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Oct 25, 2017
3,396
Sorry this is somewhat OT and anecdotal, but I'm at a loss as to what impactfully makes a voter assess policies when making a choice.

Was talking about Bernie and Biden at work and I had two coworkers, both POC, confide in me separately that they're voting Trump regardless who the Dem nominee is because "Trump cuts my taxes". I tried to point out how all he did was cut them for the wealthy, and he even lied about a bullshit middle-class tax-cut a while back and got called out on it. Both essentially repiled with "Bernie and Dems will take more from my check".

None of us are working high-income-bracket jobs here.

I feel like for once, we are given a shot to actually vote for our interest, and we're squandering it.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
It's not a good look that every time a high profile black person doesn't go with Bernie, the reason is they are corrupt. They did the same thing to John Lewis in 2016
It's not a good look when a man who gets an inordinate amount of money from pharmaceutical companies makes an endorsement that more or less ends the campaign of the Medicare for all candidate.

Liberals have no problem attacking high profile black people when they support Medicare for all, look at the response any time Nina Turner or Ilhan Omar open their mouths.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,314
Reposting for the top of the page because it is very relevant:
Today:

Biden:
www.clarionledger.com

Joe Biden visits Mississippi church, college: 'This is a battle for the soul of America'

The former vice president is in Jackson two days before Mississippians cast ballots in the Democratic presidential primary.

Sanders:
act.berniesanders.com

Event with Bernie Sanders

Doors open at 4:30 p.m. and the event starts at 6:00 p.m. This event is hosted by Students for Bernie at University of Michigan.

Sanders is in trouble in Michigan, yes, but he's still close there and
• 7 p.m. on Friday, March 6, at Detroit's TCF Center (Hall C and D)

• 11 a.m. on Saturday, March 7, at Dearborn's Salina Intermediate School

• 12:30 p.m. on Sunday, March 8, at Grand Rapids' Calder Plaz

• 6 p.m. on Sunday, March 8, at Ann Arbor's University of Michigan Diag
He's been there all weekend. Meanwhile he's close to being rendered nonviable in Mississippi and what is he doing about it?

newsms.fm

Sanders cancels Mississippi visit, Biden still set to visit on Sunday - News Mississippi

Update #2: Bernie Sanders has canceled his appearance in Mississippi, according to his campaign. The Democratic Presidential hopeful was supposed to appear at the Two Mississippi Museums on Friday, but he will instead travel to Michigan. Update #1 Joe Biden won’t be the only Democratic...

This is why Sanders is losing and this is why people saying Biden isn't actually campaigning don't know what they're talking about.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,287
While it's true Biden doesn't poll very well with video game message board posters, he does do extremely well with the demographics that actually f'n vote in elections. Those people are coming out in record numbers for him and downplaying it only shows ignorance.

Let me preface this by saying I voted Bernie in Michigan. Warren was my first choice until she dropped out. Sanders was an easy #2 for me. Saying that, Bernie vote was mostly symbolic as the writing is on the wall and Biden will likely win MI pretty handily and FL next week will almost assuredly end it.

Anyways, posting drive-by 20-second clips of Biden literally doing "Biden" things means almost zero to the people that have known him for decades+. Biden is not some unknown commodity. And also, most people find "Biden-isms" endearing rather than disqualifying and his charisma is a big plus. Posting out context or edited clips is also a very Trumpian thing to do. I don't agree with Biden on much, but I fully feel he is a "decent" person and his heart is in the right place. Unlike the risk of Clinton, people "like" Biden the person exponentially more than most politicians.

Yesterday, Sanders went after something Biden said in 1974 regarding abortion. That ain't the way forward either. Like I said, people KNOW who Joe Biden is and what he stands for. He was the extremely popular Vice President of perhaps the most popular person living on this planet today. Passing some purity tests from decades ago just doesn't play well to the general public. Where he stands on things isn't some great mystery. Sure, it's changed over the decades, but it's just highlighting your own ignorance by acting like he's something that he is very much not.

Railing against his "cognitive" abilities or worse is also a terrible look. It shows no awareness when the alternatives are Bernie Sanders and half-man/half-Big Mac Donald Trump. it's also gross.

I know what I'm saying next is anecdotal, but good god, I have seen so much ugliness on Facebook from Sanders people that actively turns people away. For instance, my mom, a retired teacher and Warren supporter who never said a bad word about any other candidate, posted Warren's post on Medium about dropping out. My mom was devastated that day. On that thread, a few of her former students posted snake emojis, said she was screwing Sanders and other ugliness. It sucked. I've also seen GOOD people who supporter Pete, Amy or Biden be bombarded with "rat," "dementia" or other crass comments en masse almost always from Sanders supporters. What I'm saying is that Sanders people (and other candidates) need to treat Amy, Pete, Warren or other candidates that people support as FUTURE allies rather than combatants that risk alienating their support. Everyone of those people have their own unique life experiences and reasons for supporting them. Their flavor of candidate isn't all that much different than Sanders, and you should be hellbent on building bridges rather than putting up walls. Telling them they support you "dying" or whatever is an easy way to not have a productive conversation and convince them to come over. Moderates rallying around one candidate as the election goes on isn't some great "conspiracy" or ploy by the "establishment." It mostly just shows how poor Sanders/Progressives have been in expanding their coalition. When another candidate drops out and doesn't endorse Sanders or endorses another candidate, the attitude shouldn't be "fuck that person," but rather, what could we have done to "win" their support.

