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Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,932
This still doesn't answer my question, though. If Biden is just as right wing as Trump and criminalizes Blacks more than he does, as you said, then why does the AA community overwhelmingly want Trump kicked out in favor of Biden?
There is a (IMO) misguided view amongst a lot of Americans that a return to the status quo will fix everything.

Rather than risk things continuing to get worse for four years they'd rather things go back to when they were a bit less bad for four years. (And then get way worse again)
 

Kusagari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,382
It's been reported Pete and Biden haven't even really spoken yet. The endorsement is 100% coming. Maybe as soon as tomorrow.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
Can someone explain to me what happens to Buttigieg's delegates now? Does he choose who to appoint them or what?
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,225
There's this one young lady in the Bronx who has managed to establish brand power on par with Bernie Sanders before her 30th birthday.

Not saying, just saying.

Positive brand power for progressives. Negative, radioactive brand power for social conservatives and Republicans.

The Republicans hate Hillary but woo boy that seems quaint compared to how much they hate AOC.
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,796
There is a (IMO) misguided view amongst a lot of Americans that a return to the status quo will fix everything.

Rather than risk things continuing to get worse for four years they'd rather things go back to when they were a bit less bad for four years. (And then get way worse again)
Right, but that poster's argument was that Biden is just as right wing (AKA bad) as Trump. And I'm trying to make sense of how that makes sense, at all.

I'm not saying that Biden isn't flawed - he most definitely is.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
If Bernie gets the nomination and won the Presidency, he would be the new leader and face of the Party, and I think it would be a major shift in American Politics - for the better.

The fact that a bunch of 50 and 60 year olds who are afraid of M4A would prefer Trump to a "socialist" is why we can't have nice things in this country.

Old people on the right vote for Trump. Old people on the left vote for the most Trump-like person they can find that's not Trump.

It's not until 20 years from now, when that entire worthless generation is dust that things might finally start to improve. Sorry not sorry.
I'll be honest, I'm not even convinced that Bernie winning is the best thing for the progressive movement. If he won the Presidency I do think it'd be great, he'd hopefully have a much better and humane foreign policy which would save thousands, hundreds of thousands of lives abroad and that does mean something to me and I do think he'd try and get legislation passed that was better than what we have now, I don't think he'd be a worse President than Biden or someone else.

But, him squeaking in a win against Trump without actually having a super-majority, not really passing any of his meaningful ideas and even if they were passed not really kicking in time to influence the midterms, if we thought the blacklash to Obama was bad I imagine the backlash to failed "Socialism" will be equally harsh if not harsher. If Sanders wins it wouldn't be entirely on his merits, it'd be because many people sat out the election and didn't think he'd win or whatnot, I expect them to show up in 2022. Even barring that, him running for a second term's of course in the air due to his age, him completing a second term's of course also in the air.

Basically, as big of a deal as winning would be for the Progressive movement I think winning and not being able to actually deliver anything of substance would be an equally bad deal. Right now Progressivism is like Schrodinger's Box, the possibilities of it are endless, we can end homelessness, solve hunger, provide free college to everyone, free healthcare, save the planet and the only thing stopping us is the Democratic establishment but the minute this box is opened and it's contents are run through real US political constraints, whether that be actual votes in Congress, Supreme Court challenges, it's going to come out and the reality is going to be a lot less exciting. Sanders represents a dream and if he can't live up to those lofty goals I worry that'd hurt us even more than his dream just remaining a dream.

'Course, so much is up to fate, FDR wouldn't have been able to do what he did if not for the Great Depression and maybe some external factor would allow a President Sanders to do equally bold things. I don't know.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,254
And what does Pete dropping out mean for Bernie?

Am I wholly wrong in assuming that this feels like a concerted effort to stop Bernie?

Pete thinks it's Bad News For Bernie, various polls show a variety of Ways It Is For Bernie ranging from Very Good For Bernie, Very Bad For Bernie, and Not Really Effecting Bernie
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Smh.. nvm I made a mistake responding to you.

