-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Democratic Presidential Primaries & Caucuses |March OT| Last Tuesday was 1000 years ago, old news no one cares about (Discussion Guidelines in OP)
- Thread starter Poodlestrike
- Start date
- Status
Because 1) they have proven to be able to successfully build a campaign infrastructure that can then be used in the general election and 2) shown that they are able to excite and mobilize the base.
It's not a perfect measurement on who is most electable in a general election but it's the best we have.
I absolutely did not say that. At all. I said that his comment could be interpreted as talking about South Carolina or other places. I absolutely did not say this. Your distortions are getting really frustrating.
Now you're just changing the subject to another set of remarks. If you wanted to talk about those comments, we could. But that doesn't make anything you said about his point re: working class voters true. At all.
I recall this was a serious take people had in 2016. "Actually because of demo changes, GOP would struggle to win future elections". And then Hillary lost.
Yes, I mean we haven't even gotten results yet and I'm already wondering what the answer to this would be if he loses the primary.
Amen. This never not gives me goosebumps. To quote a certain bearded individual and his likewise-bearded companion: The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.
They're not being tricked but voters are definitely being boarded/directed like cattle to Biden. That's what Pete Beto and Amy's endorsements are meant to do
Isn't the message of recent elections (and opinion polls, for that matter) that the primary "infrastructure" doesn't really mean that much?
But that's not what winning a primary means. Just because you've won a primary doesn't mean your base is excited and mobilized. They could be deeply divided and bruised after a fractious primary or voting for you reluctantly.
Is it though? There are other ways of measuring this
biden doesn't do either yet he's gonna be the nominee. and there's that other fun thought: biden is probably gonna have to rely on bloomberg for campaign infrastructure. i woudn't be surprised if he gets in on a biden cabinet as well. 2020 is really gonna be the race of the billionaires.
I remember post-2012 the GOP was having a huge internal debate about whether they moderate themselves to try and catch some of the younger and minority vote or whether they become more conservative to get more white voters. And everyone, myself included, widely mocked the latter plan as delusional and that there is no reason to think that white voters are waiting for the GOP to become more racist and backwards.
But then Trump won 2016, so fuck us I guess.
Biden is rising. But Sanders has a hidden edge today.
Bernie Sanders could receive a big boost today from a powerful demographic dynamic, even as more party leaders consolidate to resist his candidacy.
I highly encourage y'all to read this article about Bernie's advantages going into Super Tuesday.
Its important to remember that Trump tied a lot of his racist rhetoric and promises in a lot of promises and policies that made intuitive sense even if you weren't a full on Confederate flag waving racist. Him wanting to built a border wall, start a trade war with China and rip apart NAFTA all made intuitive sense if you didn't know a whole lot about the situation. It was a bit different to other Republicans who had a bit of a technocratic edge.
Not to mention that Clinton didn't even really bother combating these things. Someone looked at the online ads used during the 2016 election and they found the Democrats used mostly anti-Trump while Trump had a good number non-Clinton related ads that talked about his promises to fuck the current world order. Times were already pretty bad for the poor in 2016 so when a brick is offering himself to you, it isn't too surprising in hindsight that said people chose the brick.
they'll blame it everyone else then convince people to vote for "someone who can win" like Beto or Buttigieg
I'm well aware of the extenuating circumstances of Trump's win. It's just a strange memory that I had concerning the reliance on demographic changes to predict voting patterns.
While Warren then Bernie were my choices, it just makes me so sad that there seems to be no passion for people that want Joe to win rather they just want Bernie to lose. It really bums me out
Yeah, maybe. At the same time though it's how the medias been acting too. 'Sanders only got X of the vote but these three together got Y of the vote!'.
It's all been a gloomy forecast for me. I'll keep voting blue, but my spirit is crushed
I mean both Biden winning and losing would be bad for the US and the world. If Biden wins that´ll kill the chance for a progressive Dem candidate for years to come. If he loses it´s another 4 years of Trump.
While I agree that they'll paint every Democratic candidate as a socialist, it'll be particularly effective against Sanders because he will proudly embrace the label. And that's not a problem for him, but it IS a problem for every candidate down ballot in a red or purple state. I don't think it'd be impossible for Bernie to win, but I do think we should exercise caution when giving Republicans exactly what they want. I don't know how worried they'd be if Sanders becomes President since I imagine they'll have a better chance of retaining the Senate and perhaps picking up seats in the House. I do not agree that Sanders has the best policy on trade. We need to move more towards globalization, even if that goes against the current nationalist mood. I also disagree that Trump can't use his outsider image against Bernie. Bernie actually knows how the government works. Trump thinks he can just do whatever he wants. There's nothing more "outsider" than someone who is literally clueless.
In regards to your points:
1. Voting for NAFTA shouldn't be a negative, but it probably will be. The USMCA is basically NAFTA but I'm sure has a lot more support in the midwest because it has a shiny new coat or whatever.
2. There's an assumption that Bernie will get exactly Biden's coalition plus the youth vote. I think that's optimistic. Just because Biden supporters aren't online 24/7 sharing memes about politics does not mean that they're less enthusiastic about voting for him over Sanders. I feel very strongly that Sanders will lose at least some significant percentage of older voters, black voters, and more conservative Democratic voters. In addition, we know how unreliable the youth vote is.
3. and 4. aren't too significant imo. Biden has consistently shown to have strong support among the older population in the primaries. And the debate thing is overblown. Biden did fine in the VP debates. But it won't really matter, because Trump will just mock Biden's stutter or talk about Sanders' "rape essay."
I agree that Sanders will be more vocal about enacting positive change, but I am not quite convinced how effective it will be. Sanders has been yelling about doing this and that for the past few months. What has Biden been vocal about? Not much, but within 48 hours, basically the entire party was making a mad dash to endorse him. It could just be a coincidence and he could be super lucky, but I'm going to guess he has at least some ability to convince others to do something mutually beneficial.