Also, for all of Biden's "gaffes," it's looking likely to me that the biggest gaffe of all was Sanders going on the Democratic stage and saying nice things about Castro. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, the presumptive favorite at the time who DESPERATELY needed to appeal to a broader audience literally said nice things about the boogeyman that scares so many moderates.

I guess what I hope Progressives learn from this disappointing cycle is to have a more welcoming and understanding message going forward. Fight like hell FOR your candidate rather than AGAINST other potential allies.
Amazing post!

giphy.gif
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
It's not a good look when a man who gets an inordinate amount of money from pharmaceutical companies makes an endorsement that more or less ends the campaign of the Medicare for all candidate.

Liberals have no problem attacking high profile black people when they support Medicare for all, look at the response any time Nina Turner or Ilhan Omar open their mouths.
The issues Turner and Omar have run into have absolutely nothing to do with M4A.

Like, to believe this, you have to believe that people are being disingenuous and making excuses to attack them because of policy disagreements, instead of taking people at their word when they mention other things.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,431
a lot of folks in these united states are perfectly happy to attack black people of all political alignments for things white people can get away with without comment, but it's still less than great optics to attack a civil rights activist, and even if you decide to you should probs focus on specific disagreements instead of just throwing a blanket "our politics are not the same," because like that won't be blasted out by the tr*mp campaign every day in the general election
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,630
It's not a good look when a man who gets an inordinate amount of money from pharmaceutical companies makes an endorsement that more or less ends the campaign of the Medicare for all candidate.

Liberals have no problem attacking high profile black people when they support Medicare for all, look at the response any time Nina Turner or Ilhan Omar open their mouths.
So a man that worked to get health care to the uninsured and low income is in the pocket of big pharm?
 

carlsojo

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 28, 2017
34,063
San Francisco
While it's true Biden doesn't poll very well with video game message board posters, he does do extremely well with the demographics that actually f'n vote in elections. Those people are coming out in record numbers for him and downplaying it only shows ignorance.

Let me preface this by saying I voted Bernie in Michigan. Warren was my first choice until she dropped out. Sanders was an easy #2 for me. Saying that, Bernie vote was mostly symbolic as the writing is on the wall and Biden will likely win MI pretty handily and FL next week will almost assuredly end it.

Anyways, posting drive-by 20-second clips of Biden literally doing "Biden" things means almost zero to the people that have known him for decades+. Biden is not some unknown commodity. And also, most people find "Biden-isms" endearing rather than disqualifying and his charisma is a big plus. Posting out context or edited clips is also a very Trumpian thing to do. I don't agree with Biden on much, but I fully feel he is a "decent" person and his heart is in the right place. Unlike the risk of Clinton, people "like" Biden the person exponentially more than most politicians.

Yesterday, Sanders went after something Biden said in 1974 regarding abortion. That ain't the way forward either. Like I said, people KNOW who Joe Biden is and what he stands for. He was the extremely popular Vice President of perhaps the most popular person living on this planet today. Passing some purity tests from decades ago just doesn't play well to the general public. Where he stands on things isn't some great mystery. Sure, it's changed over the decades, but it's just highlighting your own ignorance by acting like he's something that he is very much not.

Railing against his "cognitive" abilities or worse is also a terrible look. It shows no awareness when the alternatives are Bernie Sanders and half-man/half-Big Mac Donald Trump. it's also gross.

I know what I'm saying next is anecdotal, but good god, I have seen so much ugliness on Facebook from Sanders people that actively turns people away. For instance, my mom, a retired teacher and Warren supporter who never said a bad word about any other candidate, posted Warren's post on Medium about dropping out. My mom was devastated that day. On that thread, a few of her former students posted snake emojis, said she was screwing Sanders and other ugliness. It sucked. I've also seen GOOD people who supporter Pete, Amy or Biden be bombarded with "rat," "dementia" or other crass comments en masse almost always from Sanders supporters. What I'm saying is that Sanders people (and other candidates) need to treat Amy, Pete, Warren or other candidates that people support as FUTURE allies rather than combatants that risk alienating their support. Everyone of those people have their own unique life experiences and reasons for supporting them. Their flavor of candidate isn't all that much different than Sanders, and you should be hellbent on building bridges rather than putting up walls. Telling them they support you "dying" or whatever is an easy way to not have a productive conversation and convince them to come over. Moderates rallying around one candidate as the election goes on isn't some great "conspiracy" or ploy by the "establishment." It mostly just shows how poor Sanders/Progressives have been in expanding their coalition. When another candidate drops out and doesn't endorse Sanders or endorses another candidate, the attitude shouldn't be "fuck that person," but rather, what could we have done to "win" their support.