There is a massive difference between back room deals where Pete is given a cabinet seat if Biden becomes the nominee

vs.

Pete being forced out of the race for the benefit of Biden, which is what being "coerced" means, an unwilling person doing something via threats of another party.

Words matter when describing situations.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
so we should pick someone that we know is unable, because other people might be unable too? that's nonsensical.

in the case of warren, for example, it's very likely that she could use her extensive knowledge of policy to put in numerous provisions that seem like innocent asks but are actually deeply consequential. you can make the other side feel like they're getting a better deal than they are, if you're good about it.

with sanders, we do actually have examples with him (the mccain-sanders veteran's bill) that indicate he knows how to cut deals. it's generally pretty widely regarded as a compromise that was like... good. both teams played hard, and both sides ultimately got something they wanted.

are either of these things going to happen? fuck if I know, I can't see the future. but there's at least an argument to be made that they might. with biden, we know he's an absolutely terrible negotiator who will cave and offer just about everything. we have reams of evidence. hell, we have harry reid literally asking the white house to not let joe biden talk to mitch mcconnell anymore, because he's fucking them:



"other people might be shit too" doesn't somehow make the argument for actively choosing shit
We don't know Biden is "unable" to make deals with the GOP. He has a long legislative history of doing that. One possible example of a bad deal out of a 50 year public career is hardly indicative.

The GOP is going to continue to be incredibly obstructionist, and I don't have faith in either Bernie or Biden making any meaningful improvements there. I'm voting for Bernie, but I have no expectation he will work magic.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,254
Peter was going to endorse Biden, but when he got in his car there was a stapler in the back seat
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
The GOP is going to continue to be incredibly obstructionist, and I don't have faith in either Bernie or Biden making any meaningful improvements there. I'm voting for Bernie, but I have no expectation he will work magic.
Yes, the GOP being obstructionist is on them, no-one from our side can fix that.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
I dunno, here's a republican talking about how much he liked working with Sanders

Biden has a ton of similar stories. Bernie's legislative accomplishments have been limited in scope enough that I don't find them particularly meaningful in terms of his ability to pass large peices of legislation.

Would love to be wrong though.
 

GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,833
Texas
I'll be honest, I'm not even convinced that Bernie winning is the best thing for the progressive movement. If he won the Presidency I do think it'd be great, he'd hopefully have a much better and humane foreign policy which would save thousands, hundreds of thousands of lives abroad and that does mean something to me and I do think he'd try and get legislation passed that was better than what we have now, I don't think he'd be a worse President than Biden or someone else.

But, him squeaking in a win against Trump without actually having a super-majority, not really passing any of his meaningful ideas and even if they were passed not really kicking in time to influence the midterms, if we thought the blacklash to Obama was bad I imagine the backlash to failed "Socialism" will be equally harsh if not harsher. If Sanders wins it wouldn't be entirely on his merits, it'd be because many people sat out the election and didn't think he'd win or whatnot, I expect them to show up in 2022. Even barring that, him running for a second term's of course in the air due to his age, him completing a second term's of course also in the air.

Basically, as big of a deal as winning would be for the Progressive movement I think winning and not being able to actually deliver anything of substance would be an equally bad deal. Right now Progressivism is like Schrodinger's Box, the possibilities of it are endless, we can end homelessness, solve hunger, provide free college to everyone, free healthcare, save the planet and the only thing stopping us is the Democratic establishment but the minute this box is opened and it's contents are run through real US political constraints, whether that be actual votes in Congress, Supreme Court challenges, it's going to come out and the reality is going to be a lot less exciting. Sanders represents a dream and if he can't live up to those lofty goals I worry that'd hurt us even more than his dream just remaining a dream.

