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Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
I thought he was out when he had the heart attack, bu

um, if not for support from wealthy donors, how is someone like klobuchar still showing up at debates
What does that have to do with if my point, that Bernie's face, message, and ideas are being presented to the democratic primary voters, and that the eventual winner of the primary will be the candidate that the most people vote for?
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,452
Sweden
What does that have to do with if my point, that Bernie's face, message, and ideas are being presented to the democratic primary voters, and that the eventual winner of the primary will be the candidate that the most people vote for?
My point was that no one likes Klobuchar, and yet she gets equal speaking time as Biden and Bernie at every single debate to spout her centrist shit, and it's all thanks to corporate money keeping her afloat
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
There are limits on how much money someone can donate to a campaign, and it's not like Bernie is hurting for money, so I don't know what point you are trying to make.

And I spent many years working in politics at the National level, so I think I have a pretty good understanding of It in general.

There are relative limits to anything's effectiveness. This doesn't change the fact that these things are

1. perversions of clearly representing the will of the people.
2. Has largely been responsible for influencing and warping public perception for decades, and a key driver in slowing progress in the United States.
3. Must be ripped out at their roots in order to preserve democracy and a functionality representative society over the long term.

The issue is that you don't seem to view the system itself as culpable for the degradation of norms and proper representation within the country. You don't view the political/media/financing system itself as a core problem in the country, and it absolutely is.

'Well Sanders is getting his message out' is cold comfort when the media, through centralized ownership and a desire to maintain a malignant status quo, also has had a proven record of discriminating against Sanders like candidates that try to upend the donor and influence controlled systems.


You don't see how candidates parrot pro profit Health Care industry talking points influences perception before a citizen even gets to the ballot booth? And, generally speaking, how these corporations that are donating, influencing, and misdirecting are doing spin favor of themselves and not the people of the country? It's the whole reason that corporations routinely end up skirting (if not outright breaking) regulations whenever higher profits can be attained versus the health of the people. Corporations only exist, functionally, for the betterment of itself, not society. People are malleable and prone to conditioning/suggestion, it's exactly why corporations buy politicians and spend billions of psychological research for advertising, because it works.
 
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Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
Look at our healthy boy!

Bernie is "too old", but at the end of the day American's shouldn't be splitting hairs over thinking "he might die" when the country is massively failing people who are dying now due to poverty, wealth inequality and a lack of sustainable healthcare.

There will be people like Bernie to follow in Bernie's footsteps. It's hardly a "bad gamble", to back the old geezer as is and think about what comes after him nearer such a time.

AOC is one to follow and she's closely walking in Bernie's footsteps.
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
But...that's not happening in this primary as far as we know. Bernie has the money other candidates do, he's using it, his message is getting out there and he has a shot at winning. He's not being locked out or ignored.

Democratic primary voters all have had a lot of time to get introduced to and learn about Bernie and his policies, this cycle and in 2016. If you are arguing his message is being shut out or that he's an unknown, well I just disagree, and polling seems to back me up.

The system isn't perfect and there needs to be change, but ultimately Democratic Primary voters will decide who their party's candidate for President is.

We know for a fact that certain candidates are grooming big wealthy donors and others aren't.

We know for a fact that certain influential industries (that donate a shitton of money to politicians) favor certain candidates and policies over others.

It's clearly happening in the Democratic primary...! It happens in every single election.

The Democratic party is not free of the influence of big money. Just because Bernie is doing well against it regarding fundraising, doesn't mean it's not happening or having an effect.

We already agreed that money can influence voters. You going back to Democratic voters will decide the election is again completely missing the point. You're basically saying propaganda funded by big money doesn't matter because voters vote. Well, voters voting with bad or incomplete or skewed reasons funded by big money isn't good!

I'm done.

We both explained our views and people reading can decide what to think.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
Bernie is "too old", but at the end of the day American's shouldn't be splitting hairs over thinking "he might die" when the country is massively failing people who are dying now due to poverty, wealth inequality and a lack of sustainable healthcare.

There will be people like Bernie to follow in Bernie's footsteps. It's hardly a "bad gamble", to back the old geezer as is and think about what comes after him nearer such a time.
I'd prefer a young Bernie, but at least he seems to be in good health after the heart stent. It's not like he's old, on a trash diet, and getting no exercise like donald

And as you said, he's energizing younger people to follow his lead. I'd much rather invest in the democratic geezer who is investing in the future than the one looking back and to the right.
 

Ashodin

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,597
Durham, NC
I'd prefer a young Bernie, but at least he seems to be in good health after the heart stent. It's not like he's old, on a trash diet, and getting no exercise like donald

And as you said, he's energizing younger people to follow his lead. I'd much rather invest in the democratic geezer who is investing in the future than the one looking back and to the right.
AOC will be probably the most high profile candidate in the next elections in 2024 or 2028.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,172
On "the establishment" not supporting Bernie: no kidding, he's not even a Democrat. Why should the DNC get behind an independent over actual party members? I don't get why it's controversial.

