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ymgve

Member
Oct 31, 2017
549
How do people feel about the boss fights in this game? Apart from the lion (Where you could just hang out near Mama's base and have actual GROUND to walk on that didn't disappear within seconds), I thought they were all garbage. Especially some late game bosses that didn't seem interested in engaging or attacking at all. Which I'm somewhat grateful for, because the ONLY way to beat them was to trudge through tar to get to the quad rocket launcher because that is the only weapon that could reasonably make a dent in their comically oversized HP pool.
 

driveninhifi

Member
Jun 7, 2018
119
Jeff on yesterday's episode of the Bombcast insinuated with Brad that there was some singularly stupid line in the game that made both their heads spin that they didn't want to spoil.

Any ideas of what that could be? For me it was definitely:
"Like Mario and Princess "Beach" "
Yeah that would be my guess. But getting mad at that line, at that point in time seems a little funny. The game fully committed to being totally ridiculous at least 45min before then.

I loved everything about this game. Gameplay, Story, Graphics, music, ending... But one question bothers me a bit. Why did Amelie work with Higgs to do terrorist attacks? What was her gain here? Putting pressure/motivation on Bridges/Sam to build the chiral network faster?

I think Kojima just really wanted another twist. It doesn't really make sense. Personally I feel like it completely undermines the message if the person driving you to reconnect everyone is only doing it so she can kill them all.

Also I was waiting for "She played us like a damn fiddle!" - huge missed opportunity there Hideo!
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
I think Kojima just really wanted another twist. It doesn't really make sense. Personally I feel like it completely undermines the message if the person driving you to reconnect everyone is only doing it so she can kill them all.
thematically it makes perfect sense. maybe not in the literal plot sense but if within the context of the game's anti-American message the president working with this terrorist leader to keep people scared so she could complete her (vile) project and sell it to the public under a false pretext.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Jeff on yesterday's episode of the Bombcast insinuated with Brad that there was some singularly stupid line in the game that made both their heads spin that they didn't want to spoil.

Any ideas of what that could be? For me it was definitely:
"Like Mario and Princess "Beach" "
Well you're in the spoiler thread, so no need to tag it.

And it was maybe that, maybe Fragile's line before she punched Higgs.

Both were pretty weak, but neither was freakout-worthy either. Both were throw-away lines.

I loved everything about this game. Gameplay, Story, Graphics, music, ending... But one question bothers me a bit. Why did Amelie work with Higgs to do terrorist attacks? What was her gain here? Putting pressure/motivation on Bridges/Sam to build the chiral network faster?
Yes, her long-game goal was to use him to get the network up faster so she could unleash the Final Strand. The threat of and her ultimate capture by Higgs provided Sam with the motivation he needed to get it done.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
Yes, her long-game goal was to use him to get the network up faster so she could unleash the Final Strand. The threat of and her ultimate capture by Higgs provided Sam with the motivation he needed to get it done.
simplifying it obviously, but one of the ideas i took from the game was "america will pretend to be your friend, but they are fucking you over in the end"
 

efr

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jun 19, 2019
2,893
simplifying it obviously, but one of the ideas i took from the game was "america will pretend to be your friend, but they are fucking you over in the end"
She wanted to fast forward her EE and make Sam make a choice. She was tired of waiting, having Higgs speed up the process was part of the plan to motivate Sam to ultimately get there faster
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
She wanted to fast forward her EE and make Sam make a choice. She was tired of waiting, having Higgs speed up the process was part of the plan to motivate Sam to ultimately get there faster
i'm not entirely sure what you mean. i mean, yes, that's what happened. sorry i don't mean for this to sound rude or snarky i just genuinely am not sure if this is supposed to be contradicting my point or not
 

efr

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jun 19, 2019
2,893
i'm not entirely sure what you mean. i mean, yes, that's what happened. sorry i don't mean for this to sound rude or snarky i just genuinely am not sure if this is supposed to be contradicting my point or not
Read the reply history of what you replied to.
 

SusumuStreet

Member
Jan 2, 2018
328
I haven't gone through this entire thread, but after finishing it, am I missing something or is the entire story hot garbage that makes no sense? The universe itself 'cares' that all matter wasn't canceled out by antimatter (which if it was, just means the universe would be filled with massless radiation anyway, not fail to exist entirely), so it gives literal sentience to extinction events like the global freezing, meteors, and plant algae that have destroyed ~70-85% of life in the past.

...Except if the universe's 'motivation' has to do with the presence of physical matter, why the hell does 550 billion tonnes of biomass on our little blue marble of a planet mean jack shit when that accounts for less that one percent, of one percent, of one percent, of one percent, of one percent of the mass of the Earth itself (550 billion tonnes / 5.9 sextillion tonnes = 9.2e-11 percent), which itself is further dwarfed compared to most other planets, stars, or just about every other cosmic body.

