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Defund the Police vs Abolish the Police
- Thread starter Deleted member 4461
- Start date
But it was implied cops were rapist so not to go there. Whatever. A lot of moving points in here.
At the root of the problem with the police lies white supremacy. Until this is addressed, no amount of "reform" will be effective.
That's my opinion too. I don't think abolishing police today would do anything to solve the systemic racism plaguing our society. Rich whites will just find another way to put PoCs down.
but I will certainly not let perfect be the enemy of good and will cheer on any and all reform we can get.
The Rush to Redefine “Defund the Police”
An abolitionist demand rose to mainstream prominence. Now every politician and cable news talking head is suddenly an expert.
newrepublic.com
more at the link
To all those baffled by how defunding police would somehow increase murder rape etc:
Throughout the US, crime has decreased dramatically over the last few decades while the budgets for law enforcement continue to balloon (and it's not a cause and effect correlation). All while the incidence of mental health issues dramatically increases and the homeless population continues to expand. Where is the funding for mental health? Where is the funding to provide children a good education and give homeless people a pathway toward getting their life together? Continuing to fund police and giving money to prisons will not fix the underlying structural issues in society and more importantly places the lives of minorities at risk. The overall message of defunding the police gives a holistic perspective to public safety while moving away from the puritanical (and racist) system we have now.
Throughout the US, crime has decreased dramatically over the last few decades while the budgets for law enforcement continue to balloon (and it's not a cause and effect correlation). All while the incidence of mental health issues dramatically increases and the homeless population continues to expand. Where is the funding for mental health? Where is the funding to provide children a good education and give homeless people a pathway toward getting their life together? Continuing to fund police and giving money to prisons will not fix the underlying structural issues in society and more importantly places the lives of minorities at risk. The overall message of defunding the police gives a holistic perspective to public safety while moving away from the puritanical (and racist) system we have now.
OP
OP
They need to reign in the "abolish" crowd. If they somehow convince Biden to backing "abolishing" police that's going to be a death sentence in the general election.
Pretty sure the "abolish" crowd doesn't give a shit about what helps or hurts Biden, after all, throughout his career, he's been one of the main opponents of everything they stand for. They're fighting for the world they want (a world without armed police occupying their neighborhoods, and instead having that money be used for more socially useful things). Saying "they" (who is the "they" you're referring to anyway?) need to "reign in" that crowd is also kind of...condescending? Like they're unruly kids as opposed to people with serious political differences on the topic of policing in America.
If people disagree on the merits, then just make that case, as there's always debate to be had, but the whole "it might hurt Democrats in the future!" thing makes no sense, especially since frequent police violence often occurs in already fully Democratic cities in the first place, and massive protests about police violence have occurred in both Democratic and Republican presidential administrations (since this issue also has persisted across administrations). The lesser evil argument might make sense for other reasons, but on this particular issue, "we just gotta vote blue!" (especially when the "blue" in this case is Joe Biden, lol) makes zero sense to bring up.
I heard about this today.
I am looking forward to changes like these. This needs to happen in LA, NYC, etc. Where the fight remains.
Defund is the right way to go but might need better branding
Abolish is an unrealistic utopian dream for our time, like getting rid of money or solving scarcity
Abolish is an unrealistic utopian dream for our time, like getting rid of money or solving scarcity
Defunded with a police version of the UCMJ implemented. Basically demilitarize them just enough but somehow still keep them functional.
Those community defense literally are what became cops. Instead of sheriffs, community defense squads in the south (largely filled with KKK members) built police forces.
In the north, the origin for most police forces is in ethnic mobs that protected communities that eventually became the police in those cities.
Abolish is just too strong of a word to resonate with people. Police is not as bad everywhere as it is in the USA. The places were police are terrible have governments who enable them to act with impunity. Strong laws and balances make the police a helpful institution.
Imo the best outcome would be 2 different types of police officers: one type that carries no weapons and is trained in non-violent conflict resolution that would not be allowed to use any type of force unless under dire circumstances (all interactions with the public would be filmed and made publicly available, every uses of force would undergo significant review) . This would constitute 90-95% of the force. These officers would deal with the vast majority of issues.