Also, for all of Biden's "gaffes," it's looking likely to me that the biggest gaffe of all was Sanders going on the Democratic stage and saying nice things about Castro. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, the presumptive favorite at the time who DESPERATELY needed to appeal to a broader audience literally said nice things about the boogeyman that scares so many moderates.

I guess what I hope Progressives learn from this disappointing cycle is to have a more welcoming and understanding message going forward. Fight like hell FOR your candidate rather than AGAINST other potential allies.

Post of the year
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
So a man that worked to get health care to the uninsured and low income is in the pocket of big pharm?
He worked to keep it from them, and he is literally in the pocket of big pharma. The money he gets from them is part of the public record. It's not a conspiracy, it's publicly available information.

I guess it's possible it's just a coincidence that he gets a disproportionate amount of money from them tho and his honest beliefs just happen to match up with theirs
 

Deleted member 16365

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,127
While it's true Biden doesn't poll very well with video game message board posters, he does do extremely well with the demographics that actually f'n vote in elections. Those people are coming out in record numbers for him and downplaying it only shows ignorance.

Let me preface this by saying I voted Bernie in Michigan. Warren was my first choice until she dropped out. Sanders was an easy #2 for me. Saying that, Bernie vote was mostly symbolic as the writing is on the wall and Biden will likely win MI pretty handily and FL next week will almost assuredly end it.

Anyways, posting drive-by 20-second clips of Biden literally doing "Biden" things means almost zero to the people that have known him for decades+. Biden is not some unknown commodity. And also, most people find "Biden-isms" endearing rather than disqualifying and his charisma is a big plus. Posting out context or edited clips is also a very Trumpian thing to do. I don't agree with Biden on much, but I fully feel he is a "decent" person and his heart is in the right place. Unlike the risk of Clinton, people "like" Biden the person exponentially more than most politicians.

Yesterday, Sanders went after something Biden said in 1974 regarding abortion. That ain't the way forward either. Like I said, people KNOW who Joe Biden is and what he stands for. He was the extremely popular Vice President of perhaps the most popular person living on this planet today. Passing some purity tests from decades ago just doesn't play well to the general public. Where he stands on things isn't some great mystery. Sure, it's changed over the decades, but it's just highlighting your own ignorance by acting like he's something that he is very much not.

Railing against his "cognitive" abilities or worse is also a terrible look. It shows no awareness when the alternatives are Bernie Sanders and half-man/half-Big Mac Donald Trump. it's also gross.

I know what I'm saying next is anecdotal, but good god, I have seen so much ugliness on Facebook from Sanders people that actively turns people away. For instance, my mom, a retired teacher and Warren supporter who never said a bad word about any other candidate, posted Warren's post on Medium about dropping out. My mom was devastated that day. On that thread, a few of her former students posted snake emojis, said she was screwing Sanders and other ugliness. It sucked. I've also seen GOOD people who supporter Pete, Amy or Biden be bombarded with "rat," "dementia" or other crass comments en masse almost always from Sanders supporters. What I'm saying is that Sanders people (and other candidates) need to treat Amy, Pete, Warren or other candidates that people support as FUTURE allies rather than combatants that risk alienating their support. Everyone of those people have their own unique life experiences and reasons for supporting them. Their flavor of candidate isn't all that much different than Sanders, and you should be hellbent on building bridges rather than putting up walls. Telling them they support you "dying" or whatever is an easy way to not have a productive conversation and convince them to come over. Moderates rallying around one candidate as the election goes on isn't some great "conspiracy" or ploy by the "establishment." It mostly just shows how poor Sanders/Progressives have been in expanding their coalition. When another candidate drops out and doesn't endorse Sanders or endorses another candidate, the attitude shouldn't be "fuck that person," but rather, what could we have done to "win" their support.

Also, for all of Biden's "gaffes," it's looking likely to me that the biggest gaffe of all was Sanders going on the Democratic stage and saying nice things about Castro. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, the presumptive favorite at the time who DESPERATELY needed to appeal to a broader audience literally said nice things about the boogeyman that scares so many moderates.

I guess what I hope Progressives learn from this disappointing cycle is to have a more welcoming and understanding message going forward. Fight like hell FOR your candidate rather than AGAINST other potential allies.

So much this. This should be linked in the next OT as how you discuss politics.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,382
Meanwhile, "Bernie has a problem with blacks"-era LITERALLY ignored this post, so reposting:

theintercept.com

Jesse Jackson Endorses Bernie Sanders in Michigan

Sanders was a key supporter of Jackson’s 1988 presidential campaign, which came stunningly close to an upset.
A little too late and Biden's actually engaging with Black Americans in Mississippi
www.clarionledger.com

Joe Biden visits Mississippi church, college: 'This is a battle for the soul of America'

The former vice president is in Jackson two days before Mississippians cast ballots in the Democratic presidential primary.

