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Deleted member 60302

User requested account closure
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Sep 29, 2019
100
In the future politicians know now to have 10% of their online farm team post as opposing angry leftists. I'd rather this country go to hell in a well mannered handbasket than have angry people give me healthcare.
Yeah, because Bernie was the only one with a Universal Healthcare plan.

And youre right people are rational actors who dont mind being harassed on their spaces and would definitely join the equivalent of glorified sports teams. People are definitely all perfect!

Are you under the impression I hate Bernie and his policies? As opposed to his garbage campaign??

Please get over your social ineptitude and understand that you cant garner voters when it looks like a large portion of your base goes scorched earth on people who strongly identify with a candidate in a primary where you elect a nominee in order to win a general election.

Sanders truly ran a bad campaign
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
Why don't the other candidates have so many faux pas then? I understand a slip on the campaign, but there's something every other day.

because Biden's had a stutter his entire life. like that changes the calculus quite a bit cause now he had to compensate for both being tired and trying to control his stutter
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,049
Gaffes are only a killer for women and minorities.

Old white men? "He reminds me of grandpa so much!"
 

Euron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,772
Lol what the hell?
Are you actually saying people in this thread would prefer Trump to Sanders?
Yeah that's a ridiculous claim. This entire site including myself has warmed up much more to Sanders as primary season has gone on but it's pretty obvious now that Biden will be the nominee. So instead of attacks on each other, it's best to focus on how to put the party in the best position to defeat Trump. Sanders shouldn't drop out yet as there's still an outside chance he could come back but he should also be careful with word choices that don't hurt Biden or the party in the general.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,049
In the future politicians know now to have 10% of their online farm team post as opposing angry leftists. I'd rather this country go to hell in a well mannered handbasket than have angry people give me healthcare.
But the people winning it for Biden ain't even on the internet, real talk.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,142
No worries, man! I never put anyone on ignore, so what you say might very well be true haha.

Ithil AniHawk : Trump's (and, frankly, the Republicans') potential electorate isn't beholden to the same standards of civil discourse and factual truth than the Democrats. That's why he's able to win and have a high approval rating despite calling Mexicans rapists and lying through his teeth about anything and everything. The Dems, on the other hand, have to have at least the appearance of truthfulness. They have to be more subtle, more dignified, more moderate because that's how they see themselves, and how they think they should behave to win. Biden is doing exactly that by running on a platform of "a return to decency and dignity". He's already playing into Trump's hand - honestly, even Bernie falls prey to that perception sometimes; he's harsh on Trump, but he's been strangely soft on Biden.

The stains on Trump's record will hurt, sure, but not as much as Biden's, because the rules are not the same for the two camps. Trump was already a crass individual back in 2016, and Clinton tried to be more dignified and factual in her approach, but Trump won anyway (of course, the electoral college shit didn't help, but that's a topic for another time).

This is all unfair, no denying that... But it's the kind of corner the Dems have put themselves into and have a hard time coming out of, and the Republicans love it. "You go high, we go low".

it's not even about civility vs. crassness. i mean that trump can't convince a certain amount of people to vote for him. he has a ceiling, and the reason for that is there's a majority of people who can see his plain lies and obvious stupidity for what it is. we've had eight years of biden in the executive branch and four years of trump in the executive branch, and only one of them was mired in chaos and scandal on a daily basis. what kind of debate performance could possibly drag a majority of people over to his side? he'd have to actively win over new voters and he has not shown ability to do that in three years.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,142
Gaffes are only a killer for women and minorities.

Old white men? "He reminds me of grandpa so much!"

this so much. i bring up my dad a lot because i never expected him to say so out loud - but he did say 'i like 'uncle joe'' - and cited the instance where he asked chuck graham to stand up as a funny, relateable, and human moment. he's in his 60s, was a republican, is currently unaffiliated, and believes 'there's two stories to every side and the truth is somewhere in the middle' - something i actively oppose. and when i mentioned i was supporting warren, he expressed concern over democrats electing someone too far to the left.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
I always just figured people online are often assholes and since Bernie has the most fans online he also has more asshole fans?

Bernie's whole thing is fighting the establishment too so that likely pushes people to be more combative online. I don't think it's rocket science or anything.
To add, he is picking up marginalized, young, and desperate people too. For what reason does a well off person need to be angry and rude online in their hypothetical advocacy for a Biden, Hillary, or Bloomberg? Of course the generation that got fucked over on student loans is going to be more combative after seeing OWS, the Recession, the Tea Party, an impotent Obama second term and Trump.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
I feel that Bernie needs to adapt his messaging, which should be easier to do now that it's a two person race. He has his scripted lines that he repeats at all of his rallies, but he needs to start drawing more direct comparisons between himself and Biden. And now that he's no longer the frontrunner I expect him to be more aggressive as well. The next debate will be interesting (unfortunately it happens after Michigan).
The primary is over, Bernie knows it. Like 100% over. He is not going to try to tear Biden down.
 