The other 5-10% would carry weapons, but would undergo serious vetting before admission into the force and then would experience a lengthy and intensive training process before being allowed to police the public.They would only be called in for crime that poses immediate and obvious danger.
The other 5-10% would carry weapons, but would undergo serious vetting before admission into the force and then would experience a lengthy and intensive training process before being allowed to police the public.They would only be called in for crime that poses immediate and obvious danger.
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Abolish is too strong. Honestly answer this, what are you going to do about gangs if the police are diminished in some communities? You have to get rid of one before the other.
I want a reform focusing on reducing laws that overtly protect the police, and targeting training.
I want a reform focusing on reducing laws that overtly protect the police, and targeting training.
If you demand reform they will give you only minor concessions. If you ask for something that sounds "insane" you'll have more chances of getting reform.
Some Americans looking at their nations problems and jumping immediately to ridiculous Utopian ideals that will never work in practice, rather than just looking at what other countries do far more successfully and try to imitate, will never not make me laugh.
Some of you should look up the term private contractors, because that is what you gonna get and it is gonna be alot worse
The literal definition of defund is:
prevent from continuing to receive funds
Which sounds like abolish to many people, rightfully so. Especially when many red states defunding Planned Parenthood with their bills are writing how to completely end it in their states.
Defund isn't coming across as the reform many are looking for.
prevent from continuing to receive funds
Which sounds like abolish to many people, rightfully so. Especially when many red states defunding Planned Parenthood with their bills are writing how to completely end it in their states.
Defund isn't coming across as the reform many are looking for.
OP
OP
That's one worry. But that's why "abolish" doesn't mean right now. I would hope no one is dumb enough to suggest private contractors considering how much we're already ruled by money.
Get rid of them? Now thats a bad fucking idea. I don't know what will happen then. Unrelentless death and destruction from criminals waiting for that to happen.Defund them? YES. Theres no reason why they have enough arsenal to wage WW3.
Imagine a world with private companies policing people? Or imagine a world like Robocop where a Private Company basically runs the Police. Bad bad idea, even less oversight.
What I do think is there needs to be far more oversight by the federal government..and there needs to be a national agency that handles it, and another one to handle all complaints about the police on a national level. One thats Government funded, but independently run as oversight to the police overseers, and making sure they actually run a tight ship on a national level.(all police departments) This law unto themselves precinct bs has been going on for too long. There needs to be more oversight, and more heads to roll when things go wrong. If cops FEAR the repercussions of messing up, where even a simple complaint from the member if public can result in a termination, they will step in line. So people must he allowed to complain about any cop, any where , to this one agency. And the other agency needs to make sure the first is following up, or else you can report it to them the other is dragging their feet.
Imagine a world with private companies policing people? Or imagine a world like Robocop where a Private Company basically runs the Police. Bad bad idea, even less oversight.
What I do think is there needs to be far more oversight by the federal government..and there needs to be a national agency that handles it, and another one to handle all complaints about the police on a national level. One thats Government funded, but independently run as oversight to the police overseers, and making sure they actually run a tight ship on a national level.(all police departments) This law unto themselves precinct bs has been going on for too long. There needs to be more oversight, and more heads to roll when things go wrong. If cops FEAR the repercussions of messing up, where even a simple complaint from the member if public can result in a termination, they will step in line. So people must he allowed to complain about any cop, any where , to this one agency. And the other agency needs to make sure the first is following up, or else you can report it to them the other is dragging their feet.
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Minneapolis city council plan is to defund the police, and their definition of that is getting rid of them completely and replacing them with different community programs. So yah it pretty much sounds like getting rid of police to me.
I don't care whether you want to defund or abolish the police, but the real question is what the Americans want to do with funds instead. Let's hope the people stay engaged and actually do the hard work of reorganising the law enforcement and establish community service instead of half-assing it.
There is absolutely no chance that Biden backs "abolishing" the police.
Literally zero chance.
Merely abolishing the police is not the solution. Laws have to change too. Our whole cultural structure would have to change. Police are law enforcers, after the police are gone who would enforce these laws in their stead and why wouldn't these people basically be police themself?
But It's a good first step to get these ideas out.
But It's a good first step to get these ideas out.