Like okay, Koji wants to make a story about the human experience, connection, togetherness, etc. so why not steal more thematic elements from Interstellar than try to shoehorn in some pop-sci buzzword laden nonsense about sentient extinctions? At this point I'm more interested in the story of the Sephiroth dinosaur who summoned Meteor to end the Cretaceous, dude's probably got a wild story to tell. Also what was the sentient algae thinking when it sucked the oxygen out of the ocean over a few thousand years to kill the trilobites, were they playing a weird slow motion version of Plants v Zombies?

Everything involving the characters is also just dumb luck? A 20 yr old (obviously before she was president) got chosen to be the god of death because she had an NDE? And then she kind of does, but kind of doesn't, but still kind of does want to tear off the bandaid that is life on Earth but also still likes people and wants to connect them, but will still do it anyway, but wants baby Sam to stop her because she chooses to do it, blah blah blah.

And the characters are all exposition robots who act like automatons poorly mimicking humans. Supposedly loving father and devoted husband Cliff risks life and limb to save his child...who he permanently refers to as BB (bridge baby, a thing). Like what loving parent refers to their child by their social security number or as some other categoric identifier? ("I love you Homosapien #6138, listen to me sing you lullabies. Let me risk my life to save you from this laboratory hell, Homosapien #6138! No you bastards, you can't keep my little Homosapien #6138 locked up here, I love it!")

Like I really came to enjoy the gameplay. Getting in the swing of planning routes, methodically navigating the the beautifully haunting landscapes, building structures that other players interact with in their own splintered parallel universes, etc. all turned out to be more fun than I had imagined. The "cities" sucked ass (FF12 had infinitely more lifelike settlements on the PS2, come on). I was initially in the boat with people who wanted combat, but in the end I kind of wished they removed combat entirely, or at least the bosses (grenade big health bar thing until health bar goes to zero is a shitty boss design, making them puzzles or something Shadow of the Colossus-lite that used your navigation and balancing mechanics would have been infinitely more interesting).

But god, that half baked, poorly researched, buzzword filled (I'm Higgs, the God Particle! Jesus Christ), contradictory nonsense story with shittily written robot people...it wound up being so aggressively stupid that it killed whatever small but poignant message about human connectivity was buried in there somewhere.

/rant
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
I haven't gone through this entire thread, but after finishing it, am I missing something or is the entire story hot garbage that makes no sense? The universe itself 'cares' that all matter wasn't canceled out by antimatter (which if it was, just means the universe would be filled with massless radiation anyway, not fail to exist entirely), so it gives literal sentience to extinction events like the global freezing, warming, and meteors that have destroyed ~70-85% of life in the past.

...Except if the universe's 'motivation' has to do with the presence of physical matter, why the hell does 550 billion tonnes of biomass on our little blue marble of a planet mean jack shit when that accounts for less that one percent, of one percent, of one percent, of one percent, of one percent of the mass of the Earth itself (550 billion tonnes / 5.9 sextillion tonnes = 9.2e-11 percent), which itself is further dwarfed compared to most other planets, stars, or just about every other cosmic body.

Like okay, Koji wants to make a story about the human experience, connection, togetherness, etc. so why not steal more thematic elements from Interstellar than try to shoehorn in some pop-sci buzzword laden nonsense about sentient extinctions? At this point I'm more interested in the story of the Sephiroth dinosaur who summoned Meteor to end the Cretaceous, dude's probably got a wild story to tell. Also what was the sentient algae thinking when it sucked the oxygen out of the ocean over a few thousand years to kill the trilobites, were they playing a weird slow motion version of Plants v Zombies?

Everything involving the characters is also just dumb luck? A 20 yr old (obviously before she was president) got chosen to be the god of death because she had an NDE? And then she kind of does, but kind of doesn't, but still kind of does want to tear off the bandaid that is life on Earth but also still likes people and wants to connect them, but will still do it anyway, but wants baby Sam to stop her because she chooses to do it, blah blah blah.

And the characters are all exposition robots who act like automatons poorly mimicking humans. Supposedly loving father and devoted husband Cliff risks life and limb to save his child...who he permanently refers to as BB (bridge baby). Like what loving parent refers to their child by their social security number or as some other categoric identifier? ("I love you Homosapien #6138, listen to me sing you lullabies. Let me risk my life to save you from this laboratory hell, Homosapien #6138! No you bastards, you can't keep my little Homosapien #6138 locked up here, I love it!")

Like I really came to enjoy the gameplay. Getting in the swing of planning routes, methodically navigating the the beautifully haunting landscapes, building structures that other players interact with in their own splintered parallel universes, etc. all turned out to be more fun than I had imagined. The "cities" sucked ass (FF12 had infinitely more lifelike settlements on the PS2, come on). I was initially in the boat with people who wanted combat, but in the end I kind of wished they removed combat entirely, or at least the bosses (grenade big health bar thing until health bar goes to zero is a shitty boss design, making them puzzles or something Shadow of the Colossus-lite that used your navigation and balancing mechanics would have been infinitely more interesting).

