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captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,062
Houston
User Banned (1 Week): Ignoring staff post; metacommentary.
They did.... whining, moaning, and bitching the ENTIRE way and creating an air of negativity around the whole thing.
People who can't take any blame for anything will always project blame onto someone else. At this point, based on the results of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, and Minnesota, it's not even evident that if Warren weren't in the race that her votes would have gone to Sanders, it's much more likely that they would have split, and in proportional delegate counts that might swing by 5, 10, 20 delegates total. People who want Sanders to win this primary need to wake up and realize that something is deeply wrong with their movement that almost every candidate that's dropped out of this race has felt alienated by the Sanders' camp. Now, I don't believe this is strictly Sanders' fault himself, I think he's trying to be a uniter to a degree, but I don't get why his supporters are working against him as strongly as they are. It's clearly not working and there needs to be some self-reflection, instead of incessant deflection and blame.
This is why I didn't want Bernie to run. And I said that as soon as the primary started, you can check my post history. Him and his fans are toxic.
giphy.gif



Yup, we Democrats need to unite. Anyone with a D next to their name is better than Trump.

I don't wanna hear this privileged bullshit that nothing changes if Trump wins again because thing sure as hell changed for minorities like myself when he won 2016. People lives are affected big time if Trump gets another 4 more years. We cannot afford to give him another 4 years because we are fighting among ourselves.
QFT.

I'll wait for them to restock Fruit Loops, and if they refuse to, then I don't go back. I say fuck cereal forever. If other people want to eat razor blades or Raisin Bran with razor blade sprinkles, that's on them.
Cool cool cool.so Supreme Court and down ballot stuff doesn't matter to you? Your a fraud.
 
Medical-related bankruptcies are the number one type of personal bankruptcy filing.

Moreover, a lot of them are insured.
I'm not arguing that single payer wouldn't be better. I have single-payer. But politics is the art of the possible, and there's far too much indicating that the median American voter would balk at M4A the second they learned the details. Not to mention, of course, that it would never pass Congress even if Bernie won the presidency.

The process of achieving truly universal coverage will have to involve gradually ratcheting it up, not one fell swoop.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
The very fact that Michael Bloomberg – a man whose economic and social policies make Hillary Clinton look like Bernie Sanders by comparison – was allowed to run on the Democratic ticket without any major pushback from the Party speaks volumes as to where the Democrats really are in terms of their current neoliberalist and corporatist ideology.

And the fact that he's now endorsing Biden should make Democrats shiver but clearly, America is a nation of both ultra-Right Wing evangelical fascists and a moderate party of corporate libertarians who – occasionally – get it right on social policy.

It is thoroughly depressing, especially when you go back to the beginning of the primary and consider the variety we had and yet we still managed to choose the crusty old centrist.
 

Jogi

Prophet of Regret
Member
Jul 4, 2018
5,484
So how much is the youth not turning out due to voter suppression bullshit? 2-3 hours to vote? Almost always in low income, minority and college areas? Not saying it would have been boosted Bernie, but come the fuck on. This shit is intentional since it HAPPENS EVERY ELECTION. The US does next to nothing to encourage higher turnout and it's legit depressing.
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,149
I saw yesterday that youth vote for the R primary was up. In a Primary. I guess at least the GOP isn't trying to tear down their next generation.
 

Tamanon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,775
So how much is the youth not turning out due to voter suppression bullshit? 2-3 hours to vote? Almost always in low income, minority and college areas? Not saying it would have been boosted Bernie, but come the fuck on. This shit is intentional since it HAPPENS EVERY ELECTION. The US does next to nothing to encourage higher turnout and it's legit depressing.

Meh....some is voter suppression, but every age group faces is. And many of the states had weeks of early voting (TX, NC, CA). Honestly, the suppression is equal on ages. Tilted on racial makeup.
 

Deleted member 2145

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
29,223
Honestly? Your views are not wrong, and this is the problem. This is the "return to normal," everyone. We're just going to roll the clock back to June 14th, 2015 and try to pause it there for four years.