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No one is advocating PMC's as law enforcement; people are calling for replacements.
Instead of one organization, say, NYPD for example, you destroy it and come out with several: New York Department of Mental Health, Department of Welfare and Homeless Resources, Department of Civil Mediation, and Department of Enforcement.
Each group is specialized in specific tasks. You call 911 for a person wandering along a major highway, the DMH is sent in. Squatters nets you DWH. Potential domestic violence, DWH. Someone speeding gets pulled over by the DCM.
All of these people are trained for longer than six weeks to handle the case loads that they will no doubt come across and dabble in a little bit of overlap in instances where someone from a different department may need to respond to either the same case or arrive before someone more specialized can come in. And the, if shit goes down, the Department Of Enforcement comes in, which would be more analogous to what people see as cops, but should probably go through similar training as military and the FBI. These are the ones that should be armed, and among them, only SWAT should be heavily armed with things like rifles and shotguns.
That way, you get the right person for the job and not someone who's trained to be jumpy 100% of the time, resulting in people getting shot during what should be simple welfare checks.
Federal oversight will only go so far, and none of this will function the way it should with regular old reformation. You need to remove funding, destroy, and then replace. We've seen it before when federal agencies have been replaced with something newer and more optimized. Department of Homeland Security, for example, was something that was brand new post-9/11 that took over the roles of several different agencies after those agencies were abolished.
ICE itself came about after the prior immigration agency was abolished and replaced. To shitty results, sure, but the speed at which they were able to achieve those shitty results are only because no one tried to Optimus Prime the prior agency and simply made a replacement and nuked the old one.
The cops shouldn't fear messing up because the vast majority of the time, the cops aren't needed for the situations they mess up in in the first place.
Yes. Cops are often rapists who aren't punished . Not a moving point. Having cops won't keep people from being raped or make sure that they're punished when cops are rapists.
I don't know what's difficult to understand about that.
Often cops discourage rape victims from reporting, don't follow through in investigations, and don't even test rape kits. In light of the evidence, I don't know how anyone could think cops would prevent or punish rapists in reality. It's ignorant.
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They're going to defund the current PD and replace it with a different law enforcement program. Nothing I've read from what the council has said sounds like they're going to entirely get rid of "police".
I think totally re imagining what law enforcement looks like will really benefit us. Community policing has a lot of potential, too many cops in cities live no where near the communities they police. Plus I would imagine it's much easier to deescalate the vast majority of situations if everyone knows each other. Of course the key, still, is getting the right people in these jobs and not letting it be infiltrated by white supremacists, power hungry psychos, etc.
Yes defund, restructure, abolish the police, but don't think this will solve the problems in American society that exist and will continue to exist unless you address the bigger more fundamental issues that affect the lives of black people, like access to free healthcare, easier access to better and higher education, banning guns, decriminalising drug use, etc..etc..
Black lives matter, but also black people deserve better.
Black lives matter, but also black people deserve better.
so imo one of the best defund / abolish the police books is now available for free in ebook format: Policing the Planet: Why the Policing Crisis Led to Black Lives Matter , as always with Verso's free BLM & police books they come with the publisher's plea to donate - if you can - to blackvisionscollective or your local bail fund!
Absolutely this. Police are only one cog in an odious machine. Class is an issue too.
The police serve an intrinsic role in capitalism: to protect the property of the ruling class. Our political-economy is fundamentally undemocratic, systemically reproducing a minority of monied elites via labor exploitation. Therefore a "special body of armed men" is necessary to (literally) beat back any effort by the working class majority to claim anything like a just distribution of wealth.
Black people, being the most oppressed in America, and having the most to gain from systemic change, are especially targeted by police to prevent any organized resistance from below.
The modern police force evolved from two primary tasks: slave catching, and strike busting. Its current form reflects those functions.
Abolition of police is absolutely the horizon we must look toward, but advocates of police abolition are wrong to think it's a viable reform proposal without a revolutionary restructuring of society.
Even the more mild "defund" demand (if taken seriously) will involve a major confrontation with capitalism. It's not a simple question of budget allocation.
Black people, being the most oppressed in America, and having the most to gain from systemic change, are especially targeted by police to prevent any organized resistance from below.
