Democratic Presidential Primaries & Caucuses |March OT| Last Tuesday was 1000 years ago, old news no one cares about (Discussion Guidelines in OP)

[Tobor]

You're kinda being disingenuous with your lack of framing the situation in its entirety.

If Sanders actually had support from the party and Dem leadership, his base would've expanded immensely with older black voters and u

Instead of constantly trying to smear his coalition every step of the way, mainstream media could've helped in bringing in more older black voters into a larger populous movement that is ready an energized while also being able to sway populous Trump supporters.

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"The party" is who just voted against Sanders. You want the people who just voted against Sanders to work to convince voters who voted against Sanders to vote for Sanders. You see the problem?

Don't blame the media, either. The media had been shoveling dirt on Biden for quite a while.

Sanders is the one who needed to engage older black voters. Sanders needed to convince the party. He didn't get it done.

 

[NoName999]

very happy then that the democratic establishment raised hell over such uncouth behavior. its not like their chosen candidate benefits strongly from suppressed primary turnout, especially youth voters. also democratic controlled states don't engage in voter supression. democrats are perfect angels who do no wrong and are always on the side of the people.

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What is wrong with you?

 

[Ensirius]

The fact that Biden will be the nominee makes gives me absolutely zero hope.
I am sad, angry, and above all hopeless.

 

[SneakersSO]

So what's the alternative? If we're screwed either way, the better option is to just not do anything at all?

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You are screwed either way. Just sit it out and learn to not care about politics in the USA. It's just much easier that way.

 

[viskod]

Your choices are a progressive climate plan or climate collapse.

So start agitating for the progressive plan, because half of a moderate plan will not save you.

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Jesus christ even the head of the Data for Progress progressive think tank said that Biden's climate change plans were "ambitious". So many of you need to pull your heads out of the goddamn sand.

 

[King Metal Zel]

These kind of practices infuriate me as people keep trying to push the "well, the youth just don't go to vote" bullshit narrative.

 

[viskod]

These kind of practices infuriate me as people keep trying to push the "well, the youth just don't go to vote" bullshit narrative.

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The youth vote does not vote.

This does nothing to disprove that.

 

[gozu]

NOW can white people be blamed for something. They weren't being secret progressives. They were just plain sexist. lol

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I don 't want to believe it but I can't argue with those numbers.

My take is that large amounts of black voters in 2020 decided white voters are too racist or too selfish for Bernie to win the general.

Last elections, they correctly assessed America's racism. SNL's post-election sketch tracked with my own experience



As someone who's ever donated to one candidate (Bernie), Can I say with confidence that Bernie would've won? Post-Corbyn disaster? No. I had to gamble on it because I firmly believe we need to start drastic action regarding global warming yesterday.

ps: and yes, Bernie's anti-nuclear position is nonsense.

So yes. Earth is fucked but it'll be fucked slightly slower if Biden's in charge. Trump being a wannabe dictator who shits all over the constitution while also being a fucking moron among many other less flattering things is secondary to that but still important in the small scheme of things.

 

[King Metal Zel]

The youth vote does not vote.

This does nothing to disprove that.

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How so? I see a lot of young people waiting in a long ass line, and it's far from the first such picture I've seen of the type from yesterday. Care to elaborate?

 

[gozu]

These kind of practices infuriate me as people keep trying to push the "well, the youth just don't go to vote" bullshit narrative.

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Anecdotal evidence is not the kind of thing a reasonable person bases their conclusions on. The democratic party is not trying to suppress the youth vote in the primary. Trying to imply otherwise absent overwhelming evidence is unreasonable.

 

[entremet]

It's really depressing to see Bernie underperform in ways that imply:

- A significant number of his 2016 votes were simply anti-Hillary votes.
- A significant portion of his base was not particularly driven by ideology.
- The clamor for a populist movement among Democrats is much less than we thought.
- People are feeling cowed by Trump.
- The Democratic primary's lurch toward the left as a whole was probably entirely unnecessary, given the above.

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For your first point, or a good portion of the electorate didn't see Clinton as an extension of Obama (Yes, I know she served in his adminstration). Biden clearly is seen as a return to normalcy. And his anti-black voting record (Crime Bill) hasn't hurt him.

