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fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
6,817
Republicans don't believe in climate change so there's no bipartisan anything with them.

40% of them do, according to a Pew poll last year.

Like I said, there's going to be a good 30% of the country that is going to hate anything because it's not enough, or it's too much. But making it a partisan issue with a really partisan bill (that even Dem moderates can't stomach) isn't a winner formula for actually getting anything done, and popular consensus is how we get things moving forward.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
Increasing the price of "dirty" technology without first making green alternatives cheaper is just disproportionatily hurting the poor.

But the majority of emissions come from companies directly, not consumers (directly... we can argue their consumption is the indirect cause).
Carbon taxes should absolutely be on oil companies, and it should ramp up extremely as gasoline prices go up, so they can't just pass the cost onto consumers. Other large emitters should get hit hard too.
 

Africanus II

Member
Oct 26, 2017
403
Can't lie, it's sad to see Sanders didn't immediately start in the black South with his grassroots campaign, and then move North/Westward, slowly building a nationwide coalition.

He seems to have tapped into something correct with his gains amongst Latinos & Muslim demographics (not to erase Afro-latinx and black Muslim folks) but dropped the ball.
I hope the successor to the leftist throne taps into what he had, because 30% is a great foundation for the future assuming (obvs) the base stays relatively the same.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
40% of them do, according to a Pew poll last year.

Like I said, there's going to be a good 30% of the country that is going to hate anything because it's not enough, or it's too much. But making it a partisan issue with a really partisan bill (that even Dem moderates can't stomach) isn't a winner formula for actually getting anything done, and popular consensus is how we get things moving forward.
Parse it. Of that 40%, how many believe humans are not a huge cause? Of that 40% how many believe that it's not a big deal? Making this bipartisan is pointless, especially considering currently elected republicans.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,274
the Violence Against Women Act, which was included in the bill in question, seems at least like a dose of "for the greater good" to me

Bernie voted against other tough on crime bills, was a voice against tough on crime politics, and viewed the 1994 as a compromise he could begrudgingly accept

dunno, boil it down to the vote if you'd like, but pretending like his record is equivalent to Biden's seems ridiculous to me
My mistake. I wasn't following the conversation. Biden is far worse than Bernie in this area. I voted for Bernie this morning for that reason. I'm still not a fan of the greater good argument as an excuse for the evil that was the crime bill (or the other tough on crime legislation he supported).
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,958
This is so idiotic. Can't believe how blindly tribal some people are.

It's always clear to me who worked on political campaigns or get out the vote efforts before. This is how the vast majority of voters think, be it Dem or Republican. The major key is driving out the base, while also not alienating new voters.

People have their worldviews, and vote consistent with said views. Or rather, they vote for the leading party candidate, or the one they know best. Yeah, it's "tribal," but it's also just basic human nature.
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,561
My point kinda is that if Bernie voting for the crime bill is not as bad as writing it, then him voting for the violence against women act is not as good as writing it. That, on this particular episode, there isn't a "winner" by any stretch.

it's not just that Bernie voting for the crime bill is not as bad as writing it; it's that a holistic look at his record, his positions, what he stood up for holds up much better than a similar examination of Biden on this subject

additionally, voting for the Violence Against Women Act isn't even something I'm giving Bernie credit for, that was just a silver lining in the horrible package Biden played a singular role in putting together

this calculation you're making where the Violence Against Women Act and the overall 1994 Crime Bill somehow cancel each other out generally seems off to me
 

fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
6,817
how are market based solutions going to solve anything when when fossil fuel extraction is still foundational to the global economy?

the market has to be brought to heel if we're going to survive

See, the problem is that the market isn't actually working, and the cost of pollution isn't being paid by the polluters. Tax the carbon, remove the externality so that consuming fossil fuels has a real cost, then dividend back the money to consumers so they can make the choices and prefer things that have smaller carbon footprints.

Like, that's just one way of doing it. I don't think the goal should be to stop fossil fuel extraction and usage as much as it should be to reduce the amount of greenhouse gases we produce (clean energy vs. carbon-neutral). You want fossil fuel usage to be a tactical thing (such as natural gas w/ CC&S for base loads) vs. getting rid of usage entirely.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
it's not just that Bernie voting for the crime bill is not as bad as writing it; it's that a holistic look at his record, his positions, what he stood up for holds up much better than a similar examination of Biden on this subject

additionally, voting for the Violence Against Women Act isn't even something I'm giving Bernie credit for, that was just a silver lining in the horrible package Biden played a singular role in putting together

this calculation you're making where the Violence Against Women Act and the overall 1994 Crime Bill somehow cancel each other out generally seems off to me
I don't think they cancel each other out, I think they're a net negative, but in a comparison between the two candidates on that one particular act it cancels each other out. Bringing other parts of record into it, Biden is obviously worse.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
CNN is once again doing comparison's between Biden and Bernie getting 60% of the vote so that Bernie can eek out a lead and they get to continue to say "Horse race!" like it's equally likely.
This is incredibly defeatist.
It's defeatist to not believe your eyes and continue to do the same thing expecting different results.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,044
Seattle
Other questions look better for Bernie (or you would think). I suspect election day voting has Biden up 5-10 but IIRC a poll last week had Biden winning big with Michigan early voters.