For contrast, the guy now likely to win called Sanders' healthcare plans "pie in the sky" which included massive, comprehensive changes regarding care for people at home, which would be largely disabled individuals. We're ditching a guy with a plan to someone with no meaningful plan at all. As long as we're being honest that we're getting garbage, that's fine by me, but people on this forum are likely to handwave over this type of misery because we got rid of Orange Man, and I will not, for a single day, let that shit fly if I see it. This is specifically the shit we should be aiming for, and instead always settle for "next time." That just leads to normalizing it, and people wonder why the youth doesn't give a shit about politics. You keep telling them their pain and suffering has to be maintained, not managed. Red flags should be in everyone's head that the youngest find the most hope in the oldest man to ever run. Think of how much we, as a society, have absolutely failed here.

Biden marks, address that users post. Pull out the magic rabbit. This is precisely the violence and suffering we're comfortable with happening because we keep trying to define Trump as a disease, not a symptom. All of the pain we collectively create will exist, and in many respects, just be contained, but never attacked. We should all be absolutely fucking ashamed that the best answers we can give to post like this is "I'm sorry, and I hope the austerity isn't as bad as it can get."

We can beat Trump. Fine. But things will not get "better" and do not try to lie about it. We'll get another Trump soon, and a worse one, too.

well put
 

Jer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,226
Did you miss the part where Bernie was second in 75% of these states, and won the rest? Even after the relentless media attacks? Lets not act like he is some epic loser who did not win Iowa-Nevada-NH... jesus, what dimension did we enter just last week?

I mean, he was the clear front runner a week ago, who's now nearly out of contention because his supporters didn't bother to vote. Like sure, he's a stronger candidate than all the people who have already dropped out. There's nothing in the results we're seeing to suggest he's a stronger GE candidate than Biden, though, and that's all that matters at this point.
 

labx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,326
Medellín, Colombia
The American president doesn't have the power to automatically give all people healthcare. Things need to go through Congress, which is completely fucked up and run by conservatives who have redrawn election maps to ensure they stay in power.

Ok. Help me understand the US logic. Please. Because the congress is fucked up and rotten, people are willing to stop trying to make a difference, for once? I'm lost, Bernie Sanders, seems to this day and age, the one that can make a difference. USA to world, today, shockingly is still a beckon of hope. People is believe in the american dream, that if USA can make a difference, the world too. So to the world, we see Bernie Sanders as a change for once.
 

maxxpower

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,950
California
As someone with a child with health issues and people in my family with diabetes, medicare for all is desperately needed and I hope Biden does something to push us closer to that. I doubt it though.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
The very fact that Michael Bloomberg – a man whose economic and social policies make Hillary Clinton look like Bernie Sanders by comparison – was allowed to run on the Democratic ticket without any major pushback from the Party speaks volumes as to where the Democrats really are in terms of their current neoliberalist and corporatist ideology.

And the fact that he's now endorsing Biden should make Democrats shiver but clearly, America is a nation of both ultra-Right Wing evangelical fascists and a moderate party of corporate libertarians who – occasionally – get it right on social policy.

It is thoroughly depressing, especially when you go back to the beginning of the primary and consider the variety we had and yet we still managed to choose the crusty old centrist.
Yup!

It doesn't matter if you are DSA or Centrist. Bloomberg was 1000% unacceptable.
 

DrewFu

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Apr 19, 2018
10,360
ITT - Moderates don't win elections, and young GOP barely exist.

Christ, some of Era lives in a bubble.
 

SolidSnakeUS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,793
unless there is some big tectonic shift from now till next weeks primaries this race is over.
of the 36 states left in the primary Bernie only won 10 of them in 2016. Additionally I think he losses Michigan next tuesday.