For foreign policy, Sanders is probably better in that particular aspect. I think he would be forced to do things that he'll get chastised over, though. I do think we should just get the hell out of a lot of these countries and drastically tone down our spending on the military, which Sanders is most likely to do.
I'll hit the polling place between classes tomorrow. Had to put a pause on my homework to do my research and I don't know if I've got the wherewithal to finish, but no ragrets.
Why would it kill the chance for a further leftwards shift?
Feels like it'd be easier to talk about further progressive change with a Democrat in office, as opposed to just running against the GOP and where they've headed.
Yeah, this is truly sad. If Bernie was being defeated by another ideologically driven movement, I'd definitely be more hopeful than I am by the Biden surge, which largely seems to be powered by fear.
An 84 year old man is not sitting in the oval office in 2025 as a new president :P
Because it would be a massive win for the Democratic establishment. And you better believe these people would instrumentalize a Biden win against any progressive ambitions inside the democratic party. I mean we´re seeing it right now with the "Bernie can´t win because he´s a socialist!" mantra.
This is an incredibly good article that basically states:Biden is rising. But Sanders has a hidden edge today.
Bernie Sanders could receive a big boost today from a powerful demographic dynamic, even as more party leaders consolidate to resist his candidacy.www.cnn.com
I highly encourage y'all to read this article about Bernie's advantages going into Super Tuesday.
Bernie's coalition is going to come through big in TX and CA. Latinos are much more populous this year in their voting which people are underestimating.
Here is what you said:
How am I supposed to KNOW something is untrue if it is unclear? How can I knowingly distort and misrepresent something if I'm misinterpreting it?
And the other set of remarks are relevant because everyone makes mistakes, like you said. When it becomes a pattern, then you start looking at it in a different light.
What are you talking about? I said he clearly could be referring to either of those things. Not that his comments were clear and couldn't be interpreted multiple ways. I said they clearly could be interpreted in multiple ways. But, crucially: neither interpretation supports what you said. At all. Even if he mistakenly said he won the working class in South Carolina, that doesn't mean he thinks black people in SC aren't working class. And really, you know he didn't say that. And you know he doesn't believe that. There are a lot of valid criticisms of Sanders. But this is just a ridiculous, cynical smear.
User Banned (July 22nd): Repeatedly violating the Primary OT Staff Post
The left's fatalism is something to behold. Having being utterly annihilated in so many parts of the world, you truly love to see the doom set in so fast. Such a weak, mentally fragile movement. Let's go Joe!
The post-Bush era -- culminating in two wars and a global fucking economic collapse -- should have been a slam dunk for Democrats for decades.
Bottom line... what did we get out of it? Two years of meek moderate control, two Supreme Court Justices (liberal replacees sadly unable to prevent Citizens United), and a short-lived mandated corporate healthcare policy.
A blip that will now most likely be followed by at least 14* years of McConnell and Trump (god forbids what happens during Trump's second term*) that overturned almost every conceivable skerrick of Obama's middling progress, a new generation brainwashed by disinformation and xenophobia, and institutions and courts increasingly stacked with corporate rats and right-wing hacks.
A fucking disaster.
The country is on fire in every sense. Who are these people in control right now who think Biden is the answer to any of this? If they do have good intentions, they are actually insane.
Bottom line... what did we get out of it? Two years of meek moderate control, two Supreme Court Justices (liberal replacees sadly unable to prevent Citizens United), and a short-lived mandated corporate healthcare policy.
A blip that will now most likely be followed by at least 14* years of McConnell and Trump (god forbids what happens during Trump's second term*) that overturned almost every conceivable skerrick of Obama's middling progress, a new generation brainwashed by disinformation and xenophobia, and institutions and courts increasingly stacked with corporate rats and right-wing hacks.
A fucking disaster.
The country is on fire in every sense. Who are these people in control right now who think Biden is the answer to any of this? If they do have good intentions, they are actually insane.
They want a return to normalcy. Basically, can't do too much to rock the boat. Who cares about policy to them, it's about removing Trump. short term over the long term.
I mean most people seem to view Obama fairly favourably, a lot of Americans just do want to return to that comfort. So if that's true, then most of them were doing pretty fine. I think the whole Bernie working class thing is vastly overrated in that case, there is no real groundswell of anger. If that was true, he would have defacto swept the primaries. You can't blame the electorate for doing what they think is best.
You're misinterpreting my post. I didn't say that Sanders said black people in SC aren't working class. I said that he didn't include them in the "real" working class. When populists talk about the "working class," they very often actually mean the WHITE working class. All things considered, Sanders has not earned the benefit of a doubt from me on what he meant by his quote. He has a way of completely ignoring any person or group that doesn't fully support him or fit his narrative. I mean, hell, he also just recently waved away complaints of the toxicity from his supporters as coming from Russian bots.
Dude, thanks for recommending me this. Great song. Going to explore the artist more!
No, I understood perfectly well. You're trying to make the ridiculous argument that Sanders only views the white working class as the real working class and I'm saying that you cannot take that message in any way from that quote. It forms no part of what he said. I think your statement that you really don't know what he meant when he said it speaks for itself. There are plenty of legitimate critiques to be made of Sanders and his campaign but this kind of deliberate stretching and recasting of words to cast him in the worst possible light is transparent as hell.
Well, they do keep trying to same thing over and over again hoping for different results. I'm not sure how Obama happened to them. Got real lucky.
The doom of people not being able to afford their medications and dying.
He was very charismatic, GWB was very unpopular and a big screw up, the biggest economic crash since the 1930s, also McCain was a big old weirdo who choked and picked Palin back when that stuff mattered.
- Status