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Democratic Presidential Primaries & Caucuses |March OT| Last Tuesday was 1000 years ago, old news no one cares about (Discussion Guidelines in OP)
- Thread starter Poodlestrike
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That's good when it comes to Bloomberg using his personal wealth to buy an election, but Bernie relied on grassroots movements and a whole lot of individual support, so for him it's not so much the money as the people behind that money.
But I need to vote for my magic progressive wizard! Who cares if he has no actual support in Congress and would essentially govern entirely by easily-destroyed executive orders? He's the only one we need! Nobody else matters! You don't need a coalition and you certainly don't need to ensure your legislation has enough of a foundation to stand for more than four years!
I've been really sick the last few days, so while I'm thrilled to see Dem turnout so good what on earth is driving this surge in voters for BIDEN of all folks? I saw the people who dropped out and endorsed him, but this still seems really weird, did I miss something or what?
Exactly where I'm at. Biden is....not great for a large number of reasons previously discussed, but I'd vote for anyone over Trump, especially when you factor in Supreme Court picks and all of the other things that come along with it. That said that I have little hope for the future when it's an absolute struggle to try to even claw our way back to the status quo which was garbage and completely ignores massive problems with racial and wealth inequality, healthcare, etc. Trump getting elected + global warming speeding up was the final straw in me deciding to not have kids. I'm not diehard Bernie supporter or anything so this doesn't have anything to do with him specifically not getting the nom, but I honestly feel that we're generally just going down a path that we will not come back from, or by the time we do it won't be enough or in time.
Exactly where I'm at. Biden is....not great for a large number of reasons previously discussed, but I'd vote for anyone over Trump, especially when you factor in Supreme Court picks and all of the other things that come along with it. That said that I have little hope for the future when it's an absolute struggle to try to even claw our way back to the status quo which was garbage and completely ignores massive problems with racial and wealth inequality, healthcare, etc. Trump getting elected + global warming speeding up was the final straw in me deciding to not have kids. I'm not diehard Bernie supporter or anything so this doesn't have anything to do with him specifically not getting the nom, but I honestly feel that we're generally just going down a path that we will not come back from, or by the time we do it won't be enough or in time.
Biden (2020 version) sucks.
It just means that Bernie isn't a particularly great candidate, or at the very least his idea of an ideal US doesn't resonate with older, AA voters... Who *always" choose the Democratic nominee.
Why are people voting for Biden? Do they just want everything to stay the same? What is it about the progressive candidates that aren't resonating with people? Why isn't Warren the front-runner 😭😭😭
You can't move the country or a party with just a President at the top. It doesn't work like that. Change in a country the size of the US with such divisiveness between areas takes time. But we have made progress. You want more progressive policies? Then elect more people through out the country who share those values? A token socialist at the top while the rest of the party is no where near him in regards to most policies is fucking stupid.
I mean 12 years ago M4A would have get you laughed out of the fucking room, and now its a central issue of campaigns.
This is so disheartening.... I have so many friends who did SO much for this campaign here and we got crushed.
Wow. There is no way around it, Biden is having just about the best night possible.
Well, at least a contested convention could very well be avoided now.
Well, at least a contested convention could very well be avoided now.
I don't know which debate you watched, because the one I saw didn't have a wide shot of every candidate's faces when Bernie said that.
That would be my hope as well. I wanted Warren as president but I feel that she still has a lot to offer in the VP role and makes a possible 2024 President run more viable.
I am a Clinton to Sanders voter in TX. You just can't excuse a shellacking like tonight. Bernie's message just did not resonate across the electorate. He did push some things to the left, which is great. But when the base you've been hyping for years doesn't materialize, that's it. It's over.
No rigging. No conspiracy. Just a straight up L.
No rigging. No conspiracy. Just a straight up L.
There's these two tiny states called Texas and California. Sanders is winning Texas and will most likely win California.
Boomer dems were never voting for a socialist and young dems didn't vote. It's not hard to figure out why Biden is surging.
biden isn't underwater in likablity like hilary was. especially in the midwest/pa. i think he'll do fine enough to edge out a victory.
Thank you. Plus the crazy obsession with these 4-year Presidential cycles is really harmful. Vote locally. Vote for state elections. Continue to press on.
RBG being replaced by Garland would be bullshit actually, because Garland is a centrist pick (a good dude and all, and he should be on the court right now, but he was a compromise pick by Obama for a hostile Republican congress, a moderate centrist fair judge who nonetheless would have been a huge swing from far right prick Scalia). He's also not all that young, he's nearly 70 now. You should be nominating people you hope will be on the court for 30+ years.
RBG should be replaced by a young liberal, one like herself. And she will be, too if Biden wins. If you actually think Biden, assuming the Dems have the Senate, would nominate anyone other than young liberal justices to the SC, you're completely disconnected from reality.
This punishes the people suffering more than the party tbqh.