 

[Deleted member 9972]

Those Michigan white male vote swings between 2016 and 2020 are really something, especially if other demographics are unchanged. That's the most definitive case I've seen so far of a penis-based vote rather than an ideology-based one, and it's a lot larger than I would have expected.

 

[DickGrayson]

The fact that Biden will be the nominee makes gives me absolutely zero hope.
I am sad, angry, and above all hopeless.

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There is only one way forward at this point so we must slog on, work must continue under the assumption that Biden is the nominee.

Our democracy isn't built by a single executive.

 

[TheGhost]

Nothing for nothing but Biden had a great speech last night. I think that's what matters more than any debate this weekend. People need to hear some hope. Reasonable and reachable hope, saying things people can actually see happening in his term.
The American public wants a return to normalcy, it needs to recover from Trump and it needs a breather before it gets moved all the way to the left left.

 

[Templeusox]

The Democrats need to do for voting modernization what the Republicans did for voter suppression. Top-down change at federal, state, and local levels. It essentially needs to be as easy as voting on an app or the numbers are going to continue to trend down nationally.

 

[entremet]

The Democrats need to do for voting modernization what the Republicans did for voter suppression. Top-down change at federal, state, and local levels. It essentially needs to be as easy as voting on an app or the numbers are going to continue to trend down nationally.

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We've been doing that in the Blue States. Guess what's happening the Red States?

 

[The Albatross]

In states like Michigan that Sanders surprisingly carried in 2016, he's doing poorly. Groups that broke for him 4 years ago, working class union members for instance, are overwhelmingly supporting Biden by 25%+.

2016 is shaping up to be the anomoly here, not 2020, and a solid argument is starting to take shape that Sanders surge in 2016 was propelled as much by the same thing that propelled Trump's surge in 2016, not so much the working class nativist populist revolution that we've thought for 4 years, but perhaps a bit of that combined with discrimination against a female candidate.

very happy then that the democratic establishment raised hell over such uncouth behavior. its not like their chosen candidate benefits strongly from suppressed primary turnout, especially youth voters. also democratic controlled states don't engage in voter supression. democrats are perfect angels who do no wrong and are always on the side of the people.

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Suppressed priamry turnout?

I think the phrase you're looking for is "record breaking primary turnout."

This primary is on track to be the highest engagement in Democratic party primary history.

 

[DickGrayson]

Nothing for nothing but Biden had a great speech last night. I think that's what matters more than any debate this weekend. People need to hear some hope. Reasonable and reachable hope, saying things people can actually see happening in his term.
The American public wants a return to normalcy, it needs to recover from Trump and it needs a breather before it gets moved all the way to the left left.

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He did seem to rise to the occasion and delivered an address that was very presidenital. It makes me think his bumbling gaffes are more intentional than not.

 

[viskod]

How so? I see a lot of young people waiting in a long ass line, and it's far from the first such picture I've seen of the type from yesterday. Care to elaborate?

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Because every election the demographic data shows that the youth vote does not turn out. Your anecdotal evidence of people you see in a tweet about long lines means nothing.

 

[Deleted member 31104]

The Democrats need to do for voting modernization what the Republicans did for voter suppression. Top-down change at federal, state, and local levels. It essentially needs to be as easy as voting on an app or the numbers are going to continue to trend down nationally.

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I mean for progressives that's something you could conceivably get out of a Biden administration, of course it's a difficult thing to do at Federal levels but if they made funding available for voting modernisation then at least you'd get a lot of the blue states on board and some of the purple states where the democrats have some control

 

[King Metal Zel]

Anecdotal evidence is not the kind of thing a reasonable person bases their conclusions on. The democratic party is not trying to suppress the youth vote in the primary. Trying to imply otherwise absent overwhelming evidence is unreasonable.

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I know what those concepts are, thank you. I'm expressing these fears because I'm afraid the DNC (and a lot of people here) are treking straight into 2016 mindsets and ignoring/dismissing the Sanders base. The ones who stayed at home last time and could very easily consider doing the same this time as well. They stayed home because they felt the DNC is pushing their thumb on the scale and many post information like this and feel the same is happening again. If we don't at least acknowledge the possibility that the DNC is pushing Biden hard and just dismiss the young people as simply "Oh they don't vote so who gives a fuck" will likely cause them to do just that.

