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corn93

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
158
User Banned (1 week): Trolling
Wait how is it dishonest? Pretty much all older people decline. I can post interviews from as little as four years ago and it's like night and day listening to him. It's all about how we talk about it.

Dude it is completely normal to confuse your wife and sister. To forget where you are. To forget which office you are running for. To replace words with generics like "thing", and to be a completely less capable speaker than you were four years prior.

There is no cognitive decline in Ba Sing Se.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
BIDEN WROTE THE FUCKING CRIME BILL
And Bernie voted for it.

Anyway, one interesting stat from several state exit polls, most people are saying they're either holding steady or getting ahead. When only 11% of people say they're economically falling behind, it's really, really hard to sell a revolution.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,035
And Bernie voted for it.

Anyway, one interesting stat from several state exit polls, most people are saying they're either holding steady or getting ahead. When only 11% of people say they're economically falling behind, it's really, really hard to sell a revolution.

Hmm, maybe if the economy had imploded just a year earlier, Bernie might've had a better shot.
 

Jon Carter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,746
Biden telling a woman staffer to "shush" is pretty disgusting. That's not how you talk to people you're working with.

Yeah, it's weird how everyone is focused on how good or bad telling a voter who's full of shit that he's indeed full of shit is, rather than the "Shush. Shush." at a woman from his campaign. The former is fine and arguably makes him look good, the latter is not and definitely makes him look bad.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,099
THIS IS ABOUT THE FATE OF THE WORLD! FUCK!

It is about the best probability of saving ourselves.

If Biden wins the Presidency, his actions, his words, his motives, his supporters...will increase the odds of creating the same conditions that lead to somebody like Trump taking advantage of. Add in climate change and Americans dying due to our healthcare, we are running out of time.

The Status Quo is what enabled right-wing populism to slip into the White House. We can not let that happen again. Fucking. Ever.
The Status Quo or how things use to be is more important to the Boomers than anything else
 

corn93

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
158
And Bernie voted for it.

Anyway, one interesting stat from several state exit polls, most people are saying they're either holding steady or getting ahead. When only 11% of people say they're economically falling behind, it's really, really hard to sell a revolution.

Honestly if only 11% are falling behind should I vote for someone besides Trump? He seems to be doing fine based off that.

It isn't like Biden is going to do anything meaningful to stop climate change. He's against GND initiatives.
 

hurlex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,143
Bernie's platform is unquestionably more concerned with improving the lives of minorities, and yet people do not believe him (or don't believe that he can deliver)! Not only did this tube Bernie's campaign, it will tube the next progressive as well if that person does not adjust his or her strategy.

Someone posted a tweet thread on their experiences being a minority in the South. Basically a lot of minorities are active in the Democratic party and depend on them. By constantly going against 'the Establishment,' Bernie was essentially attacking the only people who helped them. Obviously Democrats could always do better, but it doesn't play well to attack the few groups that help them out.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
Honestly if only 11% are falling behind should I vote for someone besides Trump? He seems to be doing fine based off that.

It isn't like Biden is going to do anything meaningful to stop climate change. He's against GND initiatives.
Biden has a very good climate plan on his website. The Green New Deal is not the only way to tackle the climate crisis.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,360
Dude it is completely normal to confuse your wife and sister. To forget where you are. To forget which office you are running for. To replace words with generics like "thing", and to be a completely less capable speaker than you were four years prior.

There is no cognitive decline in Ba Sing Se.


This is incredibly dishonest. Parroting talking points that have already been refuted like the wife/sister thing and others that have been explained as the way people with stutters mitigate them. All this energy on something hurtful to people with mental health issues and is now being shown to not even be an effective line of attack, when people could be calling him out for his actual policies like desire to increase defense spending and his lie about Mandela.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,819
Honestly if only 11% are falling behind should I vote for someone besides Trump? He seems to be doing fine based off that.

It isn't like Biden is going to do anything meaningful to stop climate change. He's against GND initiatives.
So fuck all the women and minorities being screwed over by the Supreme Court? That's what matters.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
We can play the posting interviews game all day. There are interviews of him now where he's just as calm and collected as ever. There are articles from 2010 about the Obama administration trying to mitigate his gaffes. The point is that no one knows his mental state because they haven't spent time with him, they haven't examined him and they're in no position to diagnose him. A bunch of clips edited together to make him look worse is not evidence of anything except for those flubs.

I'm not talking about diagnosing anything. I'm not in a position to call him demented. If this is your position fine, but I disagree with it and I disagree with the idea that such claims are disingenuous by their very nature.

Dude it is completely normal to confuse your wife and sister. To forget where you are. To forget which office you are running for. To replace words with generics like "thing", and to be a completely less capable speaker than you were four years prior.

There is no cognitive decline in Ba Sing Se.

I assume this is sarcastic.
 

corn93

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
158
Biden has a very good climate plan on his website. The Green New Deal is not the only way to tackle the climate crisis.

His plan is only good if you ignore what climate scientists are saying. We need extreme measures by this point.

" Ensure the U.S. achieves a 100% clean energy economy and reaches net-zero emissions no later than 2050. "

You think that's fine? Might as well be a denialist. 2050 is too late. The science is clear.
 

