• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,588
Brevity.

If I had to levy one complaint against the entire genre of JRPG's, it'd be that they are nearly all way too long. I've played dozens upon dozens of them over the course of my life, but I can count on one hand how many I've seen through to the end. Generally speaking, a core tenet of JRPG design seems to be stretching very repetitive gameplay (especially when it comes to combat) incredibly thin over a wide expanse of runtime. This, naturally, is almost always at the cost of pacing, which is a real detriment to a genre that has historically prided itself on storytelling as one of its key strengths.

WrCKjPt.jpg


Now, back to Chrono Trigger. You know it, you love it. Everybody loves it. It's widely considered to be easily one of the best JRPG's ever made, and many believe it to sit comfortably at the top of the pack to this day. There's a lot to praise when discussing Chrono Trigger, from its art style to memorable characters, time-travel conceit, and snappy combat that eschewed random encounters before that was en vogue for the genre. And you'll often hear developers working in the industry today citing Chrono Trigger as having shaped their interests and tastes as both players and developers.

But by god I think if there's one aspect of Chrono Trigger's design that I wish more JRPG developers would implement in their games it's its perfectly reasonable length. CT is a game that can be finished in the range of 20-25 hours on a first playthrough. And you know what? That's a huge part of why its pacing is so highly regarded. There's just far less filler and repetition at the heart of CT's design, and I think that enhances the experience beyond what many people might even be conscious of. With its many alternate endings and manageable runtime, CT is one of the few JRPG's that is genuinely fun to replay. How many 70-100-hour slogs can you honestly say you'd like to revisit one day?

033792.jpg


What sparked the thought behind this article is playing through Ys VIII after finishing both Ys Origin and Ys: Oath in Felghana before it. The Ys games are ARPG's, but while the earlier games were very lean affairs, the modern entries like VIII and IX lean much more heavily into modern JRPG conventions when it comes to length and padding. Don't get me wrong, I'm still enjoying Ys VIII quite a bit, but the whole time I keep wishing that it had the focus and brevity of its predecessors. For me, at least, very few games' gameplay can stand up to 30, 40, or god forbid 50+ hours.

jMdxzCb.jpg
vmi2UNa.jpg


The end result of this trend for me, personally, is that I damn near never finish most JRPG's no matter how enthralled I am by their opening 25% or 50%. What say you, ERA?
 
Last edited:

Somniac

Banned
Oct 10, 2021
195
Considering most JRPGs fail to do anything to justify the 40 hour length, I'm inclined to agree. While some games would absolutely be less engaging experiences if they tried to trim the fat (FF7, Persona, Trails of etc) a lot of games could easily go from 40 hours to 25-30 and not lose too terribly much.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
this has been a reoccurring issue for me on Era, but your images aren't working
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,549
Considering most JRPGs fail to do anything to justify the 40 hour length, I'm inclined to agree. While some games would absolutely be less engaging experiences if they tried to trim the fat (FF7, Persona, Trails of etc) a lot of games could easily go from 40 hours to 25-30 and not lose too terribly much.

I honestly think all three of the Social Link Persona games are horribly paced and take way too long to finish. Persona 5 Royal is an absolute joke with how long it is.
 

Robin

Restless Insomniac
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,502
20-25 hours is a good spot for a JRPG if a lot of that time is gameplay. I think a lot of games these days with big story slogs, unskippable cutscenes, it makes sense that these will be a bit longer in the tooth, which is fine. I do agree that some JRPGs are just too long. I'd rather the story be tighter and then backload the game with bonus content. This all being said, I appreciate a diversity in game length.
 

oakenhild

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,871
I'm playing through Golden Sun now and was relieved when I saw how short it was to complete the main story.
 

bounchfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,654
Muricas
Definitely one of the reasons I don't play many games in the genre these days. Ain't got time for a bloated 60-80+ hour experience. Gimmick them 15-30 hour jpgs and you got my attention. Great post.
 

Atom

Member
Jul 25, 2021
11,423
My recent playthrough of ff vii remake was 30 hours and was super relieved. Even the draggy parts didn't drag as much as I remembered.