Considering how things have changed since 2016 and from 2016 votes to the ones we have now, this can change entirely. But we'll see.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I swear to god, people in this forum need to get out of their bubbles
That is definitely wrong. Republicans indoctrinates its children early and hard so they will always be Republicans even if they want socialistic programs.
What I'm really saying is that the point where they become republicans instead of tuned out is usually a bit later than the young stage. At this point, the young republican vote is tinier than the young democratic vote. Is there data that proves otherwise?
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,098
So how much is the youth not turning out due to voter suppression bullshit? 2-3 hours to vote? Almost always in low income, minority and college areas? Not saying it would have been boosted Bernie, but come the fuck on. This shit is intentional since it HAPPENS EVERY ELECTION. The US does next to nothing to encourage higher turnout and it's legit depressing.

Didn't California and Texas have early voting for a few weeks though?

Not saying voter suppression isn't an issue because it clearly is but the two biggest states made it super easy to vote.
 

ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,300
Rochester, New York
The very fact that Michael Bloomberg – a man whose economic and social policies make Hillary Clinton look like Bernie Sanders by comparison – was allowed to run on the Democratic ticket without any major pushback from the Party speaks volumes as to where the Democrats really are in terms of their current neoliberalist and corporatist ideology.

And the fact that he's now endorsing Biden should make Democrats shiver but clearly, America is a nation of both ultra-Right Wing evangelical fascists and a moderate party of corporate libertarians who – occasionally – get it right on social policy.

It is thoroughly depressing, especially when you go back to the beginning of the primary and consider the variety we had and yet we still managed to choose the crusty old centrist.
Losing the primary and dropping out the day after the first primaries he was even on the ballot isn't "major pushback" by the party?

Seems like the party didn't like him at all and rejected him.
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,149
Only way Bernie wins now is if Biden makes a massive gaf soon that would cause older voters to shift. It's his. Best to just move on.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,745
The one consolation that I can take from this is that we are watching the end of the American empire in the funniest way possible. Like we are all fucking doomed, but watching the election come down to two incredibly senile old white men yelling at each other about nonsense is what the rotting corpse of the US truly deserves.

It's pretty poetic that the battle for America's soul is apparently two ancient out of touch white men battling for the privilege to fight a different ancient out of touch white man.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,326
"Bernie lost because media"
He has to contend with the media in the general.

"Bernie lost because of the DNC."
He has to contend with the RNC in the general.

"Bernie will increase turnout by bringing out the youth. Biden can't do that."
Turnout was up, youth turnout was down in the primaries. If he can't turnout his most fervent base now, what makes you think he can then. Moreover, if he can't win older voters, who turned out in greater number than last primary, then that's a problem.

Pretty much, the "revolution" never turned out at the ballot box. Furthermore, when he was the front runner Bernie's camp never shifted to take that mantle. There was nothing stopping his campaign to roll out endorsements and to start to negotiate positions for support etc. they sat on their hands and got outmaneuvered by Biden's camp in a day.

Was really hoping to not have to put my faith in Biden for the general but neither Warren nor Sanders had what it takes to win.
 

mztik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,296
Tokyo, Japan
Biden was the frontrunner for like 7 solid months, and yesterday's performance was pretty in line with how things looked those 7 months. People explored other candidates, but when those candidates burned out and had no path on Super Tuesday, they came home.

Biden led in California through basically all of 2019.

In polls. Bernie was the front runner in actual votes and delegates prior to yesterday. Biden was doing absolutely abysmal in the primaries prior to the moderate coalition.

Your second point is some absolute horseshit.

So Biden won't cater to the rich? Because I couldn't have said it more clear. There will be little to no change with Biden's government aside Trump not being in the chair. Sure, an improvement not having that orange idiot in command, but: the healthcare industry fucking the people won't change, climate/environment policies won't change much. Yes, absolute horseshit as you've said.

Didn't they know that coalitions are illegal in politics?

I didn't state or insinuate that it's illegal. More along the lines of trying to stop the boogieman at all costs. If US politics weren't focused on bipartisanship, then Bernie would've definitely not be on 'centrist corporate' party. His policies don't really align with the current Democratic party, so I do understand why the coalition happened. It just shitty, that's all. "That's politics, baby".. unfortunately, but it shouldn't be. Americans are too complacent to change.
 

