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Oct 28, 2017
4,970
As the saying goes, "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line." And it's not unique to the Dems - leftist parties and coalitions the world over are far more factional and less willing to work with one another than their right-wing counterparts are with each other.

I hate that statement so much. For the most part, right wing political parties agree with each other on most matters. Its easy to fall in line when 80% of your policies for the most part agree with each other and the other 20% aren't that different or important to argue over.

The problem on the left is that they are very split on very key issues. The Green and Labor split in Australia is the best example of this. They are very split on the issue of climate change - of which Labor is currently not planning to do shit except use it as a Liberal Party beating club - and countless policies related to the treatment of asylum seekers to civil liberties to even how education should be funded. If you care a lot about climate change, there is no reason to choose Labor because they are terrified of their own shadow and will maintain the Liberal Party (our Republicans) policy for the most part.

Its the same with the Democrats. One side you have Joe Biden serve the financial industry's interests in Delaware and on the other side you have Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren who want to "smash the banks" so to speak. The stances are more or less incompatible, that leads to the very clear split.

Before people bring up the magic of Obama, his biggest strength was in 2008 where he was a sort of nobody running an extremely populist message of changing the entirety of America during a time of extremely economic stress. A lot of people on the left expected a lot more from him, I'd argue his presidency has resulted in a lot on the further left feeling extremely dissatisfied with the party.
 
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Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Nevada is by far the most representative state so far, and it's not even close.

Nevada was also a caucus, which in the past, when compared to a primary result (See Sanders winning Washington caucus but losing the Washington primary) aren't fully representative of the general population.

Which again, is why we need to fucking get rid of caucuses.
 

Barzul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,965
Nevada was also a caucus, which in the past, when compared to a primary result (See Sanders winning Washington caucus but losing the Washington primary) aren't fully representative of the general population.

Which again, is why we need to fucking get rid of caucuses.
This right here. We haven't had a primary that's truly representative yet. We will on Tuesday though.
 

Exellus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,348
At the end of the day we have a problem here.

We have a lot of moderate voters who will never vote for Sanders and a lot of progressive voters who will never vote for a moderate.

This super long primary season only drags out the conflicts, makes people get even more invested and then when things go poorly they end up just not participating at all.

I don't know what the answer is. It's clear that there's two factions to the Democrat party that may never come to terms.

I think whoever enters the convention with the delegate lead should get the nomination and if that doesn't happen then consider the party done, probably forever.

I'm serious, if the non-plurality candidate gets the nomination, not only is Trump going to win, but the Democrat party will probably lose control of the House and would lose the presidential election in 2024 also. They wouldn't have any supreme court justices either.

They would cease to exist as a party - simply because a few 60 year old blue dogs would rather hold on to power than go along with the voters. I would only hope at that point that some better replacement party would emerge from the ashes of that mess, at some point in my lifetime. But probably not.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,254
New York City
Why are people afraid to say what they really think and what they really feel? All of these mental gymnastics just to hide the very blatent premise and motivations behind what you push for. We really have forgotten what this election is about and what is at stake.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
it's not the place of elected officials to talk about public health crises.

It's their place to address the questions and concerns of the public, and act as leaders when such imminent threats pop up in the US and be willing to address and push for the right actions of those in the government agencies that will handle much of the response to something like Coronavirus.
 

Ashodin

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,598
Durham, NC
I think whoever enters the convention with the delegate lead should get the nomination and if that doesn't happen then consider the party done, probably forever.

I'm serious, if the non-plurality candidate gets the nomination, not only is Trump going to win, but the Democrat party will probably lose control of the House and would lose the presidential election in 2024 also. They wouldn't have any supreme court justices either.
This shit bothered me so much when everyone on the stage but Bernie said that the leader shouldn't get the nomination.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
11,284
As others have stated, Pete dropping out before ST is a big potential wrench in Sanders ST margins as this could send Biden over the edge to become viable in CA and TX

And if you add in the real possibility Sanders isn't viable in Florida? That would be pretty bad for him.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,515
At the end of the day we have a problem here.

We have a lot of moderate voters who will never vote for Sanders and a lot of progressive voters who will never vote for a moderate.

This super long primary season only drags out the conflicts, makes people get even more invested and then when things go poorly they end up just not participating at all.

I don't know what the answer is. It's clear that there's two factions to the Democrat party that may never come to terms.