SolarPowered

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,211
Warren does far worse with the black community. Sanders was able to get pretty much every single minority group in his coalition but not even that was enough to attract the older black demographic to switch camps. She would had done far worse against Biden, one on one.
Yeah, I don't know why people repeating it. She was the smartest person to run for president in this primary and she definitely raised a lot of money, but her coalition simply wasn't as broad as Bernie's even at her best. It's unfortunate, but that is the reality.
 

RailWays

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,668
I'm gonna leave this thread. This is pure unadulterated bullshit and I'm going to get banned. The only thing I'll say is, if you compare and contrast Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders on race, and this is what you end up with, you're not being honest with yourself.
You're not wrong that his policy was miles better. I believed and voted for Bernie as a reflection to that. I am curious as to why his message wasn't widely believed or trusted to happen by the base, however. Hopefully we can get these kind of answers out of the postmortems. And yes, obviously media contributed, but I feel laying the blame entirely at their feet would be a lack of introspection, and detrimental to future campaigns. Did they not connect with key communities and/or politicians in states? Was there a failure in their messaging approach with certain demographics? How could they have improved this? These are the questions progressives need answered so we can run an even stronger campaign in the future.

Still hoping for the best out of tonight's results.
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,562
And Bernie voted for it.

Anyway, one interesting stat from several state exit polls, most people are saying they're either holding steady or getting ahead. When only 11% of people say they're economically falling behind, it's really, really hard to sell a revolution.

this article covers pretty well why I'm far more comfortable with Bernie's relationship to the crime bill, and tough on crime politics generally, than I am with Biden's: https://www.vox.com/2016/2/26/11116412/bernie-sanders-mass-incarceration

 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,360
Yeah, I don't know why people repeating it. She was the smartest person to run for president in this primary and she definitely raised a lot of money, but her coalition simply wasn't as broad as Bernie's even at her best. It's unfortunate, but that is the reality.


As a Warren supporter I agree with this. Someone said it before, but she was great at getting endorsements from activists, but not so great at getting the rank and file.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,035
I'm gonna leave this thread. This is pure unadulterated bullshit and I'm going to get banned. The only thing I'll say is, if you compare and contrast Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders on race, and this is what you end up with, you're not being honest with yourself.

So basically, Low information voters.

Stay classy.
 

hurlex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,143
Honestly if only 11% are falling behind should I vote for someone besides Trump? He seems to be doing fine based off that.

It isn't like Biden is going to do anything meaningful to stop climate change. He's against GND initiatives.

Biden is proposing $1.7 trillion in finding to attack climate change. Trump is making us go backwards. Biden isn't as good as Bernie, but equating Biden to Trump isn't fair.
 

Byakuya769

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,718
It's hilarious that cognitive decline was cool when it was helping the mission for 30%, now it's a grave concern.

I do think it's silly to pretend that it's ridiculous or unfair to note that he's lost a step (or several), however. All his debates have been a mess.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
this article covers pretty well why I'm far more comfortable with Bernie's relationship to the crime bill, and tough on crime politics generally, than I am with Biden's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=LTn3jUoMdVI&feature=emb_title


I definitely respect your position. I'm a well off white dude (although I am gay.) So I have my thoughts on the crime bill, but they don't reflect different communities. So I wouldn't speak to how anyone should feel about Bernie/Biden's stances on it.
 

corn93

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
158
Biden is proposing $1.7 trillion in finding to attack climate change. Trump is making us go backwards. Biden isn't as good as Bernie, but equating Biden to Trump isn't fair.

That isn't what the science argues though. Not as good as Bernie isn't good enough to meaningfully limit the effects of climate change.

Hyperbole serves no one.

Hyperbole? The science is clear. We don't have time to wait for 2050.
 

alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,418
Using black people's voting preferences as a "more racist to less racist" measuring stick is insanely flawed, and I wish we'd do less of that.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
Biden himself is also pro-life. He's said as much. Why on earth should I trust him to pick a justice that is pro-choice?
: sigh :
He is not pro-life in the sense you're claiming. He is pro-life in that his religion informs his beliefs, but he does not believe he has the right to legislate those beliefs. This is actually a belief a lot of folks have, and he has said he would not appoint any judges who were not pro-choice. Also, the party pretty much picks the judicial nominees anyway.
 

RussTC3

Banned
Nov 28, 2018
1,878
Looks like Biden should be able to knock Sanders out tonight. Unlike last time for Sanders (and Clinton in 2008) it doesn't appear as if voters will allow him to stick around like he did last time.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,429
Richmond, VA
You're not wrong that his policy was miles better. I believed and voted for Bernie as a reflection to that. I am curious as to why his message wasn't widely believed or trusted to happen by the base, however. Hopefully we can get these kind of answers out of the postmortems. And yes, obviously media contributed, but I feel laying the blame entirely at their feet would be a lack of introspection, and detrimental to future campaigns.

Still hoping for the best out of tonight's results.

The majority of the electorate are being pragmatic. Even those who think M4A is a good idea don't think it's possible. Not now.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
And Bernie voted for it.

