biden just like they turned on Hillary.
I doubt folks will about face on Biden that same way, but it's a devastating soundbite for the general.
 

darkside

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,290
I remember the Super Tuesday in mid March of 2016 when Hilary won Ohio, Michigan, IL and another big state effectively killing any chance of a Bernie come from behind win. Everyone expected him to drop out but he continued on and a few weeks later they went to NY and he called her unqualified to run for president. The debate in NY was eye opening and tbh shouldve been a big red flag because she got boo'ed pretty badly. i couldnt believe my ears.

We simply cannot have history repeat itself. im ok with him sticking around until next tuesday but once thats done, he needs to gracefully bow out. We need to raise money for the GE, we need to spend precious news cycles going after trump than each other. Bernie did not concede until two weeks after losing california, the last primary in june. If that happens again, i have no doubt that people will turn on Biden just like they turned on Hillary.

Biden should do this one debate with Bernie, it'd be good for everyone. But there won't be a reason to do any more when Bernie is trailing by 300+ delegates after next Tuesday.
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,576
Warren should probably wrap this up and endorse Biden to end this, time to blow out states and take the majority of delegates and just be done.

This isn't even a close match like it was last time. Just finish this.
It's funny that this primary isn't as close to 2016 (which itself was nowhere near as close as 2008), when I'd consider Clinton to be to the left of Biden. More and more it's looking like a decent chunk of Sanders' 2016 support was simply the anti-Clinton vote.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,081
The primary is over. Whatever point anyone is trying to make needs to recognize that fact and come up with arguments that don't incorporate the idea of the primary not being over. Because it's over.

Biden hasn't clinched the victory. How can a candidate that's apparently as bad as Bernie with no floor or ceiling derail Biden's campaign, exactly? Let Biden win some more easy victories and be done with it.

The implication that Bernie is receiving calls to drop out when other candidates don't is just straight up false. It happens every single primary at this point. That's not a matter of opinion.

As for why there weren't call for this before, polls are not elections. A shit load of people have now voted, and Biden is the clear choice. There is no actual data we can point to that shows any realistic hope of Bernie winning.

Comparing now to how thing were when 3 states voted is just not valid.

I don't know who you're referring to with the first statement because I don't see where I said that?

A shit ton of people's votes need to be counted in California, which has taken a long time to count (for the better). Why can't the rest of the shit ton of people who haven't voted have a say?

Because the argument that Sanders should stay in -- which is an argument I made in 2016 when I voted Hillary in the primaries -- is also one Hillary and Bill and all their surrogates said in 2008 ("Let this play out!"). And the gap they had (100 - 110) isn't dramatically different from this one. If Bernie is this bad, Biden will sleepwalk into an actual official win sooner rather than later.

By late Tuesday/early Wednesday, if the gap is super huge at that point (my state is voting as well and looks very good for Biden) -- and I mean historically huge for what once was a competitive race -- I'll probably figure that it's over by then. But I don't see the rust as of March 11.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,112
Meh, I have no problem with this debate. Debating another person who shares your values, is a lot different from someone with opposing values.

Also, debates never mattered.
Debates and Endorsements for the most part matter little. People talk abotu Clyburn, I would argue he just bumped up the win a few points. There isn't a Clyburn in every state. The numbers don't like. People are tuned in and turned on, they are united in a single goal and last night showed that
 

V_Arnold

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,166
Hungary
It's funny that this primary isn't as close to 2016 (which itself was nowhere near as close as 2008), when I'd consider Clinton to be to the left of Biden. More and more it's looking like a decent chunk of Sanders' 2016 support was simply the anti-Clinton vote.

Sadly this seems to be true.
The left is big in the US now, but it is still not enough.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Biden hasn't clinched the victory. How can a candidate that's apparently as bad as Bernie with no floor or ceiling derail Biden's campaign, exactly? Let Biden win some more easy victories and be done with it.

He clinched it last night. Your argument can't include references to Bernie's chances to win the primary. Those chances aren't a thing.
 