But god, that half baked, poorly researched, buzzword filled (I'm Higgs, the God Particle! Jesus Christ), contradictory nonsense story with shittily written robot people...it wound up being so aggressively stupid that it killed whatever small but poignant message about human connectivity was buried in there somewhere.

/rant
Yes, you are missing something: some imagination. And maybe a dash of fun wouldn't hurt.

Pretty sure I'd hate to watch any sort of science fiction with you.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
"How can you value life if you're not afraid of death?" has to be one of the very worst lines in a game with so many of them.

Sam is immortal and obviously cares a lot about Louise, what are you talking about, Sam.

That Die-Hardman cutscene is so conflicting because the animation is so good and the actor is trying so hard but literally every line is horrible.
 

Plumpman

Member
Jan 24, 2018
1,021
So if the five figures in the sky represent the five previous extinction entities, why are they all humanoid?
Humans didn't exist during the first couple extinctions. Is it just how we interpret them?
 

SusumuStreet

Member
Jan 2, 2018
328
User warned: Hostility
Yes, you are missing something: some imagination. And maybe a dash of fun wouldn't hurt.

Pretty sure I'd hate to watch any sort of science fiction with you.

Oh fuck off. I love sci-fi precisely because it's fun to imagine the what-ifs and think through the implications tiny changes can have. Like for video games, Mass Effect's entire universe of wild and interesting things stems from the simple premise of being able to manipulate the mass of things (or wrap them in a mass shroud that temporarily negates their mass, don't recall the specifics). That tiny bit of technology has far reaching implications that with all sorts of fun things to consider. And elaborate, beautifully intricate worlds with fun technology and social allegories can exist in perfect, internally-consistent harmony with things like Dune or the Ian Banks's Culture series.

If you're too dull to engage with the story on any level other than letting it wash over your eyes and ears without processing what it's saying, then that's on you.

My take away from your blather is you like DS, and felt the need to make a personal attack in some shitty nerd rage spas out because someone bothered to think about it and criticize its failings...rather than, you know, engage with the ideas of either the work itself or the criticism.

In summary, eat my whole ass and try engaging with the content next time, instead of knee jerk insulting the messenger.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
So if the five figures in the sky represent the five previous extinction entities, why are they all humanoid?
Humans didn't exist during the first couple extinctions. Is it just how we interpret them?
I don't think they were. I actually thought it was:
  • Die-Hardman
  • Heartman
  • Deadman
  • Lockne
  • Fragile
The 5 people who were looking for him, whose voices we heard. Further confirmed by Amelie pointing to them with whatever her line was about people coming to save him.

"How can you value life if you're not afraid of death?" has to be one of the very worst lines in a game with so many of them.

Sam is immortal and obviously cares a lot about Louise, what are you talking about, Sam.
I'm not sure Sam's mortality or lack therein is a requirement or pre-requisite for him to recognize a potential flaw in the character of someone looking to be a leader in a world hanging on by a strand. In fact, he might be the most qualified to recognize it. And outside of Lou, it's been clear throughout the game that Sam really doesn't value life anymore, including his own. It's not like he chose to be akin to an immortal. It was forced upon him.

That Die-Hardman cutscene is so conflicting because the animation is so good and the actor is trying so hard but literally every line is horrible.
wut.

weird takes in here today.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
I haven't gone through this entire thread, but after finishing it, am I missing something or is the entire story hot garbage that makes no sense? The universe itself 'cares' that all matter wasn't canceled out by antimatter (which if it was, just means the universe would be filled with massless radiation anyway, not fail to exist entirely), so it gives literal sentience to extinction events like the global freezing, meteors, and plant algae that have destroyed ~70-85% of life in the past.

...Except if the universe's 'motivation' has to do with the presence of physical matter, why the hell does 550 billion tonnes of biomass on our little blue marble of a planet mean jack shit when that accounts for less that one percent, of one percent, of one percent, of one percent, of one percent of the mass of the Earth itself (550 billion tonnes / 5.9 sextillion tonnes = 9.2e-11 percent), which itself is further dwarfed compared to most other planets, stars, or just about every other cosmic body.

Like okay, Koji wants to make a story about the human experience, connection, togetherness, etc. so why not steal more thematic elements from Interstellar than try to shoehorn in some pop-sci buzzword laden nonsense about sentient extinctions? At this point I'm more interested in the story of the Sephiroth dinosaur who summoned Meteor to end the Cretaceous, dude's probably got a wild story to tell. Also what was the sentient algae thinking when it sucked the oxygen out of the ocean over a few thousand years to kill the trilobites, were they playing a weird slow motion version of Plants v Zombies?

Everything involving the characters is also just dumb luck? A 20 yr old (obviously before she was president) got chosen to be the god of death because she had an NDE? And then she kind of does, but kind of doesn't, but still kind of does want to tear off the bandaid that is life on Earth but also still likes people and wants to connect them, but will still do it anyway, but wants baby Sam to stop her because she chooses to do it, blah blah blah.