Jersey_Tom

Banned
Dec 2, 2017
4,764
Rolling back Trump stuff won't require an act of Congress. And restoring dreamers won't either, though it'd be much better if it was enshrined in law.



The argument for the ACA being unconstitutional is that there's no longer a tax which is why it was originally ruled constitutional. Restore the tax and the case no longer exists.

Also, if you think a democratic Senate and House would vote for medicare and social security cuts that would murder them in their home seats... Well, it won't happen. On top of that, at absolute minimum we'd see Pelosi's prescription drug bill put up which would drastically reduce prescription drug prices.

Assuming we get the Senate and House. In case where we don't, pretty much everything is doomed no matter the President anyway.

For any meaningful and lasting effect on immigration, a bill is going to need to be passed. Stopping funding for the wall or going after ICE for instance isn't going to matter much four years from now. Neither will just rolling back travel bans or immigration bans. DACA and the like need to be firmed up, on the books laws. There's too much at stake for those people where having their futures hang at the whims of one person every four years isn't going to cut it.

And again, let's assume Pelosi's drug bill gets put up in a still Mitch McConnell run senate. We already have bills sitting on his desk that aren't being discussed that could help right now. What's Biden going to leverage to get him to even have it debated? "Sure, we'll give Medicare the ability to negotiate drug prices, but we want significant cuts to the overall budget." Nothing in Biden's resume says something like that would be a non-starter for him. And for the perception of a "win" it would certainly be within the realm of possibility for him.

The Supreme Court is not going to make a decision on the ACA case until June 2021 (Roberts knows that Trump would lose the election if they declared the ACA illegal). Biden will tell the DOJ to drop the case, which he absolutely can do.

As for immigration, there's a shitload that can be done via executive order, as Trump has proven.

The case is being brought up by the state of Texas. Even if Biden drops the DOJ's support, Texas and several other states who co-signed will still attempt to litigate this in the Supreme Court. Yes it won't be argued until the next session, but the point is even if Biden is elected and tries to restore aspects of the ACA there's no telling if it will even be around the entirety of his first term.

This is not something easily remedied in Biden's first term. Starting back in 2019, through an act of Congress, the individual mandate tax penalty was dissolved in its entirety. The executive does not have the power to solely introduce taxes on the American people. As such, Biden would have a deadline starting on January 20th running until whenever the court takes up arguments on the issue to get Congress to reauthorize the tax penalty. And again, with the very real potential of a Mitch McConnell-led Senate, all he has to do is just sit on that bill until the clock runs out.

Short of the Dems getting the House, Senate, and Presidency, or the Supreme Court voting against what its current makeup would suggest, the ACA is fucked and a President Biden and Co. will have to go back to the drawing board and all the talk of "expanding on what's there" would have been a lot of hot air for absolutely nothing.
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,149
Comments like this, and the general gloating in this thread, will only make Bernie's upcoming victories even sweeter.

I admire your optimism, it is the optimism I had in 2016, but I've learned that it is best to just move on. All indications are that it is over. Yes Bernie has will get more donation, but I don't see a current message that is going to shift anything. POSSIBLY Biden cratering in Michigan to the point that it makes dems be afraid for the rust belt in the general, but it isn't enough to get hope about.
 

Tawpgun

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
What I'm really saying is that the point where they become republicans instead of tuned out is usually a bit later than the young stage. At this point, the young republican vote is tinier than the young democratic vote. Is there data that proves otherwise?
I couldn't find any demographics based on a quick search but I will say this.

The internet is full of young trumpers. They find him funny. They love the memes. They love triggering libs. They are the ones that flock to Ben Shapiro and Crowder etc.