But hopefully they end up having to support him, by virtue of voters supporting him. I'm in Nevada, and I do think he'll get a win here.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,920
Can he swing Trump voters in the battleground states that Hillary lost?

Can ANY Democrat do that?

That is what it all comes down to.
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,234
giphy.gif
 

AzorAhai

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,610
I keep voting for the people but damn they're so stupid. I will not be surprised if the results are similar to that after UK elections though.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
The sampling size really isn't that small for 3 states. Most national polls are 500-1000 usually.
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
We need everyone who isn't Biden and Bernie to drop out immediately. It's clear it's a race between those two. And yes, including Warren. If Bernie is struggling to catch up to Biden, then Warren has no chance. Bernie could use all the additional votes as possible.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
The sampling size really isn't that small for 3 states. Most national polls are 500-1000 usually.

It's 4 to be fair. It sounds as though they didn't have enough to reliably do state by state for those, but I could be wrong.

The "Early Primary State Voters" demographic consists of 773 voters in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada or South Carolina, and has a margin of error of plus or minus 4 points.

Lots of good data points for Sanders in that poll. He comes out ahead from Biden or Warren dropping in support. On top of that, Sanders has the highest favourables, and lowest unfavourables of any candidate.
 
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Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
We know for a fact that certain candidates are grooming big wealthy donors and others aren't.

We know for a fact that certain influential industries (that donate a shitton of money to politicians) favor certain candidates and policies over others.

It's clearly happening in the Democratic primary...! It happens in every single election.

The Democratic party is not free of the influence of big money. Just because Bernie is doing well against it regarding fundraising, doesn't mean it's not happening or having an effect.

We already agreed that money can influence voters. You going back to Democratic voters will decide the election is again completely missing the point. You're basically saying propaganda funded by big money doesn't matter because voters vote. Well, voters voting with bad or incomplete or skewed reasons funded by big money isn't good!

I'm done.

We both explained our views and people reading can decide what to think.
Well, yeah. It's the worst system except for all the others. Big money is a problem, but it's not a problem that will be solved for this primary. Is the actual process of voting and tallying votes legitimate? Yes, so the will of the people is being exercised.

Otherwise you're just setting up a rhetorical situation where if your prefers candidate wins the process was legitimate, and if they lose it was a farce. I find views like that to be deeply unhelpful and self-fulfilling.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
It's 4 to be fair.

The "Early Primary State Voters" demographic consists of 773 voters in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada or South Carolina, and has a margin of error of plus or minus 4 points.
Oh they got SC in the mix? I'll wait for a new Iowa and NH poll before getting nervous.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,540
Cape Cod, MA
Can he swing Trump voters in the battleground states that Hillary lost?

Can ANY Democrat do that?

That is what it all comes down to.
Nah. In at least one of those those states, all Hillary needed was the Jill Stein voters. We don't need a single Trump voter from 2016 to vote for the Dem to win. Just better turnout for the dem candidate, and slightly depressed turnout for Trump.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Nah. In at least one of those those states, all Hillary needed was the Jill Stein voters. We don't need a single Trump voter from 2016 to vote for the Dem to win. Just better turnout for the dem candidate, and slightly depressed turnout for Trump.

In the 2016 primary Sanders dominated among those who self described as independent. For what it's worth, almost all polling showed that Sanders could have won the GEon election night based on Pre-Election and Exit Polling.

"The poll, reported by the Huffington Post, found that the Vermont senator would have likely earned 56 per cent of the vote, while Mr Trump would have only received 44 per cent.

Hillary Clinton did not fare quite as well in the poll amongst Independent voters – who could not vote during the primaries, resulting in Mr Sanders' loss to the former Secretary of State. The poll found that Mr Sanders led Ms Clinton among independent voters 55 to 45 per cent. Ms Clinton suffered a major blow Tuesday night from that particular demographic, losing independents to Donald Trump 48 per cent to 42 per cent. "


Can he swing Trump voters in the battleground states that Hillary lost?

Can ANY Democrat do that?

That is what it all comes down to.

Yes. However, that overstates its relative importance. You're point to get okay ish 'Trump -> Dem' conversions as is, but Sanders messaging in the GE shouldn't be under estimated for pealing away voters whom are among the same groups that Trump won with.
 
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y2dvd

Member
Nov 14, 2017
2,481
On "the establishment" not supporting Bernie: no kidding, he's not even a Democrat. Why should the DNC get behind an independent over actual party members? I don't get why it's controversial.

But hopefully they end up having to support him, by virtue of voters supporting him. I'm in Nevada, and I do think he'll get a win here.

I will never know why the hell this matters when more aligns with my ideals and values than any other Dems.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
In the 2016 primary Sanders dominated among those who self described as independent. For what it's worth, almost all polling showed that Sanders could have won the GEon election night based on Pre-Election and Exit Polling.