TwoDelay

Member
Apr 6, 2018
1,326
"Mean"

It's the word Bernie supporters have chosen to minimize their toxic culture.

"Stop being mad about mean tweets there was a Nazi flag at Bernie's rally." Like we can't somehow talk about two different things.
The toxic culture of people on twitter being dicks, entirely unique to the jewish grandpa's fans
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,573
Also known as tone policing.
Hey, recognizing inherent flaws in your approach to discourse is hard for some people. The first step is admitting mistakes were made. Primary thread, and people engaged in turning away potential voters might come back to haunt a candidate. Doing more harm than good and all that. Or just keep spamming hateful rhetoric and emoji, whatever works to cement a look.
 

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,374
To add, he is picking up marginalized, young, and desperate people too. For what reason does a well off person need to be angry and rude online in their hypothetical advocacy for a Biden, Hillary, or Bloomberg? Of course the generation that got fucked over on student loans is going to be more combative after seeing OWS, the Recession, the Tea Party, an impotent Obama second term and Trump.
So absolutely no desperate or marginalized people are voting for Biden?
 

Jyester

Member
Oct 27, 2017
374
Re: debates.

Let's spin this around.

Bernie has a stump speech that he rarely deviates from in a debate setting.

He mansplained to Warren.

He projects as Angry Old Man.

He expresses irritation and annoyance easily (not good at hiding his emotions).

Is... this better than Biden? I mean, I'd probably say that they're equally bad for different reasons.
Why you would get bogged down in debate wonkery I find incomprehensible.

You have one candidate with a proven track record of fighting to improve people's wellbeing.

The other candidate voted for the Iraq war, a policy drafted by a cabinet that was demonstrably more evil and capable than Trump's, and was VP to a president who ordered more drone strikes than any of his predecessors. These were both murderous acts.

Biden is a bandage to stop the bleeding, but the American empire will keep on trucking. Sanders is the only candidate advocating for a course adjustment. That is the only thing that is relevant.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
Also known as tone policing.

The 'swarm': How a subset of Sanders supporters use hostile tactics to drown out critics
Nevada Union Says Sanders Supporters Harassed Members Over Medicare-For-All
A Daily Beast reporter was doxxed after publishing a story about Bernie Sanders' campaign staffer's harassing tweets

These stories are not about tone-policing, they're about hostility and actual harassment. Your dismissal/refusal to engage with the substance is pretty appalling, when you could just acknowledge that Bernie supporters have done some shit and move on.

Why you would get bogged down in debate wonkery I find incomprehensible.

You have one candidate with a proven track record of fighting to improve people's wellbeing.

The other candidate voted for the Iraq war, a policy drafted by a cabinet that was demonstrably more evil and capable than Trump's, and was VP to a president who ordered more drone strikes than any of his predecessors. These were both murderous acts.

Biden is a bandage to stop the bleeding, but the American empire will keep on trucking. Sanders is the only candidate advocating for a course adjustment. That is the only thing that is relevant.

I get where you're coming from, but this is arrogance. Bernie needed to broaden his coalition of voters, and acting as though he was absolutely unequivocally right doesn't win people over,without astute oratory skills and empathy.
 

TwoDelay

Member
Apr 6, 2018
1,326
Hey, recognizing inherent flaws in your approach to discourse is hard for some people. The first step is admitting mistakes were made.
Hey could you stop being so patronising. I'm sorry that people have been """"Toxic"""""" but I really don't care. The world is fucked and the the nominee for the supposed "Left" party got a F on his climate policy. I'm sorry that some people get angry but politics is messy.
 
Jun 20, 2019
2,638
The 'swarm': How a subset of Sanders supporters use hostile tactics to drown out critics
Nevada Union Says Sanders Supporters Harassed Members Over Medicare-For-All
A Daily Beast reporter was doxxed after publishing a story about Bernie Sanders' campaign staffer's harassing tweets

These stories are not about tone-policing, they're about hostility and actual harassment. Your dismissal/refusal to engage with the substance is pretty appalling, when you could just acknowledge that Bernie supporters have done some shit and move on.
Have I denied that?
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
The 'swarm': How a subset of Sanders supporters use hostile tactics to drown out critics
Nevada Union Says Sanders Supporters Harassed Members Over Medicare-For-All
A Daily Beast reporter was doxxed after publishing a story about Bernie Sanders' campaign staffer's harassing tweets