More than a short playtime though I love if a JRPG can have a turbo mode. Like for instance I beat trails of cold steel 1 and 2, ostensibly something like 60 hours each, in 40 hours for both with liberal use of turbo.

My replay of ff ix was 20 hours with turbo mode on for battles and world map traversal. Just a great QoL feature that needs to be in more games. Often it's not just that the game is long, it's that the literal act of playing the game is slow.

Generally less applicable to the Sprite based rpgs, but since the shift to 3d, especially early ps1 and ps2, the use of animations, transitions, cutscenes etc. And generally speaking load times all add up over the course of a playthrough.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,256
Midgar, With Love
I love the long ones, personally.

But breezier fare can be quite good as well. Chrono Trigger perhaps best of all.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,052
Arguably the biggest problem with turn-based JRPGs is that trash mobs make the gameplay repetitive. This might be okay in a pure dungeon crawler that's mostly focused on combat and managing resources throughout a dungeon, but in a story-based game it becomes a drag. Most turn-based JRPGs would probably be better if the number of encounters was straight-up cut in half.
 

psynergyadept

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,595
Though I like my long JRPGs I agree with you 100%! It's why it is getting difficult to recommend said genre to newcomers and why I scratch my head when people recommended Persona,Dragon Quest, Xenoblade to them. That's why they get burnt out so fast of the genre; not everyone has the commitment for a 40+ hour game. You're going to have to go back like two gens for some good ~20-40 hours JRPGs as most of the main devs cater to the seasoned fans.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,325
I think what's more important is its *pacing*. It and Resident Evil 4 are the two most perfectly paced games ever made in my opinion.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,791
Brazil
One thing that i learned with Jrpg communities in the internet is that they don't care about brevity. The average jrpg fan loves this overly long games with too many battles. That's why the biggest budget stuff in the genre are like that.

Meanwhile, there's A LOT of indie Jrpg styled games that are paced similar to Chrono Trigger, but they don't have the same marketing force and people that would enjoy them either moved completely to other genres or simply has not a radar big enough.

So, the thing is, the same person that wants Jrpgs to be shorter and better paced, 100% ignores the existence of indie stuff that does exactly that. I mean, how many people in this thread played Shadows of Adam, Pier Solar, Cosmic Star Heroine, Ara Fell?

There's demand, there's offer but a lot of the ones that makes the demand ignores the offer.
 

phanboy4

Member
Oct 27, 2017
413
This is why I loved Panzer Dragoon Saga.

It tells a 20-25 hour story in world that's more fleshed out than games twice that long.

Sadly, the evolutionary line went the other way, and we got longer and longer and more padded and repetitive JRPGs as the expected norm - a trend that is directly related to the genre's general decline in popularity.
 

moonbeam

Member
Nov 11, 2017
312
I would be interested in checking out more JRPGs if I didn't feel they had a lot of padding. I do however have other issues with JRPGs, for example art style and apparent intended audience. But back to brevity, for someone who highly values his time, I'm all for maximizing "fun/hr". A length of say 20-30 hrs sounds just about perfect for me.
 

irishonion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,220
Playing through YS VIII now, and I do love the game, but yea I'm at the endish of it now. Some of the chapters could have been shorter.. should have been shorter lol.
 

Doorman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,834
Michigan
I think there's room in the industry for both sorts of lengths and experiences, but for my personal sake I agree that it'd be nice to have more well-presented JRPGs that feel meaty but don't end up going so completely overboard with busywork or side-content that I lose my momentum to play, because it can be really hard to get it back again once I've stopped on those sorts of games for more than a couple of days. This is the reason why I own but have only ever at most made it like half-way through any Xenoblade game. Likewise for Octopath Traveler which I was really enjoying, until I abruptly stopped for a bit and thus wound up trapped in game limbo; away for too long to jump right back in and pick up whatever I'd been doing, but knowing the game is too long for me to want to start over from scratch. Meanwhile one of my favorite RPGs ever is Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga, and since that can be breezed through within 20 hours and the main story is pretty tightly paced, it's never an issue to jump in or out whenever I feel like it.
More experiences where I felt like I could dig into most all of what the game has to offer within 20-40 hours instead of 60-70 would be great. This can of course vary a bit depending on how interesting and/or quick the battle system is and how compelling non-combat gameplay elements are in the rest of the game.
 