And the characters are all exposition robots who act like automatons poorly mimicking humans. Supposedly loving father and devoted husband Cliff risks life and limb to save his child...who he permanently refers to as BB (bridge baby, a thing). Like what loving parent refers to their child by their social security number or as some other categoric identifier? ("I love you Homosapien #6138, listen to me sing you lullabies. Let me risk my life to save you from this laboratory hell, Homosapien #6138! No you bastards, you can't keep my little Homosapien #6138 locked up here, I love it!")

Like I really came to enjoy the gameplay. Getting in the swing of planning routes, methodically navigating the the beautifully haunting landscapes, building structures that other players interact with in their own splintered parallel universes, etc. all turned out to be more fun than I had imagined. The "cities" sucked ass (FF12 had infinitely more lifelike settlements on the PS2, come on). I was initially in the boat with people who wanted combat, but in the end I kind of wished they removed combat entirely, or at least the bosses (grenade big health bar thing until health bar goes to zero is a shitty boss design, making them puzzles or something Shadow of the Colossus-lite that used your navigation and balancing mechanics would have been infinitely more interesting).

But god, that half baked, poorly researched, buzzword filled (I'm Higgs, the God Particle! Jesus Christ), contradictory nonsense story with shittily written robot people...it wound up being so aggressively stupid that it killed whatever small but poignant message about human connectivity was buried in there somewhere.

/rant

To each their own but I found the story throughout the game to be engrossing and beautiful. I love how each of the characters are emphasized with each passing episode and their pay offs work incredibly well through the narrative. It's far from hot garbage. To call it that is really disingenuous. You seem to be really hung up on disliking the cast even down to their names so I doubt anything anyone will say will convince you otherwise, but just know a lot of people will strongly disagree with you.
 

SusumuStreet

Member
Jan 2, 2018
328
To each their own but I found the story throughout the game to be engrossing and beautiful. I love how each of the characters are emphasized with each passing episode and their pay offs work incredibly well through the narrative. It's far from hot garbage. To call it that is really disingenuous. You seem to be really hung up on disliking the cast even down to their names so I doubt anything anyone will say will convince you otherwise, but just know a lot of people will strongly disagree with you.
That's a bit of an odd take from my entire post. The character names aren't my favorite but I only criticized Higgs just because of the direct reference to the Higgs-Boson being referenced as the God Particle in a surface level pop-sci buzzword sense. And the BB thing isn't its name, which is my exact point. It's in direct conflict with Cliff being a real person who has human emotions to have him refer to his own child he's willing to die to save by its laboratory code name all the way through his attempt to break it out.

But the characters are just the minor points to my biggest issues with the story which has fundamentally fatal flaws that makes it internally inconsistent. The goofy characters who act like Wikipedia exposition articles are just typical anime storytelling that I'm used to after all the MGS stuff. Not my favorite but that's really just presentation and not anything I would write a post about on its own.

My real issue is that after all the cool and mysterious imagery and allusions and letting the player's imagination run wild as to why the world exists in its current state, when the core of the story, world building, and root of the game's universe are finally revealed, it's a broken poorly researched mess that doesn't make sense by its own logic. If you're only in it to watch the cool cutscenes (which are terrifically animated and rendered) then it may not bother you. But if you actually like engaging with the story and sci-fi elements, and the hows and whys of its logic and what the larger implications would be, it collapses under its own weight by its own logic. The worst part is there are ways that it could have been fixed, but instead it was haphazardly assembled seemingly for the sole purpose of some neat visuals and nothing more.
 

Lonestar

Roll Tahd, Pawl
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
3,556
Blind posting so I don't read anything as I haven't come close to finishing:

Chapter 3 side NPC spoiler (Junk Dealer)
So, have to go to the Junk Dealer, who is of the "I hate everything variety", the story proceeds along that he's pissed cause of grieving over his lost love. Story further proceeds to show she's not dead, leading to go talk to her, bring her back to the Junk Dealer, and they're happy and she wants to marry him. Everything proceeds smoothly.

20 minutes later, get an email, and the Junk Dealer hates being married and would rather be alone.


What was the point of all of that???

Death Marriage Stranding
 

Deleted member 16365

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,127
This thread is interesting. People either hate the boring gameplay but like the story, or hate the dumb story but laud the gameplay.

I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle. I fucking hated the early gameplay where you're on foot the entire time. Once I stole a Mule truck the game got instantly better. The story was interesting, but not without its eyerolling moments, or cringe-worthy scripting. Maybe its because this is my thirteenth Kojima game that I'm sort of used to both elements being okay at best.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
That's a bit of an odd take from my entire post. The character names aren't my favorite but I only criticized Higgs just because of the direct reference to the Higgs-Boson being referenced as the God Particle in a surface level pop-sci buzzword sense. And the BB thing isn't its name, which is my exact point. It's in direct conflict with Cliff being a real person who has human emotions to have him refer to his own child he's willing to die to save by its laboratory code name all the way through his attempt to break it out.