You'd think Trump would be boo'd on a college campus but he was celebrated at college football games.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,748
Is there a bunch of data as to the supposed big lack of enthusiasm for Biden I keep hearing about here or is it some social media bubble talk? I'm black and my family(the older portion) is enthusiastic as fuck for Biden. However they aren't stanning on Twitter or arguing on forums about it.
Obviously they aren't on Obama level enthusiasm but 100x more than for Hilary.
 
Jun 20, 2019
2,638
I'm still waiting to hear how Sanders getting more votes than 2016 in a more crowded field running against candidates with far lower unfavorables than in 2016 means he hasn't improved since 2016.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
Honest question, but why should a disabled person like me feel anything other than complete demoralization if this really does come down to a vote between Trump or Biden? I'm one cut away from being on the street and Biden is gunning just as hard to cut disabilities as much as Trump is. At least if Trump does it, you all will pretend to actually care about disabled folk for half a second and treat it like the evil that it is, while if Biden does it, you will find every excuse under the sun to justify it. You can go on and on about how I'm supporting Trump or am as evil as a republican for not wanting to give my vote of approval to the guy who gives as little of a fuck about the disabled as Trump, but it doesn't matter. Disabled folk are always on the chopping block and even after having 20-some freaking candidates to choose from, people continue to make it clear how little of a shit they give about the disabled by going with the guy who is actively trying to ruin what little support we have just as much as the republicans. It fucking sucked when we had to watch Obama try to throw us under the bus, and it's clear that even now that isn't going to change, regardless of who is in charge.

Yeah and it's fucking disgusting how those who are in most desperate need of help NOW are told to shut up by smug people whose lives won't be materially affected much, if at all, regardless of who wins the nomination or presidency.

the progress made will likely feel a lot like the interest you get on a checking account. tiny little bits of progress here and there but when you account for inflation we end up behind. it's just not enough and that's one of the many anecdotes that we'll continue to keep hearing.

Exactly.


Honestly? Your views are not wrong, and this is the problem. This is the "return to normal," everyone. We're just going to roll the clock back to June 14th, 2015 and try to pause it there for four years.

For contrast, the guy now likely to win called Sanders' healthcare plans "pie in the sky" which included massive, comprehensive changes regarding care for people at home, which would be largely disabled individuals. We're ditching a guy with a plan to someone with no meaningful plan at all. As long as we're being honest that we're getting garbage, that's fine by me, but people on this forum are likely to handwave over this type of misery because we got rid of Orange Man, and I will not, for a single day, let that shit fly if I see it. This is specifically the shit we should be aiming for, and instead always settle for "next time." That just leads to normalizing it, and people wonder why the youth doesn't give a shit about politics. You keep telling them their pain and suffering has to be maintained, not managed. Red flags should be in everyone's head that the youngest find the most hope in the oldest man to ever run. Think of how much we, as a society, have absolutely failed here.

Biden marks, address that users post. Pull out the magic rabbit. This is precisely the violence and suffering we're comfortable with happening because we keep trying to define Trump as a disease, not a symptom. All of the pain we collectively create will exist, and in many respects, just be contained, but never attacked. We should all be absolutely fucking ashamed that the best answers we can give to post like this is "I'm sorry, and I hope the austerity isn't as bad as it can get."

We can beat Trump. Fine. But things will not get "better" and do not try to lie about it. We'll get another Trump soon, and a worse one, too.


The magic rabbit is "but kids in cages!".

The kids in the cages built by the previous administration.

The cages that will be used to house even more kids under a dem president 15-20 years from now when climate change means thousands of climate refugees are heading north to the Mexican borders only when that happens suddenly they'll find some way to justify it because it's 'our' team locking them up.
 
Short of the Dems getting the House, Senate, and Presidency, or the Supreme Court voting against what its current makeup would suggest, the ACA is fucked and a President Biden and Co. will have to go back to the drawing board and all the talk of "expanding on what's there" would have been a lot of hot air for absolutely nothing.
Roberts has saved the ACA twice before, both times while a Democrat was in office. Why would he decide to do something differently now?
 
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