Larrikin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,712
Though I like my long JRPGs I agree with you 100%! It's why it is getting difficult to recommend said genre to newcomers and why I scratch my head when people recommended Persona,Dragon Quest, Xenoblade to them. That's why they get burnt out so fast of the genre; not everyone has the commitment for a 40+ hour game. You're going to have to go back like two gens for some good ~20-40 hours JRPGs as most of the main devs cater to the seasoned fans.
....NO mention of Golden Sun Mr psynergyadept?

I think it's an interesting solution to the problem. Each of the GBA games is 20-30 hours depending on things and it's a really good sweet spot, but both games togteher is your typical RPG fare. Splitting it up was raelly good for pacing, and for allowing a different cast of characters to show up. It's really elegant.
 

Flame Lord

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,796
Eh, I played through CT for the first time a few months back and the thing I always heard it praised for above all else was its pacing, and it ended up amounting to exactly what I thought it would: it's short. Not a bad thing but it just feels shallow to me overall because it doesn't have the time to flesh out anything.
 

RavenK92

Member
Nov 3, 2020
799
While I agree with your premise, I will say Persona 5 Royal is worth revisiting for the soundtrack alone (hence I've played it twice already)
 

psynergyadept

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,595
....NO mention of Golden Sun Mr psynergyadept?

I think it's an interesting solution to the problem. Each of the GBA games is 20-30 hours depending on things and it's a really good sweet spot, but both games togteher is your typical RPG fare. Splitting it up was raelly good for pacing, and for allowing a different cast of characters to show up. It's really elegant.

LOL! I wasn't really thinking of recommendations for this thread! but YES! Golden Sun(and the lost age) tells a nice story and a decent amount of time! Sure would nice if Nintendo could port those over one of this days…

but my point got confirmed by that recommendation and with the OP with Chrono Trigger; is that you're going to have to go backwards to find some decent length games(besides some indie titles) in the JRPG department.
 

5taquitos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,876
OR
Arguably the biggest problem with turn-based JRPGs is that trash mobs make the gameplay repetitive. This might be okay in a pure dungeon crawler that's mostly focused on combat and managing resources throughout a dungeon, but in a story-based game it becomes a drag. Most turn-based JRPGs would probably be better if the number of encounters was straight-up cut in half.
I'd like to see someone try to really make battles important and noteworthy. Maybe the dungeon just has two battles, but they're intense battles with unique mechanics, and they serve to move the story forward in a meaningful way.

I'd rather spend 20-30 minutes on two really challenging and engaging battles that utilized all the game's systems than spend the same amount of time fighting 50 random trash mobs.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,499
One of many reasons why Shadow Hearts is so good. ~20 hour story, brisk pacing, no boring moments whatsoever. The next two games were significantly longer though.

Edit: though I don't mind longer games at all. Dragon Quest 7 is about 70 hours long, Dragon Quest 11 is even longer if you go for the real ending. Love them both to bits and never get tired of playing them, a good game is a good game.
 

Wishbone Ash

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
3,829
Michigan
Almost every RPG that has been ingrained in my brain as a favorite agree with you OP. I am way too often annoyed by sluggish playthroughs and excessive, obnoxious padding
 

AstralSphere

Member
Feb 10, 2021
8,963
Yeah I agree completely OP. So rarely do I ever finish a JRPG despite starting so many of them.

I think it's more than just pure length that is the problem though. Pacing in general in the JRPG genre is pretty much awful 90% of the time, whether it's stagnating plots, long stretches of gameplay with no story/long stretches of story with no gameplay, and constant interruptions for inconsequential character dialogue that just repeats story beats you heard before (and often literally in the scene prior).

