Democratic Presidential Primaries & Caucuses |March OT| Last Tuesday was 1000 years ago, old news no one cares about (Discussion Guidelines in OP)

[KHarvey16]

We might somehow walk away with the Senate, House, and Presidential position out of this election. If that happens, we need to have candidates and politicians that are actually wiling to fight as aggressively as humanly possible, and probably even a little further than that, against Climate Change. We're reminding people that getting out of the cave is step one in a much, much bigger and more important fight and that we just really will not have time once we regain some semblance of control for milquetoast positions. This just isn't a place we can try to compromise on or settle for incremental progress. Yes, step one is pull the regressive actions of Trump away from our country obviously, but there's not really any sensible moderate lane once we get past that point and it's also likely that to actually address those issues, the questions of traditional capitalist structure will need to be challenged.

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Yeah but we can't leave the cave. That's the hypothetical situation I'm using to make my point. It's not a matter of wanting it. We can't get out. Even with the senate, and the only real chance of that is with Biden as the nominee, the majority will not support everything Biden is proposing in his climate plan. It will be compromised into something that can pass and will end up in exactly the same place Bernie would end up if he were the president in the same situation.

We need to stop thinking that wanting things really badly is a way to overcome not being able to do them. It's not a lack of enthusiasm preventing progress, it's the republican and conservative portions of the American electorate who choose their representatives.

 

[Vic Damone Jr.]

I didn't say it happened in this primary, but that it's not as cut and dry an issue as we think. Just like with gerrymandering. It's most a red state phenomenon, but still sucks the few times it happens in blue states.

Really? I hadn't noticed, but I did check my registration a few weeks before election out of sheer anxiety due to 2016.

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I remember cause I worked the polls that year and funny shit was happening citywide. People in public housing ting notices that they needed to stay home for inspections or something as well.

 

[Deleted member 176]

Please read or at least address the rest of the post.

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You're splitting hairs between worst case scenarios. Again, neither is sufficient.

 

[KHarvey16]

people having issues with electoralism's ineffectiveness isn't scary, its just that when the system in place, electoralism, isn't sufficient to achieve the sort of quick change required for issues like climate change, people need to start making use of other means to force politicians into action.

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What "other means"?

 

[SolarPowered]

California's issue is more that they decided to implement some new changes at a time of large voter turnout and people worried that it might cause logistical issues on election day. I guess it did cause issues, but nowhere near as bad as Texas'. Ya'll should be happy. At least you guys have vote by mail, automatic voter registration and ranked choice vote in some cities. We're waaaaay behind in NY. I'm thirsting for ranked choice, early voting and mail in ballots. We got the early vote, but NY did it correctly by implementing it in a low turnout election. Testing this stuff on big elections like CA did can lead to issues...

I remember cause I worked the polls that year and funny shit was happening citywide. People in public housing ting notices that they needed to stay home for inspections or something as well.

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I remember something like that now that you mention it. Weird stuff happens in this city and sometimes I can't tell if it's the machine politics, incompetence, republicans or even the Russians lol.

 

[KHarvey16]

You're splitting hairs between worst case scenarios. Again, neither is sufficient.

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Better isn't good! I want to reach only for perfect and be left with worst!

 

[Tfritz]

There is no comparison.

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isn't sunrise movement the group that knocked symone sanders to the ground yesterday

 

[Deleted member 60096]

What "other means"?

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The fact that you need to ask that question and put such a simple statement into quotes really says alot about your opinion of the left

 

[Deleted member 176]

Better isn't good! I want to reach only for perfect and be left with worst!

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This is why non-American have an interest in phone banking for Bernie over Biden. Both Biden and Trump are worst of the available options. Biden is the worst for the primary for sure, you can't argue that.

 

[Vic Damone Jr.]

Bernie's policies are the ones that the US absolutely desperately need right now, and it's baffling me to no end to see what I'd qualify a very moderate center-left politician being labelled "too leftist" by US citizens. This is a direct result of decades and decades of American anti-communist & anti-socialist propaganda that worked very well in the end. In my country, Bernie would barely make any waves considering how boringly consensual most of his policies are.

This is honestly appalling to follow the US elections, and realizing how everything is just so goddamn utterly broken everywhere, and people fighting inanely so that things keep on staying broken. This is one of those times where I wish I could offer the entire US population a 6-months free stay in a European country in order to see the disparities and the cruelty of the system they're living under, to see how truly completely broken it is. A system that, thanks partly to the US' hegemony, is also spreading to the rest of the world like a disease, and that my own fellow citizens have to take the streets in order to fight against (y'all, BlackRock isn't a French company, yet here they are trying to privatize our pension system which never needed to be fix since it never was broken in the first place, and no, this isn't coincidental, this is partly a consequence of US' unhinged liberal capitalism).