"The poll, reported by the Huffington Post, found that the Vermont senator would have likely earned 56 per cent of the vote, while Mr Trump would have only received 44 per cent.

Hillary Clinton did not fare quite as well in the poll amongst Independent voters – who could not vote during the primaries, resulting in Mr Sanders' loss to the former Secretary of State. The poll found that Mr Sanders led Ms Clinton among independent voters 55 to 45 per cent. Ms Clinton suffered a major blow Tuesday night from that particular demographic, losing independents to Donald Trump 48 per cent to 42 per cent. "




Yes. However, that overstates its relative importance. You're point to get okay ish 'Trump -> Dem' conversions as is, but Sanders messaging in the GE shouldn't be under estimated for pealing away voters whom are among the same groups that Trump won with.

Almost none of this is actually provable. The last H2H polls we had of Sanders vs Trump was in May 2016. Every poll these days shows him being worse off than Clinton polled against Trump. Reminder that Clinton prior to the Comey letter was polling 6-10 points ahead of Trump nationally, and that dropped to 2-4 ahead in the 10 days before the election after the letter. She lead Trump in polling all through the election—where he barely crept ahead after the Republican Convention, and his gains were substantially less than Republicans traditionally saw after their Convention.

Sanders faced almost no attacks, and was only ever polled as a theoretical candidate. If he could dominate Trump we'd see massive margins now that he has a chance, but we just don't.
 

Maxim726x

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
13,063
I will never know why the hell this matters when more aligns with my ideals and values than any other Dems.

It matters to the institution in question, for obvious reasons.

Why would they support someone who has never supported the organization? Particularly over other candidates who are apart of the party apparatus?
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
On "the establishment" not supporting Bernie: no kidding, he's not even a Democrat. Why should the DNC get behind an independent over actual party members? I don't get why it's controversial.

But hopefully they end up having to support him, by virtue of voters supporting him. I'm in Nevada, and I do think he'll get a win here.
"He's not even a Democrat" is a big cop out. If he were one the party would still be beefin with him. It's his message and people first approach instead of prioritizing wealthy donors.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
It's very possible that Biden will be the nominee.
It is, however it's not the most likely outcome at present. Biden has been eroding wherever the fight gets serious. It's even more likely that we see shifts in his support if he performs as he's currently indicated to in early states (go look at the state by state aggregates for the early states).

Biden is DOA if he can't clear 15% in some areas.

Sanders faced almost no attacks, and was only ever polled as a theoretical candidate. If he could dominate Trump we'd see massive margins now that he has a chance, but we just don't.

For the record the poll was conducted November 6th.

To your point : This is a faulty premise.

Biden at his height didn't put up the numbers you are inferring and Sanders numbers haven't actually improved all that much. It's the race itself and it's dynamics that have changed along with his improved numbers (some time ago, with the media only just now stating the obvious). Sanders absolutely is currently the best positioned if current trends continue, but the overall composition of the race is one that makes it impossible for any 'sure bets' at the moment.

In terms of 'almost none of this is provable', the bit about his dominance with Dem primary voters that identified as independents certainly is.

If you're going to criticize Sanders H2H numbers against Trump. He's often the one putting up the best numbers in key areas that Hilary lost in 2016. Every candidate is likely to show worse numbers H2H with Trump at this juncture, that's fairly normal when it's still a competitive Primary versus a sitting President.
 
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Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
Well, yeah. It's the worst system except for all the others. Big money is a problem, but it's not a problem that will be solved for this primary. Is the actual process of voting and tallying votes legitimate? Yes, so the will of the people is being exercised.

Otherwise you're just setting up a rhetorical situation where if your prefers candidate wins the process was legitimate, and if they lose it was a farce. I find views like that to be deeply unhelpful and self-fulfilling.

There's plenty of space between farse and legitimate, and it has nothing to do with anyone's preferred candidate.

The process is skewed and corrupted. Not a complete farse. And it's skewed in the direction of big money donors. And it's irrelevant who wins. The skew is there. The skew affects not just a single election, but every single political issue and election.

It's like you're projecting a weird perspective onto me and the preemptively trying to compensate for it for some reason. Honestly kinda bizarre.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
It is, however it's not the most likely outcome at present. Biden has been eroding wherever the fight gets serious. It's even more likely that we see shifts in his support if he performs as he's currently indicated to in early states (go look at the state by state aggregates for the early states).

Biden is DOA if he can't clear 15% in some areas.
Honestly, I'm a little worried Boomer democrats are so used to going with Republican-lite, that they'll see it as a plus when Biden acts like Trump-lite when he's stumbling around, acting like a bully, and just being an all around embodiment of privilege.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
What happens if someone wins the primary and then dies before the general election is over? What is the process for that circumstance?