The people who can vote for him you know. He does all of this even while he's part of another denomination and paid the price of ex-communication in order to advance liberal and progressive policies.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Meanwhile, "Bernie has a problem with blacks"-era LITERALLY ignored this post, so reposting:

theintercept.com

Jesse Jackson Endorses Bernie Sanders in Michigan

Sanders was a key supporter of Jackson’s 1988 presidential campaign, which came stunningly close to an upset.
Jesse Jackson endorsing Sanders is not a surprise given their history with Sanders backing Jackson in 1988 (and it not going over well in Vermont, which I think lead to some lessons for Sanders that helped locally and were a big problem nationally.) Jesse Jackson is also not black voters incarnate and does not fix Sanders' issues with devastating margins in the demographic that are singlehandedly derailing his campaign for the second time.

1988 Jesse Jackson also could have won this election. Something Sanders is not going to be able to do.
 

SneakersSO

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,353
North America
Don't think there's a good answer for any of them. Also, gets to the "gross" category when we have people playing neurologist on the internet often acting in extremely bad faith.

Bad faith or not, its still a huge concern regardless. There are clear examples of his public speaking decline in literally the last 4 years. There is clearly something going on, and they are basically caught in a catch-22, and not just the Biden campaign but Dems in general, cause now the entire democratic base has to pretend that its not only not an issue that is worsening (although at what rate is debatable), but that its simply good enough to hopefully have him survive 4-8 years with.

Personally, the attacks i'm more concerned about RE: Biden are the investigatable situations his family had in both Ukraine and in China, and beating him on his voting record on things like NAFTA, something which the mid-west still hasn't gotten over, that Trump replaced, and that Biden actually endorsed. This is the exact crowd Hillary lost along the same exact lines (NAFTA support) which ultimately lost her the election.

But like I said - he ain't my problem; i'm not voting for Biden in the general. Democrats wanna roll the dice on this, its totally on them.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,630
He worked to keep it from them, and he is literally in the pocket of big pharma. The money he gets from them is part of the public record. It's not a conspiracy, it's publicly available information.

I guess it's possible it's just a coincidence that he gets a disproportionate amount of money from them tho and his honest beliefs just happen to match up with theirs
Now you being disingenuous

Clyburn Statement on Clyburn-Sanders Community Health Centers Bill

Washington, D.C. – Assistant Democratic Leader James E. Clyburn delivered the following remarks today on the Clyburn-Sanders Community Health Centers Bill (as prepared for delivery): “I am pleased to join Senator Sanders to introduce the Community Health Center and Primary Care Workforce...

If you don't like the man because he didn't endorse Bernie say it, don't lie about him
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,687
A little too late and Biden's actually engaging with Black Americans in Mississippi
www.clarionledger.com

Joe Biden visits Mississippi church, college: 'This is a battle for the soul of America'

The former vice president is in Jackson two days before Mississippians cast ballots in the Democratic presidential primary.

The people who can vote for him you know. He does all of this even while he's part of another denomination and paid the price of ex-communication in order to advance liberal and progressive policies.
Framing this as something worth praise is ridiculous - being pro choice is decent thing to do and should be THE standard for Democratic politicians.
 

R dott B

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,142
While it's true Biden doesn't poll very well with video game message board posters, he does do extremely well with the demographics that actually f'n vote in elections. Those people are coming out in record numbers for him and downplaying it only shows ignorance.

Let me preface this by saying I voted Bernie in Michigan. Warren was my first choice until she dropped out. Sanders was an easy #2 for me. Saying that, Bernie vote was mostly symbolic as the writing is on the wall and Biden will likely win MI pretty handily and FL next week will almost assuredly end it.

Anyways, posting drive-by 20-second clips of Biden literally doing "Biden" things means almost zero to the people that have known him for decades+. Biden is not some unknown commodity. And also, most people find "Biden-isms" endearing rather than disqualifying and his charisma is a big plus. Posting out context or edited clips is also a very Trumpian thing to do. I don't agree with Biden on much, but I fully feel he is a "decent" person and his heart is in the right place. Unlike the risk of Clinton, people "like" Biden the person exponentially more than most politicians.

Yesterday, Sanders went after something Biden said in 1974 regarding abortion. That ain't the way forward either. Like I said, people KNOW who Joe Biden is and what he stands for. He was the extremely popular Vice President of perhaps the most popular person living on this planet today. Passing some purity tests from decades ago just doesn't play well to the general public. Where he stands on things isn't some great mystery. Sure, it's changed over the decades, but it's just highlighting your own ignorance by acting like he's something that he is very much not.

Railing against his "cognitive" abilities or worse is also a terrible look. It shows no awareness when the alternatives are Bernie Sanders and half-man/half-Big Mac Donald Trump. it's also gross.