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It's very frustrating.

 

[Deleted member 43]

Not replying to all of you christ, although this response is even more surprising. The 6-8 hour wait to vote disproportionately suppresses youth and minority votes. I couldn't take 6 hours off work to vote and neither could most. States demanding photo ID, the purging of votes due to typographical errors. I've read quite a lot of stories about this in the last week and it's not just Texas.

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All of those a problems created by the states who run the primaries. They decide on voting requirements and polling locations. The Democratic Party has nothing to do with them.

There was no DNC plot to suppress turnout. That would be the most self-defeating thing they could do.

 

[supra]

isn't sunrise movement the group that knocked symone sanders to the ground yesterday

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the org pete tried real hard to get the endorsement of, then called "dark money" when they didn't

 

[Poodlestrike]

You're splitting hairs between worst case scenarios. Again, neither is sufficient.

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No, I think they're pretty important, honestly. The degree of warming we hit matters a lot in terms of real world outcomes.

 

[thewienke]

Yeah but we can't leave the cave. That's the hypothetical situation I'm using to make my point. It's not a matter of wanting it. We can't get out. Even with the senate, and the only real chance of that is with Biden as the nominee, the majority will not support everything Biden is proposing in his climate plan. It will be compromised into something that can pass and will end up in exactly the same place Bernie would end up if he were the president in the same situation.

We need to stop thinking that wanting things really badly is a way to overcome not being able to do them. It's not a lack of enthusiasm preventing progress, it's the republican and conservative portions of the American electorate who choose their representatives.

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I think people forget that the New Democrat Coalition (Moderates and Third Way Democrats) is the largest bloc of Democrats in the House with 103 members.

Also the Blue Dog Coalition still exists with currently 25 members.

Democrats hold a 35 seat advantage in the House right now so if Bernie was president TODAY all it will take is 35 Democrats in the House to band together and halt any progressive legislation they deem to be too extreme. And it's likely that they would face zero repercussions because they come from Republican leaning districts.

When people say that there is virtually no difference between Biden or Bernie as President it's because of stuff like this. We haven't had the trifecta in a long, long time so we forgot how hard it is for the whole party to actually work together and get things done.

 

[Deleted member 176]

No, I think they're pretty important, honestly. The degree of warming we hit matters a lot in terms of real world outcomes.

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Even if you really want to hold onto climate optimism, Biden is still the worst available option right now for the primary. Maybe he won't be the worst in the general (I think he's still tied for worst with Trump), but he definitely is now. So I think it's fair for foreigners to be concerned with the outcome.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I wouldn't make that equivalency. Biden's plan isn't as good as Bernie's, but it's worlds better than Trump's. Mentioning them in the same breath like they're the same thing and would do the same harm just isn't... Like, accurate, before you get to everything else.

Remember those terrifying per 10th degree effect estimates? Works the other way, too. Every 10th of a degree of warming averted makes things so much less awful than they could be. It's important not to discount the differences, if only because it's so easy to work yourself up into a despair frency over things you have no control over.

Besides, I've seen some encouraging new research on the climate stuff recently. A way higher % of emissions than we thought were coming entirely out of the energy sector, and there's some really promising new carbon capture tech.

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The issue with Climate Change also comes down to the fact that we start hitting certain positive feedback loops we can't turn off and there's not really compromising with that. You either activate them or you don't, so like, the differences between plans kind of don't matter much if both have those same end results of activating said loops (some of which have already started unfortunately). I don't know the exact specifics on how much of a different Biden's plan would make versus other ones, but I know setting goals out as far as 2050 is definitely way too late since most scientists agree we have maybe 10 years at best to try to mitigate things away from wider catastrophe and have a chance at keeping things somewhat in tact.

We can't rely on hopeful technology that still doesn't exist and may not exist for several years to get us there, we have to go with what we have now as aggressively as humanly possible.

 

[Zombegoast]

Dem's "voting suppression" is suppressing progressive policies by the media and pundits.

Nobody ever ask how WE'RE going to pay for Biden's healthcare plan.

 

[jviggy43]

Dem's "voting suppression" is suppressing progressive policies by the media and pundits.

Nobody ever ask how WE'RE going to pay for Biden's healthcare plan.

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Nobody ever asks how were going to pay for anything unless its something thats going to help poor people out.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Even if you really want to hold onto climate optimism, Biden is still the worst available option right now for the primary. Maybe he won't be the worst in the general (I think he's still tied for worst with Trump), but he definitely is now. So I think it's fair for foreigners to be concerned with the outcome.