I always keep buying them because I have such a strong fondness for the genre due to my history with it growing up, but modern JRPG developers really need to take a look at tightening up the formula into a less baggy package.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,852
chrono trigger is just. a short game..that's not brevity per se, it's just fucking short. brevity would be like, lucca has the same amount of development as a female protagonist in persona 5 in a shorter amount of time, which isn't true.
 

Lindsay

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,131
Now, back to Chrono Trigger. You know it, you love it. Everybody loves it. It's widely considered to be easily one of the best JRPG's ever made, and many believe it to sit comfortably at the top of the pack to this day. There's a lot to praise when discussing Chrono Trigger, from its art style to memorable characters, time-travel conceit, and snappy combat that eschewed random encounters before that was en vogue for the genre.
Whaaaaat? I don't like Chrono Trigger. I absolutely don't care for the combat or the countless forced (but not random!) encounters! Also were random encounters really en vogue as you say? Cause I can think of a bunch of jrpgs back then which lacked 'em. Mana games, Earthbound, Shining Forces, FF MQ, Mario RPG, Ys, Lufia 2 and more!! An I'll usually disagree about random encounters even being a bad thing/design choice cause it totally isn't.

But by god I think if there's one aspect of Chrono Trigger's design that I wish more JRPG developers would implement in their games it's its perfectly reasonable length. CT is a game that can be finished in the range of 20-25 hours on a first playthrough. And you know what? That's a huge part of why its pacing is so highly regarded. There's just far less filler and repetition at the heart of CT's design, and I think that enhances the experience beyond what many people might even be conscious of. With its many alternate endings and manageable runtime, CT is one of the few JRPG's that is genuinely fun to replay. How many 70-100-hour slogs can you honestly say you'd like to revisit one day?
I agree 20~ hours is a usually a great length for rpgs but using CT as an example doesn't work for me since a big chunk of its tail end is "optional but not really" padding. You're no longer progressing/finishing the story but off on random sidequests to power up in order to beat the game. That stuff coulda been better intertwined with the main game or saved for as post-game stuff. As for 70+ hours jrpgs I can't think of any I've played that I'd wanna replay without some kind of NG+. I think I can count one 1 hand the number of 70+ hour ones I've played however. Maybe you're unlucky or should start avoiding Persona games lol.
 

Funkybee

Member
Feb 20, 2019
2,240
20-25 hours should be the norm for jrpgs. The only one i played and finished in 70 hours was octopath traveler which to be frank has quite good material and the music/battle system was very fun to mess with. Longest hours i've ever put in a single player game.
 

ConVito

Member
Oct 16, 2018
3,087
It's the cutscenes/exposition overload that kills me. Looking at you, Tales of Arise.
I tend to love longer games, but goddamn yeah. Playing through this now and it's kind of insane how often there's a cutscene with some big revelation, followed by minutes of the characters reacting to that revelation, then a different kind of cutscene reiterating what happened in the previous one, then ambient dialogue about the revelation, then an extended mandatory skit discussing the revelation, then 3 consecutive skits about how each character is affected by the revelation (spoiler, they mostly aren't).

Suffice it to say, my phone gets a lot of use during this game.
 

atomsk eater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,828
Seeing 60-80+ hours of content! on the back of the box was a big selling point when I was a kid who could only get maybe 3 games a year. As an adult who can barely pay attention to anything for that long, it means I've got a long string of unfinished jrpgs. I'd appreciate if most of them could tell their stories in 30 hours or less, maybe put in extra/optional content for those who want to keep going.
 

Somniac

Banned
Oct 10, 2021
195
I honestly think all three of the Social Link Persona games are horribly paced and take way too long to finish. Persona 5 Royal is an absolute joke with how long it is.
Between you and me, I really don't like the modern Persona games, but I understand why they are as long as they are and I think the social sim aspect of the game justifies itself well enough to not feel like outright padding.
 