But the characters are just the minor points to my biggest issues with the story which has fundamentally fatal flaws that makes it internally inconsistent. The goofy characters who act like Wikipedia exposition articles are just typical anime storytelling that I'm used to after all the MGS stuff. Not my favorite but that's really just presentation and not anything I would write a post about on its own.

My real issue is that after all the cool and mysterious imagery and allusions and letting the player's imagination run wild as to why the world exists in its current state, when the core of the story, world building, and root of the game's universe are finally revealed, it's a broken poorly researched mess that doesn't make sense by its own logic. If you're only in it to watch the cool cutscenes (which are terrifically animated and rendered) then it may not bother you. But if you actually like engaging with the story and sci-fi elements, and the hows and whys of its logic and what the larger implications would be, it collapses under its own weight by its own logic. The worst part is there are ways that it could have been fixed, but instead it was haphazardly assembled seemingly for the sole purpose of some neat visuals and nothing more.

It's definitely a factor of different tastes, because in another one of your posts you mention Mass Effect as being a good example of a story, yet I really did not care for that game at all in large part to the tale it tried to weave. I like Death Strandings Extinction Entities and find them fascinating. It all works logically in my mind even if you aren't connecting with it or believing it yourself. Something I really loved about the games story is that everything is nicely explained and the existential beings aren't completely out of the realm of believability within it's world. It works wonderfully all while hosting some incredibly fine performances from the voice work down to the mocap animations. I sincerely loved every facet about Death Strandings story. The only nitpick I would ever hold against it is how the dialog often will hit the viewer over the head with a metaphor or message that seems obvious. But when telling a story like this one I can't blame the writers to want and make sure as many people can understand it as possible.
 
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Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
Blind posting so I don't read anything as I haven't come close to finishing:

Chapter 3 side NPC spoiler (Junk Dealer)
So, have to go to the Junk Dealer, who is of the "I hate everything variety", the story proceeds along that he's pissed cause of grieving over his lost love. Story further proceeds to show she's not dead, leading to go talk to her, bring her back to the Junk Dealer, and they're happy and she wants to marry him. Everything proceeds smoothly.

20 minutes later, get an email, and the Junk Dealer hates being married and would rather be alone.


What was the point of all of that???

Death Marriage Stranding

Lmao! Yeah when that email showed up I literally said to my friend who was watching the whole thing unveil, "Should've left her there."
 

Lirion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,774
Can someone explain to me who Amelie/Bridget is exactly? When did she get split in two? Was it because of an accident/voidout? Were those around before the Death Stranding? And was she born as an EE, or did that happen after? Why did she become the EE anyway?

So many questions...
I just beat the game and yes all of the above. The ending left me scratching my head thinking ok? I'm lost.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
Blind posting so I don't read anything as I haven't come close to finishing:

Chapter 3 side NPC spoiler (Junk Dealer)
So, have to go to the Junk Dealer, who is of the "I hate everything variety", the story proceeds along that he's pissed cause of grieving over his lost love. Story further proceeds to show she's not dead, leading to go talk to her, bring her back to the Junk Dealer, and they're happy and she wants to marry him. Everything proceeds smoothly.

20 minutes later, get an email, and the Junk Dealer hates being married and would rather be alone.


What was the point of all of that???

Death Marriage Stranding
You also get an email from the girl saying she hated it and is moving back in with her mom. I feel like they realized how hokey it all was after recording all the dialog, and retconned it in emails, but I guess it's possible they wanted to make it hokey from the start to make some sort of point.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
I just beat the game and yes all of the above. The ending left me scratching my head thinking ok? I'm lost.
Amelie/Bridget is the main thing I need help understanding too.

I guess she got split in two at the age of 20, soon before the first void out, which makes it like Death Stranding version 0.1 or something. At that point she also became the EE vessel, started the BB project, and adopted Sam. After that, "The Death Stranding" happened.

And she's also obviously the personification of america's body and soul, given he body being president and the soul having the middle name of "America". But her actions, feelings, and motivations are really hard to understand. I think Kojima sees the spirit of America very differently from most people and that is a nut I haven't yet cracked.

Best guess is Kojima takes America's desire to export democracy and capitalism at face value as the humanitarian crusade that it's sold as, and that America is honestly confused in self reflection of it causing more and more problems in the face of that. And that confusion and hubris makes her a kind of unreliable narrator.
 
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juxjuxjux

Member
Oct 27, 2017
354
Bay Area, CA
Yes, you are missing something: some imagination. And maybe a dash of fun wouldn't hurt.

Pretty sure I'd hate to watch any sort of science fiction with you.