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I mean, I started off saying that it's fair for foreigners to be concerned about the outcome, lol. Climate, foreign affairs the list goes on. I was just addressing the specific example, which I didn't really feel was correct.

I get that a lot of the language around climate has shifted to maximalism. I get why, too. It's scary as hell. But that's exactly why I think it's so important to keep the upside in view. It's so easy to get burned out and miserable and that doesn't help anybody.

The issue with Climate Change also comes down to the fact that we start hitting certain positive feedback loops we can't turn off and there's not really compromising with that. You either activate them or you don't, so like, the differences between plans kind of don't matter much if both have those same end results of activating said loops (some of which have already started unfortunately). I don't know the exact specifics on how much of a different Biden's plan would make versus other ones, but I know setting goals out as far as 2050 is definitely way too late since most scientists agree we have maybe 10 years at best to try to mitigate things away from wider catastrophe and have a chance at keeping things somewhat in tact.

We can't rely on hopeful technology that still doesn't exist and may not exist for several years to get us there, we have to go with what we have now as aggressively as humanly possible.

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The various targets are a little less clear cut than that, but yeah, I feel you. I'd certainly favor going a hell of a lot harder than Biden's plan does. But I still stand by the rest of the argument. It's important to take the smaller wins too, rather than toss them aside. Keeps you sane.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

I mean, I started off saying that it's fair for foreigners to be concerned about the outcome, lol. Climate, foreign affairs the list goes on. I was just addressing the specific example, which I didn't really feel was correct.

I get that a lot of the language around climate has shifted to maximalism. I get why, too. It's scary as hell. But that's exactly why I think it's so important to keep the upside in view. It's so easy to get burned out and miserable and that doesn't help anybody.

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People scared of biden on climate aren't panicking because climate change is scary.

a lot of them are panicking because they read un climate reports and they know that the paris accords and 2050 as a target date are completely useless

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

Dem's "voting suppression" is suppressing progressive policies by the media and pundits.

Nobody ever ask how WE'RE going to pay for Biden's healthcare plan.

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Nobody is suppressing progressive policies either.

They are incredibly popular. The messenger of them, Bernie Sanders, isn't.

 

[Kirblar]

Nobody is suppressing progressive policies either.

They are incredibly popular. The messenger of them, Bernie Sanders, isn't.

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They're incredibly popular as long as they're not associated with the party that gets 90% of black voters in elections.

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

They're incredibly popular as long as they're not associated with the party that gets 90% of black voters in elections.

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This is accurate, yep.

 

[Poodlestrike]

People scared of biden on climate aren't panicking because climate change is scary.

a lot of them are panicking because they read un climate reports and they know that the paris accords and 2050 as a target date are completely useless

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I've read em too and it's not quite that clear cut. Changes made on the road to zero emissions slow the progress of warming. It's a meaningful difference, and it's best not to lose sight of that even while we're pushing for more.

 

[xenocide]

They're incredibly popular as long as they're not associated with the party that gets 90% of black voters in elections.

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I'd be curious to see how Progressive policies polled if the question was asked twice, but divided into "Policy X that would help you and your neighborhood" versus "Policy X that would help everyone in the country". I suspect the latter would see a drop off in support.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

I've read em too and it's not quite that clear cut. Changes made on the road to zero emissions slow the progress of warming. It's a meaningful difference, and it's best not to lose sight of that even while we're pushing for more.

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maybe we've read them in different contexts, their conclusions can't be understood separate from the importance of resource extraction to the global political economy

it cannot lead with politics because the economics will keep winning out until we're all swimming

 

[jviggy43]

I love that were talking about meaningful difference when both outcomes on climate are racing us towards the end of the world. Were really going to ride the liberal train of thought of "were not killing everyone as fast as republicans" to the very end of all life aren't we?

 

[Deleted member 176]

But that's exactly why I think it's so important to keep the upside in view. It's so easy to get burned out and miserable and that doesn't help anybody.

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I think "it will only be moderately catastrophic instead of even worse catastrophic" is both cold comfort to those who will be effected the most and actively dangerous because it makes people not takes things as seriously. There is no upside if we don't take much more dramatic action than what Biden or Trump will provide.

 

[Poodlestrike]

maybe we've read them in different contexts, their conclusions can't be understood separate from the importance of resource extraction to the global political economy

it cannot lead with politics because the economics will keep winning out until we're all swimming

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Well, that's sort of the interesting thing. I'd love to do a whole thread about this at some point but the program they ran over in Germany encouraging solar adoption led to some huge changes in those economics that I'm not sure people really appreciate yet, and can easily set a model for clean energy more generally that could be wildly successful. Lots of incredible work being done.