HipsterMorty

alt account
Banned
Jan 25, 2020
901
Yes, and that process has happened. Biden won. There is no reasonable chance for Bernie to get a plurality, let alone a majority, of delegates.

It's Bernie's right to continue on, but that doesn't mean we can't think it's a bad and fruitless idea with no real upside.

If he wants to use the debate to further push his policies, fine. But going hard under a mistaken belief he might win as a result benefits no one.
If going hard on Biden isn't going to change anything, then Biden is the strong candidate that you're saying he is and Bernie should concede and endorse Biden. If a hail mary attempt at changing the tides is enough to hurt Biden, then he's not the strong candidate that everyone thinks he is. It's better that Biden faces this stuff now than in the General.

And if Biden loses in the general because Sanders supports abstain or w/e, don't come blaming us. You want to talk about unity, then maybe we shouldn't have nominated somebody that tells voters to "go vote for Trump" when they criticize his policies. And maybe we shouldn't have nominated somebody who is more willing to compromise with Republicans than he is people who are in the same fucking party.

Edit: And just to clarify, I fully intend on voting for Biden. But the unity talk is bs when it only works in one direction.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,081
All of this pearl clutching about dropping out if your boy can't handle Bernie he's not handling Trump. He hasn't had a real debate since Paul Ryan and it's insane not to test him before throwing him to the dogs directly at Trump. This a test run if you will to see if Biden will work for the people he's constantly shat on through out this entire primary process.

And it's the same thing I read on this very board, only in reverse, around or before South Carolina!
 

Kuga

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,268
True. He should stay in as long as he wants, honestly. It won't materially harm Dems, Biden, or their candidates' supporters.
Yeah, he's certainly free to do whatever he wants. I'm just curious as to how long he'll stay in.

My inner pragmatist is telling me that the earlier he quits, the more influence he can have over the party -- where as if he fights until the bitter end and doesn't end things amicably, he won't have any political capital with party leadership. Many of his ideas are popular with the public and I think his best shot at pushing policy further left at this point is to work with the party.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,089
Meh, I have no problem with this debate. Debating another person who shares your values, is a lot different from someone with opposing values.

Also, debates never mattered.
Yeah, I already know and said it won't change anything plenty of times enough already. It is a good time for Biden to start winning people over to his side and clear a lot of doubts for people about himself.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
If going hard on Biden isn't going to change anything, then Biden is the strong candidate that you're saying he is and Bernie should concede and endorse Biden. If a hail mary attempt at changing the tides is enough to hurt Biden, then he's not the strong candidate that everyone thinks he is. It's better that Biden faces this stuff now than in the General.

And if Biden loses in the general because Sanders supports abstain or w/e, don't come blaming us. You want to talk about unity, then maybe we shouldn't have nominated somebody that tells voters to "go vote for Trump" when they criticize his policies. And maybe we shouldn't have nominated somebody who is more willing to compromise with Republicans than he is people who are in the same fucking party.

Hard agree.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,081
He clinched it last night. Your argument can't include references to Bernie's chances to win the primary. Those chances aren't a thing.

According to the numbers, he has not. He objectively, officially has not clinched a win, especially with more votes in California that remain to be counted. The delegate lead he has isn't an impossible feat to pass, nor does Biden have much to worry about if this month goes as well for him as I'd expect it to be.
 

Kusagari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,421
I really don't think people realize just how far left Bernie managed to push the party in four years.

Delaney and Hickenlooper were running on platforms significantly to the left of Obama and Hillary.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Biden hasn't clinched the victory. How can a candidate that's apparently as bad as Bernie with no floor or ceiling derail Biden's campaign, exactly? Let Biden win some more easy victories and be done with it.



I don't know who you're referring to with the first statement because I don't see where I said that?

A shit ton of people's votes need to be counted in California, which has taken a long time to count (for the better). Why can't the rest of the shit ton of people who haven't voted have a say?

Because the argument that Sanders should stay in -- which is an argument I made in 2016 when I voted Hillary in the primaries -- is also one Hillary and Bill and all their surrogates said in 2008 ("Let this play out!"). And the gap they had (100 - 110) isn't dramatically different from this one. If Bernie is this bad, Biden will sleepwalk into an actual official win sooner rather than later.