'Course, so much is up to fate, FDR wouldn't have been able to do what he did if not for the Great Depression and maybe some external factor would allow a President Sanders to do equally bold things. I don't know.
Could be right for sure. At least the Senate majority is needed with a push for ending of the filibuster. As for the bolded, you kind of have to think that closest window in the modern era was 2008-2010. And instead of going for the most bold things possible to move forward progressive goals aimed at regular people, we picked the most moderate/centrist course of action possible. Then took care of businesses rather than individuals.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
And what does Pete dropping out mean for Bernie?

Am I wholly wrong in assuming that this feels like a concerted effort to stop Bernie?

Pete dropped out because he wants to stop Bernie, but the estimates of how his support breaks up have so far ironically shown that it's a pretty even split. Bernie should be fine.
 

fierygunrob

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 16, 2018
299
"By all accounts"? Which accounts? I missed them if they were in that article.
Apologies, you are correct. Words are not my forte, but that wasn't my point. The point I was trying to make was how would more of THAT approach be a good thing? There's give and take, and then there's just give
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
But that includes current Biden too now. It's like he thinks this is the same GOP he grew up with for decades when it isn't.
I honestly don't think it matters in terms of what legislation they will ultimately be able to pass.

Republicans have an inherently stronger hand most of the time, because they don't care about hurting the people we most want to protect. Bernie or Biden isn't going to change that.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,970
Is it? Because it doesn't really matter where you start from if Republicans will just say no. The negotiation skill people seem to think the Democrats lack isn't really the issue. The issue is Republicans have a lot more they can hold hostage than Democrats do. Whatever obstruction the GOP does can be argued as them fulfilling their platform by limiting government. Democrats are the ones who want a more active state.

It isn't just the Republicans, it is also the Democrats. You think Joe Biden, man who strongly supported the bankruptcy bill and crime bill and has a history of calling for entitlement cuts, isn't going to start from the furthest right option he can get away with? Who cares about what Republicans are going to do, they're an opposing party and doing what an opposing party does. The obsession with bipartisanship is going to end up getting all of us killed.

You need to mobilise the base and pre-compromising on everything isn't going to do that. Unless your goal is to merely make thing less bad, which isn't really a big selling point for a lot of people who feel the whole world is stacked against them.

The one Labor state government in Australia who did not give a shit what anyone said and steamrolled everything they wanted through the government ended up smashing the opposition in the state elections because they didn't pre-compromise on everything and showed they offered something positive to the state. Technocrats who consistently focus test everything hasn't been winning shit in the world if you haven't noticed.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
And what does Pete dropping out mean for Bernie?

Am I wholly wrong in assuming that this feels like a concerted effort to stop Bernie?

Well yea, Pete has made it clear he thinks Sanders is a threat to the ability to remove Trump.

Pete was never going to be viable post NH, he was always going to drop out either after SC or ST.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
It isn't just the Republicans, it is also the Democrats. You think Joe Biden, man who strongly supported the bankruptcy bill and crime bill and has a history of calling for entitlement cuts, isn't going to start from the furthest right option he can get away with? Who cares about what Republicans are going to do, they're an opposition party and doing what an opposition party does.

You need to mobilise the base and pre-compromising on everything isn't going to do that. Unless your goal is to merely make thing less bad, which isn't really a big selling point for a lot of people who feel the whole world is stacked against them.

The one Labor state government in Australia who did not give a shit what anyone said and steamrolled everything they wanted through the government ended up smashing the opposition in the state elections because they didn't pre-compromise on everything and showed they offered something positive to the state. Technocrats who consistently focus test everything hasn't been winning shit in the world if you haven't noticed.
Yeah, I find that statement to be the height of hyperbole, and don't agree with it.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I almost screamed at my mom for voting for Bloomberg in MA. I felt really bad but I couldn't believe it after I've complained about him for the last two months when I talk with her. I still don't think she understood it and I know it's MA anyway but man I was pissed.
 
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