 

[Deleted member 8463]

All of those a problems created by the states who run the primaries. They decide on voting requirements and polling locations. The Democratic Party has nothing to do with them.

There was no DNC plot to suppress turnout. That would be the most self-defeating thing they could do.

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I understand that states create the conditions - or at least supreme court rulings, but does the party have nothing to do with the process at all? Still over 3 million unprocessed votes in CA.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

Well, that's sort of the interesting thing. I'd love to do a whole thread about this at some point but the program they ran over in Germany encouraging solar adoption led to some huge changes in those economics that I'm not sure people really appreciate yet, and can easily set a model for clean energy more generally that could be wildly successful. Lots of incredible work being done.

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most of the "incredible" work being done in export heavy wealthy nations like Germany and Sweden

look at Canada and Australia

look at poland

hell nucelar-phobia has driven germany and japan back to coal

how many places have even phased out coal? To my knowledge it's only eastern canada and parts of western europe

the encouraging cases are happening in places where there are less barriers to adoption

i've written some work on political barriers to decarbonization and it's really very dire

 

[Poodlestrike]

I love that were talking about meaningful difference when both outcomes on climate are racing us towards the end of the world. Were really going to ride the liberal train of thought of "were not killing everyone as fast as republicans" to the very end of all life aren't we?

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I'd appreciate if you quoted me if you wanted to comment on something I said.

I think "it will only be moderately catastrophic instead of even worse catastrophic" is both cold comfort to those who will be effected the most and actively dangerous because it makes people not takes things as seriously. There is no upside if we don't take much more dramatic action than what Biden or Trump will provide.

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There *is* an upside, though. To the tunes of millions and millions of lives. Biden's plan is nowhere near where I want, but it's still a hell of a thing. I'm mostly just saying not to lose sight of that.

 

[Deleted member 43]

I understand that states create the conditions - or at least supreme court rulings, but does the party have nothing to do with the process at all? Still over 3 million unprocessed votes in CA.

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Very, very little. Elections are run by states, even primaries (only caucuses are run by the Party). California is the one counting ballots in California, not the Democratic Party.

 

[SerAardvark]

I understand that states create the conditions - or at least supreme court rulings, but does the party have nothing to do with the process at all? Still over 3 million unprocessed votes in CA.

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California is always slow because of the number of mail in ballots (which just needed to be postmarked by voting day) and the sheer number of voters. From what I read, the counties that used the "you can vote at any location, not just your precinct" got swamped too, and turnout was higher than expected at other locations.

The state should do better, definitely, but it's nothing nefarious.

 

[KHarvey16]

The fact that you need to ask that question and put such a simple statement into quotes really says alot about your opinion of the left

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Ok I don't know what that means either. Just asking what "other means" are. And it's quoted so it makes sense grammatically.

This is why non-American have an interest in phone banking for Bernie over Biden. Both Biden and Trump are worst of the available options. Biden is the worst for the primary for sure, you can't argue that.

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Worse than the guy who likely can't get us the senate and has a better chance of losing the general? I'd argue not.

 

[Trey]

Dem's "voting suppression" is suppressing progressive policies by the media and pundits.

Nobody ever ask how WE'RE going to pay for Biden's healthcare plan.

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Because it's already known, seeing as it's based on current policy: the PPACA and Medicare/Medicaid.

 

[Soundscream]

Why do people keep mentioning that California is still counting? Do they think there is some double secret hidden delegates that will vault Bernie into the lead?

 

[Prodigal Son]

why hasnt there been a new 'who ya voting for' poll in this thread yet

 

[Poodlestrike]

most of the "incredible" work being done in export heavy wealthy nations like Germany and Sweden

look at Canada and Australia

look at poland

hell nucelar-phobia has driven germany and japan back to coal

how many places have even phased out coal? To my knowledge it's only eastern canada and parts of western europe

the encouraging cases are happening in places where there are less barriers to adoption

i've written some work on political barriers to decarbonization and it's really very dire

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Japan's example I'd heard of, that's really discouraging, along with the movement's general resistance to nuclear. The new small reactor tech is kind of amazing, if they can get production to scale. 50-60MW reactors cooled by convection, so they're totally safe. Could revolutionize things.

The tech work being done in export heavy nations is the first component, but the rest - well, there's been plenty of ink spilled on the link between economic viability and technical progression, I dont have to go over it. I'd be interested in reading your thoughts on the political challenges, though, if you'd like to link them.