By late Tuesday/early Wednesday, if the gap is super huge at that point (my state is voting as well and looks very good for Biden) -- and I mean historically huge for what once was a competitive race -- I'll probably figure that it's over by then. But I don't see the rust as of March 11.
As for your first point, you said that right here:
Again, if debating Bernie and campaigning against him "sows" division -- an accusation that's never leveled at others -- then he's not really a good candidate. Obama was able to get past the division and the racist Hillary voters and win handily.
Hillary should have suspended her campaign as well.

And, fine. I think the public health issue is a valid on that changes the dynamics of the situation, but again, I do think it is Bernie's right to stay in. I just don't think it's the best decision.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,081
If going hard on Biden isn't going to change anything, then Biden is the strong candidate that you're saying he is and Bernie should concede and endorse Biden. If a hail mary attempt at changing the tides is enough to hurt Biden, then he's not the strong candidate that everyone thinks he is. It's better that Biden faces this stuff now than in the General.

And if Biden loses in the general because Sanders supports abstain or w/e, don't come blaming us. You want to talk about unity, then maybe we shouldn't have nominated somebody that tells voters to "go vote for Trump" when they criticize his policies. And maybe we shouldn't have nominated somebody who is more willing to compromise with Republicans than he is people who are in the same fucking party.

Edit: And just to clarify, I fully intend on voting for Biden. But the unity talk is bs when it only works in one direction.

giphy.gif


I'm putting my ballot in for Bernie in Florida and I expect this state to easily go Biden. But people are basically telling me, it's clinched, I don't count, delegates are insurmountable, if we don't stop it now, it may cost us the election.

And like... no, hard no. If Trump could imply things about the size of his dick going into May of 2016, I'm sure Biden will survive potentially easy March wins that actually make him impossible to catch up with.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
According to the numbers, he has not. He objectively, officially has not clinched a win, especially with more votes in California that remain to be counted. The delegate lead he has isn't an impossible feat to pass, nor does Biden have much to worry about if this month goes as well for him as I'd expect it to be.

You aren't understanding the situation. Bernie's lead is getting smaller in California, not bigger. Biden won an overwhelming amount of the late vote there and everywhere else. The next states are where Biden was always going to do best and yes now ahead by massive amounts.
 

Maxim726x

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
13,065
Bernie only talked about policy positions in the news conference. I doubt he'll bring up anything else. This is the guy who said "we're all sick and tired of hearing about Hillary's emails" in a 2016 debate.

Fair point.

I have nothing against Bernie, and actually I'm thankful for him re-framing the debate. But... it was only a few weeks ago that he was demonizing the 'Democratic establishment' on Twitter.

As long as we don't lose the forest for the trees, all is good in my book.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
If going hard on Biden isn't going to change anything, then Biden is the strong candidate that you're saying he is and Bernie should concede and endorse Biden. If a hail mary attempt at changing the tides is enough to hurt Biden, then he's not the strong candidate that everyone thinks he is. It's better that Biden faces this stuff now than in the General.

And if Biden loses in the general because Sanders supports abstain or w/e, don't come blaming us. You want to talk about unity, then maybe we shouldn't have nominated somebody that tells voters to "go vote for Trump" when they criticize his policies. And maybe we shouldn't have nominated somebody who is more willing to compromise with Republicans than he is people who are in the same fucking party.

Edit: And just to clarify, I fully intend on voting for Biden. But the unity talk is bs when it only works in one direction.
If Bernie was in the position Biden is in, I would be happily calling for Biden to drop out. I voted for Bernie, I wanted him to win.

But my personal preferences don't really impact a dispassionate analysis of the current electoral situation.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,463
Clinton was to the right of Biden. That speaks to the power of Sanders. He moved the party left!


Yep and the sad part of that truth is that people won't acknowledge how successful the progressive movement has been at pushing dems left because they don't want to accept that if Biden wins, he'll have the most progressive platform of anyone to hold the office. Except maybe for some of FDR's more out there ideas.
 
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