I know what I'm saying next is anecdotal, but good god, I have seen so much ugliness on Facebook from Sanders people that actively turns people away. For instance, my mom, a retired teacher and Warren supporter who never said a bad word about any other candidate, posted Warren's post on Medium about dropping out. My mom was devastated that day. On that thread, a few of her former students posted snake emojis, said she was screwing Sanders and other ugliness. It sucked. I've also seen GOOD people who supporter Pete, Amy or Biden be bombarded with "rat," "dementia" or other crass comments en masse almost always from Sanders supporters. What I'm saying is that Sanders people (and other candidates) need to treat Amy, Pete, Warren or other candidates that people support as FUTURE allies rather than combatants that risk alienating their support. Everyone of those people have their own unique life experiences and reasons for supporting them. Their flavor of candidate isn't all that much different than Sanders, and you should be hellbent on building bridges rather than putting up walls. Telling them they support you "dying" or whatever is an easy way to not have a productive conversation and convince them to come over. Moderates rallying around one candidate as the election goes on isn't some great "conspiracy" or ploy by the "establishment." It mostly just shows how poor Sanders/Progressives have been in expanding their coalition. When another candidate drops out and doesn't endorse Sanders or endorses another candidate, the attitude shouldn't be "fuck that person," but rather, what could we have done to "win" their support.

Also, for all of Biden's "gaffes," it's looking likely to me that the biggest gaffe of all was Sanders going on the Democratic stage and saying nice things about Castro. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, the presumptive favorite at the time who DESPERATELY needed to appeal to a broader audience literally said nice things about the boogeyman that scares so many moderates.

I guess what I hope Progressives learn from this disappointing cycle is to have a more welcoming and understanding message going forward. Fight like hell FOR your candidate rather than AGAINST other potential allies.
Good stuff
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
Now you being disingenuous

Clyburn Statement on Clyburn-Sanders Community Health Centers Bill

Washington, D.C. – Assistant Democratic Leader James E. Clyburn delivered the following remarks today on the Clyburn-Sanders Community Health Centers Bill (as prepared for delivery): “I am pleased to join Senator Sanders to introduce the Community Health Center and Primary Care Workforce...

If you don't like the man because he didn't endorse Bernie say it, don't lie about him
I'm talking about his decision to endorse Joe Biden in the primary, which will lead to millions of uninsured Americans if he manages to win in November. His past actions don't cancel out his most recent and significant one.

Clyburn is just one member of a hugely corrupt system though. I agree it is unfair to single him out when many more are complicit.
 

V_Arnold

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,166
Hungary
Jesse Jackson endorsing Sanders is not a surprise given their history with Sanders backing Jackson in 1988 (and it not going over well in Vermont, which I think lead to some lessons for Sanders that helped locally and were a big problem nationally.) Jesse Jackson is also not black voters incarnate and does not fix Sanders' issues with devastating margins in the demographic that are singlehandedly derailing his campaign for the second time.

1988 Jesse Jackson also could have won this election. Something Sanders is not going to be able to do.

My point is more of a reply to those who keep saying that "every time someone from the african american community endorses someone other than Bernie, he/she gets attacked", coupled with the constant attacks characterizing Bernie's campaigns as unviable with minorities while that particular quality was more Pete Buttigeg's and Amy's thing. The double standards keep reappering. And no, I will not try to take the endorsements away from Biden.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,110

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,795
DFW
While it's true Biden doesn't poll very well with video game message board posters, he does do extremely well with the demographics that actually f'n vote in elections. Those people are coming out in record numbers for him and downplaying it only shows ignorance.

Let me preface this by saying I voted Bernie in Michigan. Warren was my first choice until she dropped out. Sanders was an easy #2 for me. Saying that, Bernie vote was mostly symbolic as the writing is on the wall and Biden will likely win MI pretty handily and FL next week will almost assuredly end it.

Anyways, posting drive-by 20-second clips of Biden literally doing "Biden" things means almost zero to the people that have known him for decades+. Biden is not some unknown commodity. And also, most people find "Biden-isms" endearing rather than disqualifying and his charisma is a big plus. Posting out context or edited clips is also a very Trumpian thing to do. I don't agree with Biden on much, but I fully feel he is a "decent" person and his heart is in the right place. Unlike the risk of Clinton, people "like" Biden the person exponentially more than most politicians.

Yesterday, Sanders went after something Biden said in 1974 regarding abortion. That ain't the way forward either. Like I said, people KNOW who Joe Biden is and what he stands for. He was the extremely popular Vice President of perhaps the most popular person living on this planet today. Passing some purity tests from decades ago just doesn't play well to the general public. Where he stands on things isn't some great mystery. Sure, it's changed over the decades, but it's just highlighting your own ignorance by acting like he's something that he is very much not.

Railing against his "cognitive" abilities or worse is also a terrible look. It shows no awareness when the alternatives are Bernie Sanders and half-man/half-Big Mac Donald Trump. it's also gross.