I think whoever enters the convention with the delegate lead should get the nomination and if that doesn't happen then consider the party done, probably forever.

I'm serious, if the non-plurality candidate gets the nomination, not only is Trump going to win, but the Democrat party will probably lose control of the House and would lose the presidential election in 2024 also. They wouldn't have any supreme court justices either.

They would cease to exist as a party - simply because a few 60 year old blue dogs would rather hold on to power than go along with the voters. I would only hope at that point that some better replacement party would emerge from the ashes of that mess, at some point in my lifetime. But probably not.

Yeah it's going to be really tough. We just have to hope that the people who stay home are a much smaller amount than the people who threaten to every time they hear a bit of bad news. The marginalized people at threat from another four years of Trump deserve doing the bare minimum of actually voting him out of office.
 

RussTC3

Banned
Nov 28, 2018
1,878
Yeah it's going to be really tough. We just have to hope that the people who stay home are a much smaller amount than the people who threaten to every time they hear a bit of bad news. The marginalized people at threat from another four years of Trump deserve doing the bare minimum of actually voting him out of office.
They are. Think Clinton supporters in 2008.
 

Chindogg

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,241
East Lansing, MI
Why are people afraid to say what they really think and what they really feel? All of these mental gymnastics just to hide the very blatent premise and motivations behind what you push for. We really have forgotten what this election is about and what is at stake.

I bit the bullet in 2016 to vote for the queen. I'm not fucking voting for Biden. Guilt me all you want but I refuse to bend the knee again, especially to a dude that's only winning because he was Obama's VP.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,280
Why are people afraid to say what they really think and what they really feel? All of these mental gymnastics just to hide the very blatent premise and motivations behind what you push for. We really have forgotten what this election is about and what is at stake.

Ok, I'll be honest, and say what I really think: The new Lady Gaga song is bad, which isn't a surprise because it's literally a reject from Joanne, and the video having to be a "Shot on iPhone" promo thing is embarrassing
 

Ashodin

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,598
Durham, NC
The vote's gonna be depressed if Bernie takes a ton of delegates and doesn't get the nom at the convention. People and Trump will see it as stealing the primary from him and Trump especially will rile up his base saying that Democrats are cheats.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,328
This shit bothered me so much when everyone on the stage but Bernie said that the leader shouldn't get the nomination.
And the others aside from Bernie were right. In the absence of another vote, the pledged votes of a candidate who dropped out should go to the remaining candidate of their preference since as a representative democracy that candidate that is dropping out is the voice of the people who voted for them.

therefore, it is on Bernie to get endorsements from candidates that drop out.
 

thoughthaver

Banned
Feb 6, 2020
434
bernie coming out of super tuesday with the majority of votes and delegates but biden being the presumptive nominee is dumb. but i guess that's the reason for the "second place is the real winner" stuff the media was peddling. just preparing us for some prime time fuckery.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,515
They are. Think Clinton supporters in 2008.


My worry is that there are a lot more people now who would support such a decision. Entire online communities might arrange boycotts. Maybe I'm just projecting my fears, but it's going to be a rough GE no matter what.
 

Jadentheman

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,207
As others have stated, Pete dropping out before ST is a big potential wrench in Sanders ST margins as this could send Biden over the edge to become viable in CA and TX

And if you add in the real possibility Sanders isn't viable in Florida? That would be pretty bad for him.

Most people already did their voting via early voting. Also polls suggest that Sanders is the second choice among Buttigieg supporters.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,280
My worry is that there are a lot more people who would support such a decision now. Entire online communities might arrange boycotts. Maybe I'm just projecting my fears, but it's going to be a rough GE no matter what.

i mean, historically, "online communities arranging boycotts" isn't that big of a deal
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
The vote's gonna be depressed if Bernie takes a ton of delegates and doesn't get the nom at the convention. People and Trump will see it as stealing the primary from him and Trump especially will rile up his base saying that Democrats are cheats.
No, that's just falling for Trumps shit. Republicans won't extra special want to win because Trump calls Democrats cheats. They already think we're cheats.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
11,284
The vote's gonna be depressed if Bernie takes a ton of delegates and doesn't get the nom at the convention. People and Trump will see it as stealing the primary from him and Trump especially will rile up his base saying that Democrats are cheats.

If people think Sanders is cheated out of the nomination because "he has a lot of delegates"... but still not a majority or even a majority of popular votes, then thats just people wanting to believe a narrative even when reality doesn't support it.