The modern police force evolved from two primary tasks: slave catching, and strike busting. Its current form reflects those functions.
Abolition of police is absolutely the horizon we must look toward, but advocates of police abolition are wrong to think it's a viable reform proposal without a revolutionary restructuring of society.
Even the more mild "defund" demand (if taken seriously) will involve a major confrontation with capitalism. It's not a simple question of budget allocation.
As it's been explained to me; asking for total abolition of the police is more of a negotiation tactic. If you go in asking for reforms they'll only give you the bare minimum and no real foundational changes will occur. You go in asking for abolition and they're more likely to cede certain changes.
I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can see the logic in it at least.
that probably is the argument. Personally I think it's nonsense as to drive the kind of change you need majority and the majority aren't gonna get behind this extremist, myopic sounding notion.
and I'm sure a lot of people actually believe it at face value and not in the nuanced way you describe or is in the OP, which is also damaging
bad slogan all round
it wouldn't. i'm all for reformation, but there has to be something there when you call 911.
Not my idea but I personally like 'Nerf the Police'.
My reasoning, which is entirely my own, are as followes:
This term recongizes that it's the young ones and new generation are the ones primarily driving the protests and the movement. Yes, alot of older folks won't know what it means but they will be curious. You can then explain your position from a position of neutrality and curiosity instead of hostility and confrontation that the word 'defund' usually invokes in politics.
Language matters in politics. 'Defund' already has a definite meaning in politics (i.e. take everything away completely, hence 'Defund Planned Parenthood). It's the reason why you are seeing so much pearl clutching from many sides.
Plus the image of the police using nerf guns deescalates the whole situation. It's also easy too turn into a meme and very eyecatching as a bumper sticker.
My reasoning, which is entirely my own, are as followes:
This term recongizes that it's the young ones and new generation are the ones primarily driving the protests and the movement. Yes, alot of older folks won't know what it means but they will be curious. You can then explain your position from a position of neutrality and curiosity instead of hostility and confrontation that the word 'defund' usually invokes in politics.
Language matters in politics. 'Defund' already has a definite meaning in politics (i.e. take everything away completely, hence 'Defund Planned Parenthood). It's the reason why you are seeing so much pearl clutching from many sides.
Plus the image of the police using nerf guns deescalates the whole situation. It's also easy too turn into a meme and very eyecatching as a bumper sticker.
Dumb European here, but "abolish the police" seems a very naive way to paint law enforcement per se as a problem, instead of focusing into the SPECIFIC problems that made law enforcement in the US something that cannot be tolerated anymore, which obviously is not the only possible outcome of having a police.
The way I see it, even defunding has nothing to do with solving systemic racism. It certainly looks like a way of better serving communities, but as for the matter at hand, it will merely reduce the chance for racists to do harm.
Not saying it's easy, but BLM should not lose focus with this kind of side agendas or plans for a very far future. Nobody asks for a unicorn and gets a horse as a compromise, they will just be ignored.
The way I see it, even defunding has nothing to do with solving systemic racism. It certainly looks like a way of better serving communities, but as for the matter at hand, it will merely reduce the chance for racists to do harm.
Not saying it's easy, but BLM should not lose focus with this kind of side agendas or plans for a very far future. Nobody asks for a unicorn and gets a horse as a compromise, they will just be ignored.
In what scenario would that happen? If you're going to say when all the police are gone, then I'll say that's obviously not happening. This talk of private companies I've seen brought up to pour cold water on the idea of drastic police reform in general.
It's not one or the other, it's first one then the other.
All the while putting every penny of 'savings' into social programs to get rid of the causes of most crime.
Simples 😉
- Defund the police
- Abolish the police
All the while putting every penny of 'savings' into social programs to get rid of the causes of most crime.
Simples 😉
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Not sure what reform you are talking about beyond getting rid of them
Exactly, defund is terrible messaging. I don't understand why reformers want to twist the word into meaning something else. It sounds ridiculous when applied to a cause. Like saying "Defund Higher Education", when what I'd really like is reform and less spending on administration and more on teaching.
Defund has a clear meaning, and it does not make sense to pretend otherwise.