...but isn't that exactly what most of us wanted? People have been bitching and moaning about Bloomberg buying an election, now when it looks like it's the people, not the money, people aren't okay with that either?
It can not be said enough. People are underestimating just how much this was a problem and has hurt him. You can't go around demonizing anyone and everyone that doesn't fall in line. You can't call everyone establishment as a slur and expect other people to fall in line and join you!!! Fuck that!
Bernie's problem has always been him and how he delivers his message not the ultimate message at the end or the ideas. Questioning how you get them is fine but no one hated the ideas I feel. It's why people supported Warren. They wanted the same thing but she was a much more favorable messenger. Sadly she could not and didn't take that advantage of that and decided to play this stupid truce thing wtih Sanders instead of driving home the point she was a better messenger and wasn't demonizing people left and right.
No, not even a little bit math doesn't work that way. Stop blaming Warren's for Sanders weakness! It's gross as fuck.
I don't want to take away from an otherwise great post, but I fundamentally disagree with this premise. I can't say I share the same optimism for the scenario you presented, both as an American, a minority, someone with health issues and a liberal. I will hold my nose and vote for Biden as I did with HIllary if Bernie isn't the candidate, although I always believed that it was going to be a long shot.
The perfect start for my argument is the scenario of a Biden administration. There would be some immediate benefits, including a rollback of the most egregious policies pushed by the Trump administration. The ones that I can openly agree with are the change in Border Patrol directives (although Biden still leaves in place a horrible organization), immigration bans, and I can somewhat concede bureaucratic changes in the EPA, Department of Education, State, Defense, etc. The problem starting with all of these things is that a return back to the end of 2016 is not a great point to start. Many of the same issues Obama left behind are still there, including a healthcare system teteering on irrelevancy from the SCOTUS, a tax system that benefits the wealthy, large portions of the country barely doing okay and staying above water, a middling foreign policy legacy now in rubble under Trump, political and social division, crumbling infrastructure, a vulnerable elections system ripe for future manipulation by foreign powers, and a litany of other issues. None of these things are anything to be optimistic about, and those shortcomings that persisted under Obama only worsened the reaction that created Trump. Its the prime reason I have no confidence in your next statement, that Biden will give us "the gift of time."
People are being either overly optimistic or naive if they believe the white supremacy or populism of Trump will leave after he loses in 2020, if that happens. While the Democratic Party were losing left and right under Obama, the Republican Party had a resurgence and got numerous governors, local officials, and members of Congress elected. The rather poor field of 2016 and the moderate recovery we had for the 2020 Democratic primary was because of how decimated we were under Obama. Under Biden, we will have young, "well-spoken", White male, Ivy league educated, and military veterans looking to attack an old Biden in 2024. These include Tom Cotton, Todd Young, Josh Hawley, James Lankford, Ben Sasse, and a litany of other Republican governors who will run a hard campaign both bringing the tenets of Trump with a smoother dog whistle. The reason why I am rather pessimistic is that your argument only matters if we maximize time. Biden is not going to push for sweeping changes that will disrupt the status quo on banking, taxation, health care, education, the environment, or other issues that Bernie pushed for. Granted, it didn't mean that Bernie was going to be successful in pushing legislation, but he would have maximized his time to use his powers as President, the same way Bush, Obama and Trump pushed the envelope of the Executive Branch. Neither Bernie nor Biden will have a second term, and we need to maximize that time with someone who will push the margins of the Presidency to the left while we have time to. The only immediately and uncontested benefit of a Biden Administration will be the likely two open SCOTUS seats that can open up. That is the only reason I'm even bothering with Biden.
The two years of Obama-era immigration policy ultimately didn't matter because Trump was able to largely do away with it, and push the template for his now right-wing Border Patrol agency. To say nothing of his mass deportation that tore families apart, including several that I knew of personally. I don't want another Biden to simply pull the margins back to the center for another Republican to pull it further and further right. Obama had his barriers and shortcomings, but one of his biggest failings was not maximizing the Executive Branch to push the envelope to the left. We are not going to build up our immigration system or civil service in two years without a dramatic vision and an aggressive will to pull things around. I don't have any faith in Biden doing that. Two more years of the ACA will be lifesaving for millions like myself who need it, but will still leave a fundamentally vulnerable and flawed healthcare system that has been successfully clipped by Republicans, the SCOTUS and lower courts. Biden is not going to push for something more dramatic, like an actual replacement of the whole damn bill and a further conversation about how all these measure are taping over a broken system. Why would I ever be enthusiastic about a system like that? Why would I ever have hope in a future like that? Democrats are the only sensible players in town, but they only succeed in pulling us to the center on most issues, for an inevitable Republican to pull us further to the right than we did before. Smashing what limited progress we made in the first place. If the United States is a person drowning beneath water, Republicans are pulling us further beneath the water, and Democrats are making limited pushes to the surface, but will never get us above the water. This is not a "both sides" justification, but we have to admit that too many institutions are broken in this nation, and incrementalism isn't working in our favor as a nation and as a people.