 

[Deleted member 176]

Worse than the guy who likely can't get us the senate and has a better chance of losing the general? I'd argue not.

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Well, I don't think either of those things are true.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

I don't understand why more Americans aren't furious with the Democratic party for suppressing voters. For it to happen under Republican governments is one thing, but copying the tactic for the nomination is really bad? And barely anyone seems to give a fuck. I see a lot of piss taking about the youth not going out to vote, maybe start asking why?

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I need to see some receipts. Voter suppression in TX is caused by Republicans who control the state, I should know because I live in TX. As for California I can't speak for them but there is no evidence to my knowledge that the Democratic Party is engaged in any kind of voter suppression.

 

[BringBackSonics]

Why do people keep mentioning that California is still counting? Do they think there is some double secret hidden delegates that will vault Bernie into the lead?

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I think the opposite, Biden's delegates continue to grow as more votes are counted in California.

 

[jviggy43]

I'd appreciate if you quoted me if you wanted to comment on something I said.

There *is* an upside, though. To the tunes of millions and millions of lives. Biden's plan is nowhere near where I want, but it's still a hell of a thing. I'm mostly just saying not to lose sight of that.

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I didn't quote you because its a general sentiment multiple people have expressed in here, and what I was speaking to. If you have issue with what I said I'd like to hear why.

 

[DrewFu]

why hasnt there been a new 'who ya voting for' poll in this thread yet

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What's the point? We already know who Era is overwhelmingly voting for in the primaries. I don't mean that as any kind of a slight, but it's not a mystery.

 

[OrdinaryUsername]

Even though I think Joe Biden's plans are ok (despite the fact that he could do much better), I would never vote for him because of his inappropriate behaviour towards children. With his pedosexual tendencies, he belongs rather in prison.

Mod Edit: Content has been removed because the source is questionable.

 

[Nerokis]

Better isn't good! I want to reach only for perfect and be left with worst!

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Funnily enough, no one thinks this. For one thing, no one thinks Sanders is perfect, or that he would be able implement even his imperfect version in full. This isn't a perfect vs. the good thing: it's a, hey, let's give avoiding climate catastrophe, maximizing democracy across all aspects of American life, enshrining healthcare as a human right in America, subverting the imperialistic and neoliberal political establishment, etc. our best shot thing.

Someone earlier summed up Biden and Bernie as person who clearly doesn't have the strength to govern anymore vs. person who can't implement any of their policies anyway. I just don't get the latter part of that perspective. There is a constant negotiation going on, and people on all sides are constantly trying to enforce their own terms. That manifests in the form of bullshit electability arguments, in the shape of the corporate media, in the people who are boosted to leadership positions within the two viable political parties, and so on. Bernie dramatically changed the conversation just by giving Hillary some meaningful competition from the left in 2016; him being elected would, in and of itself, open up more space for real change than there has been in a long time.

In the meantime, even outside the scope of this comparison, Biden just sucks. It's depressing he of all people is who we decided to go with.

There *is* an upside, though. To the tunes of millions and millions of lives. Biden's plan is nowhere near where I want, but it's still a hell of a thing. I'm mostly just saying not to lose sight of that.

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Okay, now think about the downside of lowering expectations from "avert climate catastrophe" to "mitigate the impact of climate catastrophe around the edges." No one needs to be reminded that Biden is better than Trump on climate change.; on the other hand, it does seem to me there is a tendency to lose sight of how nefarious incrementalism can be, and how that is especially true when it comes to this subject of all subjects.

 

[jviggy43]

Better isn't good! I want to reach only for perfect and be left with worst!

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The irony of saying this when every last one of us is facing extinction and we have the means to stop it but no one wants to upset the capitalist system upholding the mechanisms driving us towards that end. Its a great reminder that liberals aren't your allies, aren't your friends, and aren't going to make life better for you. Theyre just going to kill you slightly slower than the other side. That sentiment was expressed strongly during the civil rights movement and is continually on display here.

 

[Steel]

most of the "incredible" work being done in export heavy wealthy nations like Germany and Sweden

look at Canada and Australia

look at poland

hell nucelar-phobia has driven germany and japan back to coal

how many places have even phased out coal? To my knowledge it's only eastern canada and parts of western europe

the encouraging cases are happening in places where there are less barriers to adoption

i've written some work on political barriers to decarbonization and it's really very dire

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Coal is only like 1.9% of power in France, so there's that.

 

[Rockets]

That AR-14 clip is exactly why Joe isn't electable. We're going to lose big with independents and moderates in the general if he's the nominee

 

[Pekola]

I'm very excited for this decade, when climate refugees become part of the issues to be discussed in politics.

Much to look forward to.