Sorry I know that wasn't the original topic of discussion, I've strayed a bit. I'm just legit afraid we're repeating the mistakes of 4 years ago and simply dismissing things as "Well they just didn't like Hilary" and then clapping our hands together as if we've done enough and it's in the bag. We need to acknowledge these suspicious sightings people are posting on social media or at least be less dismissive of them. Places like Twitter and Facebook are where the battlegrounds are being drawn and ignoring that is just going to be a repeat. I can't do another 4 years of Trump I just can't.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

He's not getting a wealth tax.

$500 million is pocket change to him.

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500 M isn't pocket change for anyone.

 

[TwoDelay]

500 M isn't pocket change for anyone.

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For bloomberg it is

 

[DickGrayson]

Sorry I know that wasn't the original topic of discussion, I've strayed a bit. I'm just legit afraid we're repeating the mistakes of 4 years ago and simply dismissing things as "Well they just didn't like Hilary" and then clapping our hands together as if we've done enough and it's in the bag. We need to acknowledge these suspicious sightings people are posting on social media or at least be less dismissive of them. Places like Twitter and Facebook are where the battlegrounds are being drawn and ignoring that is just going to be a repeat. I can't do another 4 years of Trump I just can't.

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Places like Twitter and Facebook matter less than you are implying... but they aren't immaterial. Even if only 10% of voters primarily get their news from Twitter that's a rather large chunk.

However, social media is replete with manipulation and out of context anger. If we treat them as the primary battleground for information we're going to lose because the left is really bad at Twitter and Facebook and just as prone to spread fake news.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

At the end of the day, I don't care if Biden or sanders win. As long as trump is gone.

 

[viskod]

I know what those concepts are, thank you. I'm expressing these fears because I'm afraid the DNC (and a lot of people here) are treking straight into 2016 mindsets and ignoring/dismissing the Sanders base. The ones who stayed at home last time and could very easily consider doing the same this time as well. They stayed home because they felt the DNC is pushing their thumb on the scale and many post information like this and feel the same is happening again. If we don't at least acknowledge the possibility that the DNC is pushing Biden hard and just dismiss the young people as simply "Oh they don't vote so who gives a fuck" will likely cause them to do just that.

Sorry I know that wasn't the original topic of discussion, I've strayed a bit. I'm just legit afraid we're repeating the mistakes of 4 years ago and simply dismissing things as "Well they just didn't like Hilary" and then clapping our hands together as if we've done enough and it's in the bag. We need to acknowledge these suspicious sightings people are posting on social media or at least be less dismissive of them. Places like Twitter and Facebook are where the battlegrounds are being drawn and ignoring that is just going to be a repeat. I can't do another 4 years of Trump I just can't.

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You have nothing to be afraid of. The amount of turnout we are seeing is obvious evidence that Joe Biden is going to be fine.

Look the country by and large is going to vote the same way they did in 2016 because most states are either Red or Blue and they don't change.

The states you want to look at are PA, MI, WI, FL, and AZ.

Joe Biden is absolutely winning PA and MI. We don't have to worry about those this time around.

Joe Biden *may* even win FL.

It's all going to come down to WI and if we can flip AZ. And since McSally has spent so much money on ads tying Mark Kelly to Bernie Sanders, he should be able to ride Biden's coattails to an easy win over her, giving us another Senate seat and maybe even flipping the state to us for the Presidency.

WI I honestly don't know about. The place is a mess. It's going to be a nail biter.

But the fact of the matter is when you look at the handful of states that are in play to determine the Presidency, Joe Biden is the better candidate for them and he's also the better candidate for our chances of retaking the Senate.

 

[Zelas]

I wonder how much of the Biden votes were driven by:

• People buying into the bullshit "both sides are extreme" narrative. As if championing healthcare for all is some radical, unhinged idea...
• Viewing Biden as a 'safe' lowest common denominator, cookie cutter choice that can beat Trump

As opposed to being a rejection of the ideas Bernie was pushing.

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We've had consistent polling for over a year showing that voters didnt care much for banning private insurance. And for over a year Sanders and his surrogates repeated the same talking points each time that concern was brought up. Voters are not to blame.