These stories are not about tone-policing, they're about hostility and actual harassment. Your dismissal/refusal to engage with the substance is pretty appalling, when you could just acknowledge that Bernie supporters have done some shit and move on.

the third story is particularly noteworthy cause it starts out due to the field director for Bernie's campaign harassing and mocking other candidates. Key point: this is someone from Bernie's campaign itself. Odds are they wouldn't have been fired if the spotlight wasn't placed on them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,573
Hey could you stop being so patronising. I'm sorry that people have been """"Toxic"""""" but I really don't care. The world is fucked and the the nominee for the supposed "Left" party got a F on his climate policy. I'm sorry that some people get angry but politics is messy.
We're not quite yet to the post mortem, but we're fast approaching. By all means, don't care about any of this.
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
2,626
it's not even about civility vs. crassness. i mean that trump can't convince a certain amount of people to vote for him. he has a ceiling, and the reason for that is there's a majority of people who can see his plain lies and obvious stupidity for what it is. we've had eight years of biden in the executive branch and four years of trump in the executive branch, and only one of them was mired in chaos and scandal on a daily basis. what kind of debate performance could possibly drag a majority of people over to his side? he'd have to actively win over new voters and he has not shown ability to do that in three years.

Ah, I see what you mean, thanks for the clarification.

Then the question becomes: what is Trump's ceiling? What is Biden's? Though I can make assumptions, I can't prove anything, but my impression is that, if anything, Trump's ceiling is higher than it was 4 years ago, on account of:
1) having a high approval rating coming out of the impeachment process
2) having the benefit of (the perception of) a good economy, on the back of low unemployment figures; it's bullshit of course, as you can't assess the health of a given economy based solely on one metric, but that's the perception
3) his style and his discourse are now normalized
4) IIRC - someone correct me if I'm wrong -, the turnout during the Republican primary has been exceptionally good

Also, we got caught up in talking about debate performances - my fault -, but it's not gonna be just about the debates. It's also gonna be about the interviews, the articles, etc. When it comes to that, I'm not sure how much outlets are gonna be willing to hit Biden on his health (it's a delicate topic to broach), but they will absolutely attack his record at the very least. There's plenty of ammo there. Even criticisms that would, in theory, only work against Sanders will be leveled against Biden. It's a tale older than me probably: Republicans will always smear their opponent as a socialist, no matter how moderate. It's hilarious to think of Biden as a socialist, but the criticism will be made regardless, and it will work on a segment of the electorate.

Let's be honest: no matter who goes up against Trump, the fight won't be easily won. We may disagree on who's best poised to win the GE - Bernie still seems like a safer bet than Biden to me, but who knows for sure -, but let's at least acknowledge the difficulty of the task ahead.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,068
Hey, recognizing inherent flaws in your approach to discourse is hard for some people. The first step is admitting mistakes were made. Primary thread, and people engaged in turning away potential voters might come back to haunt a candidate.

Biden has literally called people liars and has told them to vote for trump if they don't agree with him. 🤷‍♂️
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,537
User banned (1 week): ignoring the staff post with regards to hostility, sniping and metacommentary
The 'swarm': How a subset of Sanders supporters use hostile tactics to drown out critics
Nevada Union Says Sanders Supporters Harassed Members Over Medicare-For-All
A Daily Beast reporter was doxxed after publishing a story about Bernie Sanders' campaign staffer's harassing tweets

These stories are not about tone-policing, they're about hostility and actual harassment. Your dismissal/refusal to engage with the substance is pretty appalling, when you could just acknowledge that Bernie supporters have done some shit and move on.
What Wif are doing is gaslighting, plain and simple
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
Yeah, because Bernie was the only one with a Universal Healthcare plan.

And youre right people are rational actors who dont mind being harassed on their spaces and would definitely join the equivalent of glorified sports teams. People are definitely all perfect!

Are you under the impression I hate Bernie and his policies? As opposed to his garbage campaign??

Please get over your social ineptitude and understand that you cant garner voters when it looks like a large portion of your base goes scorched earth on people who strongly identify with a candidate in a primary where you elect a nominee in order to win a general election.

Sanders truly ran a bad campaign
I wasn't addressing you lol. I will concede Bernie's campaign could have been run better. Was it garbage though? He could be more savvy in his messaging, I think someone like AOC will do great at things Bernie fucked up on.
So absolutely no desperate or marginalized people are voting for Biden?
Naw didn't say that. I think this whole Bernie Bro thing is a Macguffin and beneath everyone's intelligence as a serious topic. If I were to entertain its validity for a second, my previous post was just explaining why. There's not much to be rude or excited about if you're motivated by "Not Trump" vs tackling every ill you've seen in the last 40 years in American society.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
2,471
User banned (1 week): Metacommentary. Ignoring staff post.
This thread got super toxic quick.