Skoje

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,538
I knew this was going to be a pacing thread.... It seems to be the hot button with all the cool kids now-a-days
 

zoodoo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,734
Montreal
That's why I dont play modern jrpgs. So much padding. It started during the ps2 era and went insane after that. Crafting, social links, dull side quests, mini games and 90% of the time those are awful to play through.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,099
sometimes even games that aren't 50 hours long feel too padded.

I'm about to finish Paper Mario 2 and fuck me I feel like there's at least 5 hours you could have trimmed from this just be shortening some of the frankly unnecessarily drawn out segments of the game. I think HLTB says 30.5 hours, but it took me notably longer and I'm not even being thorough.
 

chaobreaker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,541
*cough* the Pokemon RPGs all have campaigns that can be beaten in 25-30 hours tops. Though the modern entries do have some serious pacing problems.
 

John Omaha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,866
One thing that i learned with Jrpg communities in the internet is that they don't care about brevity. The average jrpg fan loves this overly long games with too many battles. That's why the biggest budget stuff in the genre are like that.

Meanwhile, there's A LOT of indie Jrpg styled games that are paced similar to Chrono Trigger, but they don't have the same marketing force and people that would enjoy them either moved completely to other genres or simply has not a radar big enough.

So, the thing is, the same person that wants Jrpgs to be shorter and better paced, 100% ignores the existence of indie stuff that does exactly that. I mean, how many people in this thread played Shadows of Adam, Pier Solar, Cosmic Star Heroine, Ara Fell?

There's demand, there's offer but a lot of the ones that makes the demand ignores the offer.
I know that making games is expensive, hard, time consuming and that indie developers are doing the best with what they got, but when people say they want modern JRPGs to do something, they're usually looking for something modern and with a decent budget. There aren't a lot of offers on that front, though interestingly enough, some recent shorter JRPGs have done very well (Nier Automata, FF7R, Paper Mario the Origami King, among others).
 

Merc_

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,526
I can't blame any game for being long because a large amount of people always ding games when they clock in at 10-20 hours or lower.
 

Karsha

Member
May 1, 2020
2,502
I don't feel that its brevity rather than the pacing. Most modern RPG have stupid amount of sidequests or main plot that goes nowhere, nothing in Chrono is useless, every single bit of progression you make is connected to the main plot, even the side quests are. Game could have been 50 hours and still would have been a classic, you don't feel the hours when the progression is good, it makes you want to play more to see what will happen next
 

Altazor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,145
Chile
Chrono Trigger has no filler, imho. At least the OG version (the unending fetchquest added to the DS version, however...)

And its pacing is amazing - you're always in almost urgent need to do something while still being able to explore a bit... it's just that the game's sidequests are essentially all offered near the end of the game and they're not really 'side'quests inasmuch as integral part of the experience. They all flesh out the world and/or your companions.
God I love that game so so much.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,951
May be its not possible to make anything better than Chrono Trigger.

(I am still fascinated by SNES JRPG games, like CT was <3MB or something and FF6 was something similar. The size of a couple of in-game screen shots in .png at 1080p, fucking hell!)
 

mattiewheels

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,107
Yeah, how do these jrpgs get worse and worse at pacing after so many years? People liked jrpgs because they crackled along like little Star Wars/ Indiana Jones type stories.
 

Phendrana

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,049
Melbourne, Australia
I used to love RPG's as a kid, but I basically ignore the genre these days. They almost never justify their length, and are just padded to death.

And then you have a game like Persona 5 where it doesn't even reuse content all that much, but it's still like 80 hours too long.

Persona 5 Royal would absolutely be a much better game if it was 40-50 hours total.
 

thetrin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,631
Atlanta, GA
20-25 hours is a good spot for a JRPG if a lot of that time is gameplay. I think a lot of games these days with big story slogs, unskippable cutscenes, it makes sense that these will be a bit longer in the tooth, which is fine. I do agree that some JRPGs are just too long. I'd rather the story be tighter and then backload the game with bonus content. This all being said, I appreciate a diversity in game length.

oof, 25 is too short for me if its an RPG. I tend to prefer something closer to 50 hours.