 

[RDreamer]

I know what those concepts are, thank you. I'm expressing these fears because I'm afraid the DNC (and a lot of people here) are treking straight into 2016 mindsets and ignoring/dismissing the Sanders base. The ones who stayed at home last time and could very easily consider doing the same this time as well. They stayed home because they felt the DNC is pushing their thumb on the scale and many post information like this and feel the same is happening again. If we don't at least acknowledge the possibility that the DNC is pushing Biden hard and just dismiss the young people as simply "Oh they don't vote so who gives a fuck" will likely cause them to do just that.

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You do realize that Clinton and the democrats didn't just dismiss Sanders and his base in 2016 right? He had a hand in moving the party platform leftward and Clinton adopted at least a few policies from him when she literally did not have to.

I don't know how anyone could watch this primary and think the DNC put their thumb on the scale for Biden. Donors and the party largely left him to fucking whither and die before South Carolina voted so definitively. If they wanted to push him they could have done that but they didn't. You got a few stupid panic articles from the press with some salacious quotes but largely they didn't do anything.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

I know what those concepts are, thank you. I'm expressing these fears because I'm afraid the DNC (and a lot of people here) are treking straight into 2016 mindsets and ignoring/dismissing the Sanders base. The ones who stayed at home last time and could very easily consider doing the same this time as well. They stayed home because they felt the DNC is pushing their thumb on the scale and many post information like this and feel the same is happening again. If we don't at least acknowledge the possibility that the DNC is pushing Biden hard and just dismiss the young people as simply "Oh they don't vote so who gives a fuck" will likely cause them to do just that.

Sorry I know that wasn't the original topic of discussion, I've strayed a bit. I'm just legit afraid we're repeating the mistakes of 4 years ago and simply dismissing things as "Well they just didn't like Hilary" and then clapping our hands together as if we've done enough and it's in the bag. We need to acknowledge these suspicious sightings people are posting on social media or at least be less dismissive of them. Places like Twitter and Facebook are where the battlegrounds are being drawn and ignoring that is just going to be a repeat. I can't do another 4 years of Trump I just can't.

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If you don't vote, your voice doesn't matter in politics. That's not me saying that. That's literally how the system works.

Second, voter suppression doesn't even make sense in this context. Biden doesn't even care that much about winning Michigan, North Dakota, or Washington. If he loses by 0-5%, his 60+ point wins in all the other states will still carry him across the finish line. Unless you think voter suppression is keeping Sanders at <15% in Mississippi?

 

[King Metal Zel]

Places like Twitter and Facebook matter less than you are implying... but they aren't immaterial. Even if only 10% of voters primarily get their news from Twitter that's a rather large chunk.

However, social media is replete with manipulation and out of context anger. If we treat them as the primary battleground for information we're going to lose because the left is really bad at Twitter and Facebook and just as prone to spread fake news.

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I just can't help but think if the 10% above you're mentioning had voted last time, we might have won rather than this bloody nightmare. We can't afford to dismiss them, we don't have enough votes. That's what I learned 4 years ago. 4 years ago I was equally dismissive of this kind of stuff. But now, now I'm seeing the same mistakes repeated on our side, the same attitude toward the young and very passionate people (including myself though I will vote blue no matter what) who aren't so much upset at Sanders losing so much as they feel like everyone's against them. That's not a good attitude to take I think. :(

 

[OmniOne]

I am having a hard time following the logical leap folks are making about Sanders being a good G.E. candidate and that we would lose with Biden. Sanders is getting pummeled. He is losing WWC voters he won 4 years ago. His campaign choices are dodgy at best. The swing in white male voters to Biden is quite something. Sanders massively benefitted from being "Not Hillary" in 2016 and thought he had a revolution.

 

[thecouncil]

i cant believe the Pennsylvania primary is still 7 weeks away. lol.
I didn't really have a chance to be part of the conversation!

 

[Flex1212]

ByeDon2020

 

[YamchasRevenge]

95% of Democrats love Obama, and twitter would make you think the guy is satan. Social media means jack shit. If it did, Biden would be faring worse than Tulsi.