Extremely toxic. Not going to lie, I miss the halcyon days of a few weeks ago.

Now we've got the James Carvilles and Neera Tandens and pink nintendo mascots of era feeling vindicated and once again getting their candidate. The fact that it's Joe Biden makes it all the more terrifying. But hey, maybe this time will be different.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
So absolutely no desperate or marginalized people are voting for Biden?
Marginalized people were more likely to vote Biden. Better off people were more likely to vote Sanders.

Take a look (Let's be clear, there's no margin of error here, this is straight demographics vs vote location data):
Sanders best counties by income? The richest ones:
AloblqH.png
Sanders best counties by percent with health insurance? The ones most likely to have health insurance:
40QCgJg.png
Sanders best counties in college vs non-college? The most educated:
v6gI5Eg.png
Now, to preface, Bernie did very well with latin@ voters, and I really respect that. So, I'm not dismissing that by saying Biden actually did worse by the percentage of the white population in a county, the whitest counties that voted actually preferred Sanders:
SlQmO7r.png
www.npr.org

Biden Outperforming Sanders In Counties With Lower Incomes, More Voters Of Color

An NPR analysis of 1,200 counties across five key demographics offers a first look at how a diverse swath of the country is voting so far in the Democratic presidential primary race.

Bernie's best demographic is not the working class. That was Biden's best demographic. Bernie's best demo was college educated people that are financially secure that have healthcare.

Does this say anything about how good a candidate is? No. Bloomberg's vote was weighted working class and went down with better conditions, too.
 
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Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,958
Post mortem analysis with Warren senior aides and staffers.
Several weeks before the Iowa and New Hampshire elections, they discovered their fundraising projections for the fourth quarter of 2019 were far too rosy. The army of organizers they hired when fundraising and polling were at their peak — it ultimately ballooned to over 1,000 people — had become a straitjacket. Donations nosedived after an Oct. 15 debate, when Warren was bombarded by her rivals.
"They chose ... Bailey over 'blood and teeth,'" said one staffer, referring to Warren's golden retriever that the campaign made into an omnipresent prop to soften her image. "Unforgivable."
Nearly every staffer interviewed for this story said the campaign should have put out a health care plan months earlier than Warren did, given that primary voters consistently cite the issue as their biggest concern.

When Warren did finally come out with her health care plan, her attempt to thread the needle struck some as trying to have it both ways. Yes, she was for Medicare for All. But first, she said Congress should pass a public option, and then follow up by implementing full single-payer health care by the end of her first term.

Aides said it was a byproduct of the larger — ultimately losing — strategy of Warren pitching herself as a bridge candidate.

www.politico.com

‘Bailey’ vs. ‘blood and teeth’: The inside story of Elizabeth Warren’s collapse

Two dozen aides and allies let loose on what might have been.
 

Deleted member 60302

User requested account closure
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Sep 29, 2019
100
Naw didn't say that. I think this whole Bernie Bro thing is a Macguffin and beneath everyone's intelligence as a serious topic. If I were to entertain its validity for a second, my previous post was just explaining why. There's not much to be rude or excited about if you're motivated by "Not Trump" vs tackling every ill you've seen in the last 40 years in American society.
You are literally a Bernie Bro in rhetoric so Im not at all surprised.

And before you freak out and go "ARGH, I HAVE LEGITIMATE GRIEVANCES". No one is saying you dont so dont even bother posting a hyperbolized sensationalized "SO YOU DONT CARE ABOUT HEALTHCARE" post

Bernie is running for a primary in order to be recognized on a major national party so that he can have a chance at winning without splitting the general election vote as an independent. Whilst also getting DNC funding.
If your supporters are viewed as a massive turn off, you run on being a massive turnoff, and just declare yourself the peoples candidate drumming up massive turn out which seems to be quite the contrary. Then yeah, maybe you should actually think for 5 seconds about how to actually win an election instead of trying to brute force with 30 percent of the electorate.

The average person is not a rational actor, they hold many biases. The fact many of you didnt understand how negative interactions with his group could be at Bernie's detriment is hilarious and also quite sad.
 

Ablacious

Member
Dec 23, 2018
1,650
The core speech the night of Super Tuesday was built on getting the crowd to repeatedly boo Biden.



I don't share your optimism that he isn't going to try to tear Biden down.

Probably an aside but stating that you led the opposition to the Iraq war isn't really a bonus. Yes, we opposed it and goddamn it, Gore...argh, Nader. Blah blah. We protested in mass.
But it still happened. Bernie is inadvertently saying he failed as a leader. Isn't this like basic politicking?
 
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