The added slap in the face is toward your point on activist communities. I worked for several, and its often extremely difficult to get people to be motivated in a system that they believe will always weigh against them. Biden would be a better alternative, but many of us are already wary of a 2024 resurgent Republican that now has the Trump mantra with him. He's going to change the party in the same way that we saw with Reagan, and many of us have no optimism to continue preserving the same foundation that often left us in the gutter in the first place. It's a big reason behind why socialism is "en vogue" with so many young people. The Democratic Party is facing a major issue over its identity, and I don't know if those issues are going to be placated with a contentious convention and the possibility of a Biden Administration. I'm going to guess that many of these people are again going to be left disappointed, and feeling as if their voices aren't being recognized and implemented. I don't even want to see a party if we lose again this November. We will still have the resources toward building coalitions for a more progressive agenda, but the continual barriers and intersections of Wall Street, class, region, race, government and other variables will continue to be walls. I'm going to be afraid that younger people in future years will be less willing to work within the system instead of just tearing the whole thing down.
Your final point is well-taken, and I agree with it. Our job is never done, but we also didn't leave a strong foundation for our work to endure and continue. We did a terrible job of making sure our policies and agenda would show to be beneficial to many people who suffered and were fed up. A Biden Administration doesn't buy us time. Not in this political climate. It just kicks a can down the road toward our court, a slight respite from sinking further into the abyss but not a future.
Yeah I can't imagine Joe will be healthy enough to go two terms with the kind of stress the job demands. A Warren second term would be fantastic.
Yeah and Texas is now too close to call...meaning even if he wins the delegates will be pretty evenly split...
Ok.
Don't know what you are trying to argue here, but my point that Dem voters don't want like being held accountable for their shit politics still stands.
Say whatever you want about Carville but when he said the majority of the Democratic party didn't want Bernie its looking like he was 100% right.
Ah, the ol "certainly we'll all burn it to the ground if that happens!"
News flash, it's happening right now, and the only people that would be capable of this "upheaval" won't even come out to vote for Bernie, lmao
But sure the next time the government is super duper out of touch (as if it wasn't right now at this very moment), surely people will rise up then, for realsies.
You mean the 2017 Ryan House and McConnell Senate? What exactly can you do when you don't have the votes, besides yell as loud as you can? Trump is STILL refusing to release aid.
House dems have over 300 bills waiting for McConnell to do something with.
GOP obstruction and general malfeasance seems to be working well on you. They're gonna keep voting and showing up. Just something to keep in mind before taking your ball and going home.
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Man. Usually I love being right. Not so much here.
For whatever it's worth, I think it's a little more complex than media interests being aligned behind him for ideological reasons. Not like Biden hasn't been taking body blows from them for ages. I think it's just that he had a spike in positive coverage right when he needed to. That's all to say, I think that regardless of how this shakes out, Bernie's done a lot of important work laying groundwork for the next progressive standardbearer. Work's not over, and the dynamic in this primary is unique in a lot of ways.
Here's the thing though. You're settling. A lot of people chose to sit out of big movements because of this. They think they can settle for how things are. You can/need to demand better.
Bloomberg basically flooded the airwaves completely and utterly unopposed.
I gotcha. Biden certainly didn't work to earn it. You could at least say Hillary did, but Biden's winning states Hillary couldn't touch right now while getting dragged down by Bloomer. Shows what a difference just having a dick makes.
You do realize state lines are arbitrary in the context of measuring the US population as a whole, right? And that considering the arbitrary nature by which they were drawn, there's no real reason NY should "dictate" less than, say, the massive collection of smaller NE states just north of it. State borders weren't drawn to be fair. The initial borders were drawn to encapsulate colonies and ensure support from all different settlement cultures, cultural boundaries that have long since changed and dissipated with the mass migration to centralized hubs. States would not have been drawn the same if they were drawn on a modern population map.
The only reason you can say this about CA and NY is because they are coastal cities with multiple successful population centers. You know... places people want to live. If anything, states with high populations have done something right, and listening to them might prove somewhat helpful...
The only reason we can't use your same asinine logic to benefit Democrats is because the empty states republicans have doubled down are so much smaller than CA that more than one state (beyond Texas) has to be listed. The Republican strategy is to secure these empty states, which is smart from a strategic perspective (due to the electoral collage), but is infinitely stupid from a governance perspective (as more and more actual people's needs are dictated by a minority who does not understand or is actively hostile to them)
Although, we could simply say "if you took out the Bible belt" or "if you took out Evangelicals", because, as mentioned above, state lines are just as arbitrary to this measurement, and surely Evangelicals and the Bible belt "should dictate very little".
It's an accident of history that specific populations are spread across multiple smaller states, so it's not as easy to invalidate them with a buzz phrase as you do to Californians. Never-the-less, Californians and New Yorkers are still very much Americans, and do not deserve to be removed from counts of US population by you or others any more than people of a specific race, religion, gender, etc should
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