I know what I'm saying next is anecdotal, but good god, I have seen so much ugliness on Facebook from Sanders people that actively turns people away. For instance, my mom, a retired teacher and Warren supporter who never said a bad word about any other candidate, posted Warren's post on Medium about dropping out. My mom was devastated that day. On that thread, a few of her former students posted snake emojis, said she was screwing Sanders and other ugliness. It sucked. I've also seen GOOD people who supporter Pete, Amy or Biden be bombarded with "rat," "dementia" or other crass comments en masse almost always from Sanders supporters. What I'm saying is that Sanders people (and other candidates) need to treat Amy, Pete, Warren or other candidates that people support as FUTURE allies rather than combatants that risk alienating their support. Everyone of those people have their own unique life experiences and reasons for supporting them. Their flavor of candidate isn't all that much different than Sanders, and you should be hellbent on building bridges rather than putting up walls. Telling them they support you "dying" or whatever is an easy way to not have a productive conversation and convince them to come over. Moderates rallying around one candidate as the election goes on isn't some great "conspiracy" or ploy by the "establishment." It mostly just shows how poor Sanders/Progressives have been in expanding their coalition. When another candidate drops out and doesn't endorse Sanders or endorses another candidate, the attitude shouldn't be "fuck that person," but rather, what could we have done to "win" their support.

Also, for all of Biden's "gaffes," it's looking likely to me that the biggest gaffe of all was Sanders going on the Democratic stage and saying nice things about Castro. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, the presumptive favorite at the time who DESPERATELY needed to appeal to a broader audience literally said nice things about the boogeyman that scares so many moderates.

I guess what I hope Progressives learn from this disappointing cycle is to have a more welcoming and understanding message going forward. Fight like hell FOR your candidate rather than AGAINST other potential allies.
Fantastic post.

I think it's also worth mentioning that the Sanders camp chose to fight a two-front war: against the "establishment" and against Donald Trump simultaneously.

The Sanders campaign should've been attempting to craft strategic messaging to attract voters who were likely/lean Warren from Day One, as well as attempt to attract potential Pete/Amy voters. Of course the field was going to shrink as time passed; the "let's get 30% in a crowded field and disproportionately rely on a voting bloc notorious for poor turnout" strategy was DOA, and Sanders should have fired the campaign manager or campaign staff that devised it.

Bernie had a 3-year head start, and this was the best he could do? That's not to say the Biden campaign wasn't and isn't poorly run, and placing all its eggs in the South Carolina basket only looks better now because it actually worked.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
This but unironically.

The electorate has shown that it doesn't like details and specifics, and prefers getting high on hopium, why not lean into that? What is the benefit of getting bogged down on details when doing so delivers neither electoral nor ideological results?

Well, as part of the electorate, I enjoy people who care about getting their policy implemented. Maybe I'm alone on that, not sure.
 

Soundscream

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,241

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,630
I'm talking about his decision to endorse Joe Biden in the primary, which will lead to millions of uninsured Americans if he manages to win in November. His past actions don't cancel out his most recent and significant one.

Clyburn is just one member of a hugely corrupt system though. I agree it is unfair to single him out when many more are complicit.
Yes the all powerful corrupt overlords of *check notes* black lawmakers and voters. They ruin everything
 

Deleted member 22901

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
240
hey everybody, never posted in this thread before but i figured this would fit here too. i already posted this in the socialism ot and got a warm response so i figured i would share it with you folks. this is essentially the reasons why i'm voting for bernie in the primary, and why biden scares me. if you're not a sanders supporter, i hope you read it with an open mind. i'm not here to argue and i understand if you're still wary of sanders, but thank you for reading even if you don't agree with me.

CW for mentions of suicide
I'm supporting Bernie Sanders because I'm trans and disabled, and I think Sanders is the candidate who would help people like me the most. My dad is diabetic and in a few years he's going to be out of a job. I don't know how he's going to afford his insulin. Medicare for all would be a lifesaver for me and millions of other people like me and my dad.

I suffer from extreme anxiety (GAD), I have suicidal depression, and I have ADHD. I don't have a job and I'm not in school because of how severe my anxiety is. I can barely go to the doctors office or my therapist because of how bad it is. If Bernie wins the presidency I can start getting the help I need without the financial stress that comes with it. If Biden is the nominee and loses the general, as I strongly believe he would, I have no idea what I would do. I don't think I am capable of holding on in these conditions for much longer. We need actual material change.

It makes me so upset when I see people dismissing and even mocking the concerns of Sanders supporters because there are a few people who take things too far. I know that there are toxic supporters, but please think about where all this anger is coming from. We can't go on like this forever. People are dying.

I can't convince everyone support Sanders, but I know there are empathetic people out there who are still wary of him or on the fence. Please just consider what I'm saying. I'm not trying to guilt you, I just want you to understand.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,170
Jesse Jackson endorsing Sanders is not a surprise given their history with Sanders backing Jackson in 1988 (and it not going over well in Vermont, which I think lead to some lessons for Sanders that helped locally and were a big problem nationally.) Jesse Jackson is also not black voters incarnate and does not fix Sanders' issues with devastating margins in the demographic that are singlehandedly derailing his campaign for the second time.

1988 Jesse Jackson also could have won this election. Something Sanders is not going to be able to do.

This is pretty dismissive of one of the most exciting African American candidates for anything until Obama, especially considering only three white politicians at the time, including Sanders, endorsed him (which is kind of a big deal). Black voters also derailed Hillary's campaign by not showing up in Michigan and Pennsylvania because many didn't like her any more than Trump; that just happened to happen in the general, not the primary.
 