This is a pretty bad take. I'm with you if you mean to say that the world and setup are pretty intriguing, and sometimes even impressive. Thinking the story beats and dialogue are pretty bad isn't as hard of a logic leap to make, though. To disregard someone's thoughts based on what you think should be viewed as "fun" is just as dismissive. Especially when you say someone lacks imagination. I'm not bringing you a metaphor here.
 

SusumuStreet

Member
Jan 2, 2018
328
It's definitely a factor of different tastes, because in another one of your posts you mention Mass Effect as being a good example of a story, yet I really did not care for that game at all in large part to the tale it tried to weave. I like Death Strandings Extinction Entities and find them fascinating. It all works logically in my mind even if you aren't connecting with it or believing it yourself.
This is my big issue - how do the Extinction Entities possibly work logically in story sense for the universe's end goal (not the magic superpowers sense, obviously this is the fictional part)? Like I get that Extinction Event sounds big and cool, but why reference it and the real life previous five that do not work within the story's framework? The first EE took a million years for an ice age to do its job, the next one was caused by plant life and specifically algae *flourishing* which sucked the O2 out of the ocean and suffocated the trilobites (so Amelie's speech about life flourishing afterwards is in complete contradiction with the fact that it had to flourish to kill another type of life), then we got a severe global warming that turned the air to sulfur (definitely a 'cool' dramatic one), an unexplained one, and finally a meteor that finished off the Crustaceous. By and large these are both incredibly slow and boring and make no sense for some sentient thing to act as a catalyst imbued with power by the universe.

Further, one level higher in the chain of things that cannot make sense in the story is the entire reason the universe is kicking off (shitty and ineffective) EEs to begin with, which is that the universe is upset that solid matter exists at all in a "Big Fluke" and wasn't cancelled out by collision with antimatter. If it's matter with mass that the universe cares about, then an infinitesimally small clump of biomass on our tiny speck planet has no bearing on the obliteration of matter as a whole. All life that ever existed on Earth accounts for a fraction of a fraction of a fraction etc. of a percent of the solid matter on/in the planet.

Like why? Why do all this crap, go through all this exposition dumping, and specifically reference real world science in a way that cannot possibly work on a logical level. Why have Lindsay Wagner literally walk circles around Sam going on and on about this stuff that nobody bothered doing their homework on.

The imagery came first, and it's very cool. Five enigmatic figures, falling sea life, tar monsters, the timefall is brilliantly cool with so many terrific visual moments, the big hand monster, etc. But then in trying to actually figure out how the hell to tie all these cool visuals into something that makes even the tiniest lick of sense, the story trips on itself and shits the bed in an clusterfuck of contradictory nonsense.

——
As an aside, I never said that Mass Effect had a good story (or at least the whole series). I really dug #1 but the characters were definitely molded from stock parts, and then after that it went downhill at an accelerated pace until exploding in a fiery fuckup of poor logic and storytelling in 3.

I only referenced it because the mean-minded jagoff above doesn't get people who like to look at sci-fi where one change in the fabric of the universe can have a cascade of interesting effects that are fun to consider outside of the literal cutscenes presented to you.
 
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Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
This is my big issue - how do the Extinction Entities possibly work logically in story sense for the universe's end goal (not the magic superpowers sense, obviously this is the fictional part)? Like I get that Extinction Event sounds big and cool, but why reference it and the real life previous five that do not work within the story's framework? The first EE took a million years for an ice age to do its job, the next one was caused by plant life and specifically algae *flourishing* which sucked the O2 out of the ocean and suffocated the trilobites (so Amelie's speech about life flourishing afterwards is in complete contradiction with the fact that it had to flourish to kill another type of life), then we got a severe global warming that turned the air to sulfur (definitely a 'cool' dramatic one), an unexplained one, and finally a meteor that finished off the Crustaceous. By and large these are both incredibly slow and boring and make no sense for some sentient thing to act as a catalyst imbued with power by the universe.

Further, one level higher in the chain of things that cannot make sense in the story is the entire reason the universe is kicking off (shitty and ineffective) EEs to begin with, which is that the universe is upset that solid matter exists at all in a "Big Fluke" and wasn't cancelled out by collision with antimatter. If it's matter with mass that the universe cares about, then an infinitesimally small clump of biomass on our tiny speck planet has no bearing on the obliteration of matter as a whole. All life that ever existed on Earth accounts for a fraction of a fraction of a fraction etc. of a percent of the solid matter on/in the planet.

Like why? Why do all this crap, go through all this exposition dumping, and specifically reference real world science in a way that cannot possibly work on a logical level. Why have Lyndsey Wagner literally walk circles around Sam going on and on about this stuff that nobody bothered doing their homework on.