 

[DickGrayson]

I just can't help but think if the 10% above you're mentioning had voted last time, we might have won rather than this bloody nightmare. We can't afford to dismiss them, we don't have enough votes. That's what I learned 4 years ago. 4 years ago I was equally dismissive of this kind of stuff. But now, now I'm seeing the same mistakes repeated on our side, the same attitude toward the young and very passionate people (including myself though I will vote blue no matter what) who aren't so much upset at Sanders losing so much as they feel like everyone's against them. That's not a good attitude to take I think. :(

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Take a second and think about how Clinton lost in 2016. By the grace of barely 100k votes goes Trump, and so far we've seen Primary turnout in many some individual states that vastly surpass that thin margin of victory. What we should have learned 4 years ago (what I've been saying for 4 years) is that the electorate in many states isn't ready to elect a controversial woman, largely because of sexism. If you give uneducated white people the choice between a bombastic fascist with a penis and a uncharismatic lifelong politician who has boobs, they will vote for the man every time. This time around we are giving them a bumbling old man who has more charm in his pinkie nail than Trump has in his entire closet full of sexual assault allegations.

Note, however, to assuage your fears, that Biden is already reaching out to Bernie and his voters in glowing words. I'm sure he will continue to do so and continue to build his swelling coalition.

Twitteratti railing against the status-quo of Biden will certainly have almost 0 effect on the eventual final vote.

 

[viskod]

95% of Democrats love Obama, and twitter would make you think the guy is satan. Social media means jack shit. If it did, Biden would be faring worse than Tulsi.

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God just thinking about seeing campaign Obama, even if he's campaigning for someone else and I know we can't have him back again, almost brings a tear to my eye.

 

[King Metal Zel]

Take a second and think about how Clinton lost in 2016. By the grace of barely 100k votes goes Trump, and so far we've seen Primary turnout in many some individual states that vastly surpass that thin margin of victory. What we should have learned 4 years ago (what I've been saying for 4 years) is that the electorate in many states isn't ready to elect a controversial woman, largely because of sexism.

Note, however, to assuage your fears, that Biden is already reaching out to Bernie and his voters in glowing words. I'm sure he will continue to do so and continue to build his swelling coalition.

Twitteratti railing against the status-quo of Biden will certainly have almost 0 effect on the eventual final vote.

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I pray your right. The stress of the last 4 years has been giving me legit physical issues. :(

 

[SolarPowered]

except once they enter the workforce and have to pay taxes/mortgage/child support etc, all of a sudden they aren't so lefty..

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I remember when the same was said about millenials and we're more to the left than even the reasonable gen x after a decade and a half. Gen Z is even more diverse. The trend is not looking good for the GOP. Why else are they packing the courts with far right lunatics and purging hundreds of thousands of voters of color? They know something you don't and it's that the future thinks left is best.

 

[Mona]

i cant believe the Pennsylvania primary is still 7 weeks away. lol.
I didn't really have a chance to be part of the conversation!

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vote warren in 2 months

 

[Phantom]

It should be illegal to run for POTUS after a certain age. How can you feel the president is in touch with you if he's 2-3 generations apart? Also at 78 you can die from basically any illness out of the blue. Heck, even Sanders almost died during his campaign. Why is it still a thing? How is it acceptable?

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Jesus christ even the head of the Data for Progress progressive think tank said that Biden's climate change plans were "ambitious". So many of you need to pull your heads out of the goddamn sand.

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It doesn't matter how ambitious a plan is if it doesn't get us to where we need to be climate change wise.

You don't "compromise" with an Earth that is already killing people globally from Climate Change because we refuse to change. You do what needs to be done or you fucking lose. Those are your two options. With Biden as the presumptive nominee and possibly our next President, we have to organize bigger protests and civil disobedience against him until he and his congress start capitulating to significantly more necessary changes.

Until we actually see massive movement in regards to the climate crisis, "Climate Optimism" is more or less just a nice way to present yourself while being a "Climate Denier." Technology isn't magically going to fix everything when the technology we need doesn't exist in viable forms yet and probably won't in time, the goals set by the Paris Climate Accords are agreed to be too far out to make the impact they need to make, and climate change is very much fucking over vulnerable populations everywhere. There is no compromise on this issue. You fix it now with the tools we have globally, or we as the collective human race lose this fight. And when clean drinking water starts to get scarce and supply lines start falling, Eco-fascist capitalism is almost certainly going to be the solution presented.

We'll take Biden because it seems like he's the best we can do, but once he's in office, he and every elected Democratic official need to do a lot fucking better and we have to make that happen in whatever capacity we can.