Deleted member 3896

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
While it's true Biden doesn't poll very well with video game message board posters, he does do extremely well with the demographics that actually f'n vote in elections. Those people are coming out in record numbers for him and downplaying it only shows ignorance.

Let me preface this by saying I voted Bernie in Michigan. Warren was my first choice until she dropped out. Sanders was an easy #2 for me. Saying that, Bernie vote was mostly symbolic as the writing is on the wall and Biden will likely win MI pretty handily and FL next week will almost assuredly end it.

Anyways, posting drive-by 20-second clips of Biden literally doing "Biden" things means almost zero to the people that have known him for decades+. Biden is not some unknown commodity. And also, most people find "Biden-isms" endearing rather than disqualifying and his charisma is a big plus. Posting out context or edited clips is also a very Trumpian thing to do. I don't agree with Biden on much, but I fully feel he is a "decent" person and his heart is in the right place. Unlike the risk of Clinton, people "like" Biden the person exponentially more than most politicians.

Yesterday, Sanders went after something Biden said in 1974 regarding abortion. That ain't the way forward either. Like I said, people KNOW who Joe Biden is and what he stands for. He was the extremely popular Vice President of perhaps the most popular person living on this planet today. Passing some purity tests from decades ago just doesn't play well to the general public. Where he stands on things isn't some great mystery. Sure, it's changed over the decades, but it's just highlighting your own ignorance by acting like he's something that he is very much not.

Railing against his "cognitive" abilities or worse is also a terrible look. It shows no awareness when the alternatives are Bernie Sanders and half-man/half-Big Mac Donald Trump. it's also gross.

I know what I'm saying next is anecdotal, but good god, I have seen so much ugliness on Facebook from Sanders people that actively turns people away. For instance, my mom, a retired teacher and Warren supporter who never said a bad word about any other candidate, posted Warren's post on Medium about dropping out. My mom was devastated that day. On that thread, a few of her former students posted snake emojis, said she was screwing Sanders and other ugliness. It sucked. I've also seen GOOD people who supporter Pete, Amy or Biden be bombarded with "rat," "dementia" or other crass comments en masse almost always from Sanders supporters. What I'm saying is that Sanders people (and other candidates) need to treat Amy, Pete, Warren or other candidates that people support as FUTURE allies rather than combatants that risk alienating their support. Everyone of those people have their own unique life experiences and reasons for supporting them. Their flavor of candidate isn't all that much different than Sanders, and you should be hellbent on building bridges rather than putting up walls. Telling them they support you "dying" or whatever is an easy way to not have a productive conversation and convince them to come over. Moderates rallying around one candidate as the election goes on isn't some great "conspiracy" or ploy by the "establishment." It mostly just shows how poor Sanders/Progressives have been in expanding their coalition. When another candidate drops out and doesn't endorse Sanders or endorses another candidate, the attitude shouldn't be "fuck that person," but rather, what could we have done to "win" their support.

Also, for all of Biden's "gaffes," it's looking likely to me that the biggest gaffe of all was Sanders going on the Democratic stage and saying nice things about Castro. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, the presumptive favorite at the time who DESPERATELY needed to appeal to a broader audience literally said nice things about the boogeyman that scares so many moderates.

I guess what I hope Progressives learn from this disappointing cycle is to have a more welcoming and understanding message going forward. Fight like hell FOR your candidate rather than AGAINST other potential allies.
*applause*
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,314
I thought this was smart campaigning? That's what people called it when Biden proudly outright skipped two of the first four states.
"I have a problem with a certain demographic and am at risk of being rendered entirely nonviable in a state due to these issues. Guess I'll just skip that state and potentially hand my opponent 41 uncontested delegates." is pretty stupid campaigning, as my post on this page and the last lays out, but you've chosen to ignore for some reason.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
My point is more of a reply to those who keep saying that "every time someone from the african american community endorses someone other than Bernie, he/she gets attacked", coupled with the constant attacks characterizing Bernie's campaigns as unviable with minorities while that particular quality was more Pete Buttigeg's and Amy's thing. The double standards keep reappering. And no, I will not try to take the endorsements away from Biden.
Those are not "attacks". Those are statements of fact. Bernie got only 25% of black voters in 2016. Black voters made up 27% of the electorate in 2016. To overcome this, Bernie would have had to have won over 59.2% of all non-black voters. This did not happen and is a near-impossible margin to get.

And to extend on this, in 2016, nonwhite voters were 36% of the Democratic primary electorate. Black voters make up 75% of it. If you have lost 75% of black voters, you have lost all racial minority voters by losing 56.5% with 1 group alone. It is not possible to make up that kind of lopsided margin elsewhere as the numbers aren't there.

In 2020, today, Bernie's numbers with black voters are not much better, while his numbers with white voters are worse than 2016 by quite a bit.