The question about M4A major support, followed up by what's more important beating trump/or share your values makes it seem that large majority want M4A, but willing to vote to take out Trump, makes it seem positive for Biden and matches polling (in favor of M4A, but voting Biden to beat trump)
 

RailWays

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,667
Can't lie, it's sad to see Sanders didn't immediately start in the black South with his grassroots campaign, and then move North/Westward, slowly building a nationwide coalition.

He seems to have tapped into something correct with his gains amongst Latinos & Muslim demographics (not to erase Afro-latinx and black Muslim folks) but dropped the ball.
I hope the successor to the leftist throne taps into what he had, because 30% is a great foundation for the future assuming (obvs) the base stays relatively the same.
It's depressing because they definitely seemed to be having a better grassroots game going this primary, but it looks like they were lacking in outreach to local politicians, at least in some southern states.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
It's defeatist to not believe your eyes and continue to do the same thing expecting different results.

I'd say it's more defeatist to just go "that's life!" and act like nothing has a possibility of changing, but that's just me I suppose. It's easier for some to feel that way.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
You can't believe that human beings are communal creatures that value social connections?

I would hope people would be smarter about politics than your average console warrior. Politicians, like corporations, are not your friends.

Thankfully this trend is mostly prominent with the older generations. So hopefully it will die out over time.


The thing you're missing is that it's not just a label.

Except that's exactly what it is.

Sanders is a Democrat in all but name. He votes with them consistently and helps them fundraise. For someone to look at a candidate like that and think "I mostly agree with this person, but they didn't run as my party for senate so I won't vote for them as president" is allowing perfect to be the enemy of good.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
This is so idiotic. Can't believe how blindly tribal some people are.
poodlestrike referenced the relevant twitter thread on this but imagine that your whole life every person of authority you've ever known is a Democrat, every meaningfully positive change in your life has come from Democrats, and you've been dutifully casting your ballot for the Democrats every 2-4 years even if you're in a deep red state and know on some level your vote doesn't really matter, but you just gotta keep your head up and keep trying anyway.

And then this guy from up in Vermont hits the scene like "yeah the Democrats ain't shit, I'm the only one who can bring about change, anyway I could have tried getting Jim Clyburn's endorsement but fuck that guy, anyone who doesn't already agree with me 100% is crooked, did I mention I have Joe Rogan's support? Anyway check me out I'm doing a town hall on Fox News tonight, and then I'm skipping out on the Bloody Sunday memorial to pursue my stupid strategy of running up the score in the most liberal state in the country so I can overrule the will of the majority elsewhere, P.S. Obama did a bad job in Mississippi and only I can flip it, but if I lose there it's because it's a red state"

Like look, I'm not saying that's going to be a shared experience or perception, but a lot of people do internalize the Democratic label as a part of their identity, and the people who do so are likelier to vote in Democratic primaries. If Bernie is jockeying for the Democratic nomination he should probably try winning those people instead of counting on a surge of unaffiliated, young voters (the least reliable demographic to turn out) to carry him across the finish line. Especially since in this instance all he has to do is pick up the label. If it's so unimportant, why can't he just do it, then?
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I'd say it's more defeatist to just go "that's life!" and act like nothing has a possibility of changing, but that's just me I suppose. It's easier for some to feel that way.
I'm talking about how you go about achieving something, not what you're aiming to achieve.

MSNBC jsut announced no live audience at the next debate

How do they do a town hall style debate with no audience?
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,081
Arkansas, USA
There actually is a bipartisan climate deal - it's called the Energy Innovation and Carbon Divided Act. If you want to help push it join the Citizens Climate Lobby:

citizensclimatelobby.org

Citizens' Climate Lobby | A Climate Change Organization

Our supporters cover the political spectrum and work in 500+ local chapters. Together, we’re building support for a national bipartisan solution to climate change.

Don't waste your time with organizations like the Sunrise Movement.
 

nexus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,645
Not sure if this is new or not but they posted in the NYT chat that the next debate won't have an audience. Be nice if they were all like that.
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
If you think nuclear power can't help fight climate change and in a big way, you aren't getting that from believing the science.

I say that as someone who greatly prefers Bernie over Biden.

Massive expansion of nuclear would help greatly, but America is a very irresponsible country, which can't even commit to a modest barely do anything climate plan, you expect them to safely storing the waste for millennia?
 
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