I think it's really great that you're picking it apart like this as I love the conversation surrounding the games lore. I personally took the Extinction Entities as being one in the same, a "life form"going through the billions of years since the big bang and culling life periodically because that's what its very being is made from. It's made of life, which is what the big bang created , and like all living things needs sustenance to go on. Once satisfied, it becomes dormant only to reveal itself again and start the process over. Because it exists on a molecular level, or spiritual as humans see it, it can take any form to direct life into extinction. In finding Sam's lifeless body, the Entity was finally touched it in a way it never had before, and due to the events of Death Standing, it choose to prolong the world's current life. At least for the time being.....
Anyway that's my headcanon! Obviously I'm not Kojima so who knows exactly what he chose the story to be. This is just the way I view it and why it makes sense to me.

As an aside, I never said that Mass Effect had a good story (or at least the whole series). I really dug #1 but the characters were definitely molded from stock parts, and then after that it went downhill at an accelerated pace until exploding in a fiery fuckup of poor logic and storytelling in 3.

I only referenced it because the mean-minded jagoff above doesn't get people who like to look at sci-fi where one change in the fabric of the universe can have a cascade of interesting effects that are fun to consider outside of the literal cutscenes presented to you.
I liked the first one too, it was it's sequels that soured me on it tbh. :)
 
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efr

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jun 19, 2019
2,893
Oh fuck off. I love sci-fi precisely because it's fun to imagine the what-ifs and think through the implications tiny changes can have. Like for video games, Mass Effect's entire universe of wild and interesting things stems from the simple premise of being able to manipulate the mass of things (or wrap them in a mass shroud that temporarily negates their mass, don't recall the specifics). That tiny bit of technology has far reaching implications that with all sorts of fun things to consider. And elaborate, beautifully intricate worlds with fun technology and social allegories can exist in perfect, internally-consistent harmony with things like Dune or the Ian Banks's Culture series.

If you're too dull to engage with the story on any level other than letting it wash over your eyes and ears without processing what it's saying, then that's on you.

My take away from your blather is you like DS, and felt the need to make a personal attack in some shitty nerd rage spas out because someone bothered to think about it and criticize its failings...rather than, you know, engage with the ideas of either the work itself or the criticism.

In summary, eat my whole ass and try engaging with the content next time, instead of knee jerk insulting the messenger.
Space travel wouldn't work the way it does in Mass Effect because of the mass issue of humans not being able to handle the speeds required. How did you enjoy Mass Effect 2 after that intro that couldn't be possible and Shepard making it out of that? How could you possibly enjoy those games while overlooking that?
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
I'm not sure Sam's mortality or lack therein is a requirement or pre-requisite for him to recognize a potential flaw in the character of someone looking to be a leader in a world hanging on by a strand. In fact, he might be the most qualified to recognize it. And outside of Lou, it's been clear throughout the game that Sam really doesn't value life anymore, including his own. It's not like he chose to be akin to an immortal. It was forced upon him.

I think Sam kind of hiked across a demon ghost infested United States to save his sister from kidnapping as well.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
"Trump is building a wall, and the U.K. is leaving the EU," said Kojima. "In this game, we use bridges to connect things. But destroying those bridges can instantly turn them into walls. So bridges and walls are almost synonymous. That's one of the things I'd like the players to think about in the game."​
I think I now understand what this game thinks about the chiral network. It's a bridge and a wall, not a strand.
 

driveninhifi

Member
Jun 7, 2018
119
I took that to be more like "if you are dependent on a bridge and it is destroyed, it's no different than having a wall there"

I'm not sure the game really knows what it thinks about the chiral network.
The game's main theme is connection and people coming together to overcome. But the reason you were sent out to connect was actually to make it easier to kill everyone so it's pretty incoherent imo.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
I took that to be more like "if you are dependent on a bridge and it is destroyed, it's no different than having a wall there"

I'm not sure the game really knows what it thinks about the chiral network.
The game's main theme is connection and people coming together to overcome. But the reason you were sent out to connect was actually to make it easier to kill everyone so it's pretty incoherent imo.
The game doesn't see the chiral network as the connection. It's the physical tool for those connections which also became the physical tool for the EE.
 

ymgve

Member
Oct 31, 2017
549
Amelie/Bridget is the main thing I need help understanding too.

I guess she got split in two at the age of 20, soon before the first void out, which makes it like Death Stranding version 0.1 or something. At that point she also became the EE vessel, started the BB project, and adopted Sam. After that, "The Death Stranding" happened.

This is partially wrong. It is clear that Sam was conceived after the Death Stranding had happened. The sequence of events is this:

1. Death Stranding happens
2. Former US president starts the BB project
3. Somehow the BB project gets caught in a voidout in Manhattan, killing the former president
4. Bridget becomes president, restarts the BB project
5. Sam is conceived and is a BB


I knew it I knew Sam was a BB from his scar.