We shouldn't bend to the will of folks who ignore reality for the sake of their own personal ambitions and political agendas.
 

Ashodin

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,598
Durham, NC
And the others aside from Bernie were right. In the absence of another vote, the pledged votes of a candidate who dropped out should go to the remaining candidate of their preference since as a representative democracy that candidate that is dropping out is the voice of the people who voted for them.

therefore, it is on Bernie to get endorsements from candidates that drop out.
This is why the best response right now would be for Warren to endorse Bernie and drop out. They both share the same ideals mostly.
 
Oct 27, 2017
936
You know, I just want to take some credit for the fact that I've stated numerous times that while everyone was obsessing over Bloomberg two weeks, Biden was still Sanders' main rival for the nomination.

My soothsaying has been on point so listen to me when I say Sanders is still favored on ST even though Biden has one less ball and chain on him.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,062
It seems obvious becaue it's an easy answer, not because it's the right one.

And again, the primary should not on an institutional level be geared around deciding who has the best chance of winning the general. It's to make sure the candidate with the most support within the Party becomes that parties' leader.
I could do with less condescension.

And again, you and I already agreed it serves two purposes, finding a representative nominee and winning. Moving the states around more strategically relative to the general doesn't compromise the second goal any more than the current system does. So it is just an argument over what strategy serves the best path forward toward optimizing the nominee that will win in the general while preserving a process that allows the party some level of control.

If you think a all out national vote is that, fine, but I am not convinced and would want to hear a more convincing argument. It's certainly more democratic, but since one of the goals here is winning, you kind of want to gear the system in a way that maximizes that as well.
 

Ashodin

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,598
Durham, NC
Say all you want about not voting for Biden (it's dumb, always always vote) I will begrudgingly vote for him because my vote still has meaning to me.
 

Ashodin

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,598
Durham, NC
matt said:
And again, the primary should not on an institutional level be geared around deciding who has the best chance of winning the general. It's to make sure the candidate with the most support within the Party becomes that parties' leader.

And yet this is what Pete is dropping out for because he believes Biden can win the GE. And also there was some likely back and forth of support after dropping out
 

Exellus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,348
I would vote for Biden in the GE, but I would have absolutely zero faith that he would win. The same feeling I had when I voted for Hillary - zero faith she would win.

And I absolutely would not blame anyone that decided to stay home. I would disagree with it, but I would understand where they're coming from.

Can you imagine if Democrats lost the presidency but won the Senate?
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
11,284
personal ambition of wanting some form of health care that isn't garbage

Again, if people create narratives out of thin air I'm not sure why anyone would want to back them if their core arguments don't actually gain any support from the majority of voters of the party.

Public option would greatly improve the amount of affordable coverage in the US, and is definitely another step to affordable universal coverage that would be far more simple to implement and pass through a congress.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
11,284
I would vote for Biden in the GE, but I would have absolutely zero faith that he would win. The same feeling I had when I voted for Hillary - zero faith she would win.

And I absolutely would not blame anyone that decided to stay home. I would disagree with it, but I would understand where they're coming from.

Can you imagine if Democrats lost the presidency but won the Senate?

That wouldn't exactly be a horrible outcome because Trump becomes a four year lame duck, Democrats can protect and block any SCOTUS and judicial nominations and we get more Trump blowback in midterms for a huge D trifecta in 2024
 

Deleted member 43

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Oct 24, 2017
9,271
I could do with less condescension.

And again, you and I already agreed it serves two purposes, finding a representative nominee and winning. Moving the states around more strategically relative to the general doesn't compromise the second goal anymore than the current system does. So it is just an argument over what strategy serves the best path forward toward optimizing the nominee that will win in the general.

If you think a all out national vote is that, fine, but I am not convinced and would want to hear a more convincing argument.
We're just going around in circles at this point, because you believe the primaries main purpose is to pick the strongest general election candidate, whlie I believe it's to find the candidate supported by the most people within the party. Like I said, otherwise we would just use a simpler means to pick them than a primary.

And I had no desire to be condescending, I meant that comment literally. What you suggested does have an internal logic that seems obvious. It's just that that doesn't mean it's actually going to acheive the intention. Most popular candidate in a primary for a given state does not really have predictive power for how that candidate will fare in that state in the general.
 
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