People being able to do math and accurately analyze it is not a double standard. Pointing out Bernie has twice had absurdly bad margins with black voters is not a double standard. Acknowledging reality is not a double standard.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
hey everybody, never posted in this thread before but i figured this would fit here too. i already posted this in the socialism ot and got a warm response so i figured i would share it with you folks. this is essentially the reasons why i'm voting for bernie in the primary, and why biden scares me. if you're not a sanders supporter, i hope you read it with an open mind. i'm not here to argue and i understand if you're still wary of sanders, but thank you for reading even if you don't agree with me.

CW for mentions of suicide
I'm supporting Bernie Sanders because I'm trans and disabled, and I think Sanders is the candidate who would help people like me the most. My dad is diabetic and in a few years he's going to be out of a job. I don't know how he's going to afford his insulin. Medicare for all would be a lifesaver for me and millions of other people like me and my dad.

I suffer from extreme anxiety (GAD), I have suicidal depression, and I have ADHD. I don't have a job and I'm not in school because of how severe my anxiety is. I can barely go to the doctors office or my therapist because of how bad it is. If Bernie wins the presidency I can start getting the help I need without the financial stress that comes with it. If Biden is the nominee and loses the general, as I strongly believe he would, I have no idea what I would do. I don't think I am capable of holding on in these conditions for much longer. We need actual material change.

It makes me so upset when I see people dismissing and even mocking the concerns of Sanders supporters because there are a few people who take things too far. I know that there are toxic supporters, but please think about where all this anger is coming from. We can't go on like this forever. People are dying.

I can't convince everyone support Sanders, but I know there are empathetic people out there who are still wary of him or on the fence. Please just consider what I'm saying. I'm not trying to guilt you, I just want you to understand.
Thank you for posting this here. I hope your message reaches some of us outside of the Socialism OT. We can only get through this together.
 

Wracu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,396
I'm talking about his decision to endorse Joe Biden in the primary, which will lead to millions of uninsured Americans if he manages to win in November. His past actions don't cancel out his most recent and significant one.

Clyburn is just one member of a hugely corrupt system though. I agree it is unfair to single him out when many more are complicit.

You are aware that Sanders has no clue how to get his healthcare plan passed and he's so delusional about it he thinks the filibuster should remain? If Bernie is as incapable of taking the intermediate steps as he seems, he'd actually result in more uninsured as nothing whatsoever would change. I'm not defending Biden here, but it's hilarious how Bernie stans seem so clueless about the prospects of his plans passing even if we win the Senate.

And then try to argue against others based on their fantasy wish fulfillment.

I'll also say this is why many in the media and billionaire's pearl clutching when he was the frontrunner never made sense. The realities of the Senate with a filibuster in place ensure nothing extremely progressive is going to pass. Because we suck as a country.
 

blackw0lf48

Member
Jan 2, 2019
3,017
I think one of the mistakes they Bernie camp is making right now is that while I think it's smart to bring up Biden's support in the past for social security cuts and the bankruptcy bill, the focus should be is on how it weakens Biden in the general as trump will use that against him: Right now they are saying that, but also that you can't trust Biden to say support social security. Which in itself is a fine argument but it muffles the message, and so people miss the I think stronger argument for persuading people not to support Biden, as electability is the main factor in how people are voting right now.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,795
DFW
I thought this was smart campaigning? That's what people called it when Biden proudly outright skipped two of the first four states.
I don't think anyone's credited Biden for smart campaigning. The most generous take is that: his South Carolina gambit was incredibly risky but somehow paid off; his decades-long ties to other Democratic leaders have translated into key endorsements; and he's managed to, thus far, avoid any self-inflicted wounds like Bernie's Castro comments.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
This is pretty dismissive of one of the most exciting African American candidates for anything until Obama, especially considering only three white politicians at the time, including Sanders, endorsed him (which is kind of a big deal). Black voters also derailed Hillary's campaign by not showing up in Michigan and Pennsylvania because many didn't like her any more than Trump; that just happened to happen in the general, not the primary.
Endorsements are not going to fix Sanders' fundamental issues with black voters. This has nothing to do with dismissing Jackson and everything to do with why Sanders' campaign has gotten nowhere on this front in the past 5 years. The problem with Sanders' approach has been that he's been willing to do grand gestures, but never put in the legwork or actually adapt his campaign to try and work with that community. It's a bottom up problem he's trying to solve from the top down. And when the going has gotten tough for Sanders in both 2016 and 2020, his campaign has got going, both times running away from the south to areas more friendly to Sanders. Something which could result in Biden being the only viable candidate in multiple southern states this time around.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,392
User Banned (1 Month): Aggressively dismissing minority concerns.
It's not a good look that every time a high profile black person doesn't go with Bernie, the reason is they are corrupt. They did the same thing to John Lewis in 2016
So someone who has taken big money from an incredibly corrupt industry is immune from criticism because he's black? It's been a strong criticism from the left of his for years. Go on and ignore it, using his skin color as a shield though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,105
NYC
It's so frustrating to see Bernie blaming all his problems on the "establishment".

Just no introspection. No coalition building

think of what could've happened if he tried to run his campaign differently this time...
 
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