The scar isn't from being a BB though, it's from being shot in the gut. You didn't know BB-Sam got shot until the same scene that revealed that Sam was BB-Sam.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
This is partially wrong. It is clear that Sam was conceived after the Death Stranding had happened. The sequence of events is this:

1. Death Stranding happens
2. Former US president starts the BB project
3. Somehow the BB project gets caught in a voidout in Manhattan, killing the former president
4. Bridget becomes president, restarts the BB project
5. Sam is conceived and is a BB
You're right on the technicalities, but Amelie very plainly says "the death stranding" happens after Sams birth. The character in game doesn't see first voidout as "the death stranding". The in game characters either didn't know or didn't care about the first voidout to see it as the true genesis.
 

shaneo632

Weekend Planner
Member
Oct 29, 2017
28,982
Wrexham, Wales
Just finished it. Overall it blew me away and the experience is one of my favourite EVER in gaming, but it definitely had some issues:

- The boss fights were really disappointing. Using the strand to tie up Higgs was clunky and the MGS4-fight was just a bit meh.
- The 3 Mads fights were super tense and atmospheric but it's a shame there wasn't more to them than "down him 4 times with machinegun fire"
- Bullet sponge giant BT boss at the end...lol
- Wasn't a fan of chapter 13 with the exposition dumps. I was getting frustrated because I thought I was doing something wrong but it just turns out you have to run around until you collapse of exhaustion and you get the next exposition dump x10

Oh and non-spoiler, vehicular traversal was fucking dogshit at times.
 

driveninhifi

Member
Jun 7, 2018
119
You're right on the technicalities, but Amelie very plainly says "the death stranding" happens after Sams birth. The character in game doesn't see first voidout as "the death stranding". The in game characters either didn't know or didn't care about the first voidout to see it as the true genesis.

don't heartman and others say BTs, the beach and chiralium first appeared after the death stranding?

people already know corpses turn into BTs by the time sam is born. Cliff mentions something like they are keeping Lisa in a coma because you can't be too careful after the last voidout.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
"How can you value life if you're not afraid of death?" has to be one of the very worst lines in a game with so many of them.

Sam is immortal and obviously cares a lot about Louise, what are you talking about, Sam.

That Die-Hardman cutscene is so conflicting because the animation is so good and the actor is trying so hard but literally every line is horrible.

He's still afraid of death. Not his own, but Louise's.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
So i just finished the game but had one question, what happens if i try to shoot amelie?

The bullets phase through her. When she walks far enough away a short cut scene plays and it's the end of everything. Yes, I shot at her immediately. Don't judge me.
 

hideousarmor

Member
May 9, 2019
904
Just finished the game, Im not sure at all on whether or not i liked that ending. Here are some hot takes

I loved the ending of chapter 9, the "princess beach" line, the akward beach running scene, the boss fights, the tar belt structure being a cross and reminding me of evangelion, the BT whales moment. I loved how absurd and experimental it got at times both with its gameplay, meta references and weird story twists...felt like the game was having fun with itself, trying to be its own thing, not another movie game.

it got me excited for the ending, I was expecting something in the same vein of originality. I was wrong in getting my hopes up.
The actual ending felt like a neverending movie, not only did it go on for so long that it ruined the subsequent climaxes, it also returned to a very serious tone that I get from certain games that seem more concerned with resembling a movie than being its own medium. And no, I dont have a problem with extended cutscenes.

I guess i liked the "start" or intro to that ending. Getting to the beach, feeling completely lost and having to figure out what to do (i mean you didnt have to do shit but at least it got me intrigued through interaction). I loved that ending fakeout when sam pulls the trigger.
On the gameplay side of things, the actual BT boss fight was just plain boring. Did it even attack the player? I was just standing on a building waiting for it to show up and then shooting whenever I had the chance. The 4 bt lions where a good challenge and I got close to taking them down but eventually one of them caused a voidout and the whole encounter got trivialized.

On top of that, you add that gameplay was practically non existent from chapter 12 to 14. I originally got excited with the prospect of having to walk all the way back, I imagined it'd be something more emotional akin to that bit in mgs4 where snake had to go through the microwave and ends up making it on his knees. Turns out you could just pick up a truck and make it the whole way back. The whole thing felt like an excuse to make the game 40 minutes longer.
 
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Arklite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,638
Half of the finale was a fucking bore. Amelie is a terrible character and Kojima would not end her shit. The last bits with BB/Cliff/Diehardman were great but I was half checked out by then. Overall I'm shocked at how mundane the execution of much of the plot ended up being. Biggest disappointment was what the mysterious figures in the sky ended up being. Absolute flat reveal.
 

Demon-69

Member
Oct 15, 2018
1,670
Somewhere
This is partially wrong. It is clear that Sam was conceived after the Death Stranding had happened. The sequence of events is this:

1. Death Stranding happens
2. Former US president starts the BB project
3. Somehow the BB project gets caught in a voidout in Manhattan, killing the former president
4. Bridget becomes president, restarts the BB project
5. Sam is conceived and is a BB




The scar isn't from being a BB though, it's from being shot in the gut. You didn't know BB-Sam got shot until the same scene that revealed that Sam was BB-Sam.
I meant from the early trailers of the game same belly button scar always made me think he was a BB or manufactured, And can anyone explain to me Sams old photograph.
 
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