Anyway, one interesting stat from several state exit polls, most people are saying they're either holding steady or getting ahead. When only 11% of people say they're economically falling behind, it's really, really hard to sell a revolution.
And in 1994 57% of nonwhite voters backed it, compared to 49% of white voters. https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/04/who-supported-1994-crime-bill/

The context of the bill is directly related the the violent crime issues that only subsided in the '00s as the first post-deleaded gas generation hit maturity in the US. Older generations are going to remember the desperation present at the time that led to that polling result, while kids born later than the mid-80s likely have little to no memory of a world where violent crime wasn't making a fast retreat.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
I forgot all the minorities Biden helped with his crime bill he wrote.

Biden himself is also pro-life. He's said as much. Why on earth should I trust him to pick a justice that is pro-choice?
"I don't believe in this thing for myself but it's not right to limit the choice of others" is actually a very mature position to have.

The idea that Biden would appoint anti-choice judges is completely baseless.
 

hurlex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,143
That isn't what the science argues though. Not as good as Bernie isn't good enough to meaningfully limit the effects of climate change.

So you think it's better to do nothing? I'm not sure what you wrote supports your original post that said Biden and Trump are the same on climate change.
 

RussTC3

Banned
Nov 28, 2018
1,878
Honestly if only 11% are falling behind should I vote for someone besides Trump? He seems to be doing fine based off that.

It isn't like Biden is going to do anything meaningful to stop climate change. He's against GND initiatives.
The strength of the economy is based off the shoring up that the Obama administration did. That's at least how I look at it.

Trump and his administration is incompetent. I give them zero credit because they all suck at their jobs.
 
OP
OP
Poodlestrike

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,491
How can one get over that hurdle? Like, I can totally get the idea of supporting Biden because the white moderate, problematic as they genuinely are, will likely not run for the hills when compared to Sanders, but how does one bypass the obstacle that if those numbers are not based on building coalitions and just on the policy front, many people are saying they support the candidate who is more likely to be a source of their problems than the other candidate?

Like if those results are not based on a coalition but on the candidate exclusively, most people are wrong. They're supporting the candidate who has policies that are worse for them! How do you surpass what looks like a kind of political battered wife syndrome? I think that's going to be the obstacle, because tribalism, the idea of the ""Democratic establishment"" is going to be a pillow to protect people who have history of terrible policy in the face of someone who has the courage to call that out. That seems like something people are going to fail at surpassing, and not just exclusively a Sanders failure.
So, I think this is kind of a misread of the argument. I would say that Bernie's failure is a failure of coalition building. That's where the lack of trust comes from. It's not so much about him as a person, because voters don't know him as a person. Most of them met him 4 years ago. But they can tell that he's not reaching out to people they do trust, and that he's actually kinda tearing a lot of them down. There was this great twitter thread that actually got posted here as a pro-Bernie talking point but I thought was really on point for why Bernie struggled so much with older black voters. To them, the Democratic party wasn't white dudes from up north, it was their neighbors, their teachers, their family. People they knew, who were also Democrats. People that the Bernie campaign did not a great job of reaching out to. That's what's got to change.

It's also why I think AOC is going to continue to be a freaking rockstar because she really does seem to get that. She's got the policy, but she's also just an incredibly effective political agent who truly gets how you play the game (and I mean that as an enormous compliment). I'd be thrilled to back her in 2024, open primary or no, if that's what she decides to do (tho I'd prefer she take Chuck Schumer's seat first).
it definitely can be used as a partisan attack against him, as Biden has demonstrated, but yeah, Bernie is more pragmatic than some give him credit for

like, even his position on Medicare for All is less about ideological rigidity and more about a basic understanding of how compromise actually tends to work
Yeah. He's a better politician than his campaign messaging is really giving him credit for. It's weird, and frustrating. There was a great Vox piece about the "Bernieworld" reaction to SC and Super Tuesday and I think it brought up something that I don't see a lot, the internal divisions in the campaign. You've got the more coalition-building faction that was responsible for stuff like the "king of amendments" line and the Obama ad, and the more factional one that unfortunately seems to be running the show most of the time.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Biden has a very good climate plan on his website. The Green New Deal is not the only way to tackle the climate crisis.

There have been multiple recent claims that we have until about 2030 to get out emissions down. Biden's plan doesn't get us to net zero until 2050.

We do not have time to wait for what will be convenient for the markets or jobs. We need to act as quickly as possible. Clean energy and more resilient infrastructure are great, but we needed them yesterday and we need a lot more today.
 

Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,201
Almost every state the early exits were older than what the final results were. Most younger people vote in the 5-8 or closer to when polls close
 

corn93

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
158
So you think it's better to do nothing? I'm not sure what you wrote supports your original post that said Biden and Trump are the same on climate change.

I think what the science says is that 2050 might as well be 2800 as far as combating climate change goes.

You may think it extreme, but immediate action is needed. A milquetoast bullshit plan slated to complete by 2050 is functionally the same as doing nothing. We're entering a positive feedback loop that half-measures cannot stop.

So no, it isn't better to do nothing. But don't piss on a fire and pretend like you're helping to put it out. You're not.
 
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