 

[Deleted member 198]

Something I find really interesting is that looking at the 2016 primary results, Sanders electorate has largely not changed at all vote wise, while Biden is bringing in about 300k+ more votes than Clinton did. Even with the expanded and more empowered voter base (unless there's 100k+ absentee ballots to still be counted), Sanders has really failed to grow his audience.

On the other end though, twice as many Democrats showed up yesterday compared to Republicans, which is awesome.

Lots of first time voters too, which is always nice.

 

[Vestal]

I wonder how much of the Biden votes were driven by:

• People buying into the bullshit "both sides are extreme" narrative. As if championing healthcare for all is some radical, unhinged idea...
• Viewing Biden as a 'safe' lowest common denominator, cookie cutter choice that can beat Trump

As opposed to being a rejection of the ideas Bernie was pushing.

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The problem is the messenger. Bernie simply doesn't connect and he is not running against Hillary.

 

[TwoDelay]

It should be illegal to run for POTUS after a certain age. How can you feel the president is in touch with you if he's 2-3 generations apart? Also at 78 you can die from basically any illness out of the blue. Heck, even Sanders almost died during his campaign. Why is it still a thing? How is it acceptable?

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There shouldn't be an age limit, should even scrap the 35 minimum.

 

[N64Controller]

I just hope the US can get itself out of this loop one day and actually take their country and offer to its citizens the rights they are owed. Seeing people stan for Biden unironically is very sad.

Hoping the next generation of progressives can actually get through and actually change your country. You have bright stars, elect them. My heart was broken by Jessica Cisneros defeat to shithead Henry Cuellar, a defeat brought to you by status-quo advocate Nancy Pelosi.

I get the rationale of beating Trump being the priority, lots of people are suffering because of him and his administration. I just hope it actually leads to something. And with a president like Joe Biden, you can't expect anything to change in the long run. He said it himself, nothing will fundamentally change.

 

[DickGrayson]

I pray your right. The stress of the last 4 years has been giving me legit physical issues. :(

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Don't let fear cloud your reason (or give you an ulcer), it's far from a certain thing that Biden will beat Trump but he has a really good shot as long as he continues to talk his big tent politics with a craft services table for Progressives inside the tent.

 

[gozu]

I'm afraid [the ones in the] Sanders base who stayed at home last time and could very easily consider doing the same this time because they felt the DNC is pushing their thumb on the scale and many post information like this and feel the same is happening again.

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If you repost baseless accusations, even with the intention of 'acknowledging the possibility of <thing>', you unfortunately worsen the problem, whether you intend to or not. it has been proven.

If we just dismiss the young people as simply "Oh they don't vote so who gives a fuck" will likely cause them to do just that.

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Again, there is no solid evidence to support the claims that:

A- Youth turnout is not low

B- Saying the contrary will have a negative impact on it


It really appears that young people suck at voting. Partly, it's a cultural thing (Look at Denmark) but numbers definitely indicate young people are worse at gauging long term consequences of their voting record; Likely because they haven't experienced them firsthand. Look at every single country in this chart, older voters always win:

I'm just legit afraid

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Fear is the mind killer. We're all afraid but we must think and act coolly nonetheless.

I can't do another 4 years of Trump I just can't.

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Yes you can and you must fight for the 2022 congress if it comes to that. Life is struggle, I'm sorry to say.

8 years of Trump are nothing, NOTHING, compared to what hundreds of ERA members are going through right now politically. :(

 

[Otakukidd]

Is there any turnout numbers for last night yet?

 

[RDreamer]

It should be illegal to run for POTUS after a certain age. How can you feel the president is in touch with you if he's 2-3 generations apart? Also at 78 you can die from basically any illness out of the blue. Heck, even Sanders almost died during his campaign. Why is it still a thing? How is it acceptable?

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He's not 2-3 generations apart from the people who actually go out and vote in large numbers. I certainly don't like it but that's where we're at.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

We've had consistent polling for over a year showing that voters didnt care much for banning private insurance. And for over a year Sanders and his surrogates repeated the same talking points each time that concern was brought up. Voters are not to blame.

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Polling Democrats across all 17 primaries thus far has shown that the majority in each state supports replacing private insurance with a government run program. The issue hasn't been the lack of enthusiasm for M4A.