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Oct 27, 2017
2,240
Maolfunction (2 votes)
turmoil7 - #205 #293

malus - #295 #490
Dr. Monkey - #419 #450
Ketkat - #449
Fantomas - #458

Fran - #461 #494

Three of these are town. Do we believe scum sat out on that town wagon and let town destroy themselves? Do we?

malus Can you create a graph for the D1 votes? That would be immensely helpful. I feel like the push came at a certain point, turm had 3, meatwad 2 and idk.

This brings me to the votes on VA:

Vincent Alexander (0 votes)
Dr. Monkey - #363 #419
turmoil7 - #371 #441
Maolfunction - #413 #460


Monkey's prior push followed by two town, but nothing else, abandoned abruptly.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
Gorlak, I opened the day talking about votes and nobody has given a shit.
Because D2 is less helpful. You set that tone. Your conclusion was 1 out of Kitsunelaine, Kalor, Kopite, Meatwad may be scum. (you only ruled out Fat). What do you expect in return? Scum may or may not have been on or off Mao.

Work with me here. You think I'm town. We need to get this sorted out today.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
Don't want to get too drawn into flavour but assuming the 3 Mafia roles are Mads, Troy Baker and a spooky boi maybe Kits can detect the 3rd scum
You're assuming we have 3 scum then? I've been thinking about if the mark power is a neutral or scum one after Monkey's big post at day start, but Gorlak getting roleblocked this night phase after Kitsu claimed a detector role indicates that there's really a neutral out there.

Course, supposing since no scum flips so far, but I think if scum has a roleblocker they wouldn't leave the only claimed investigative role.
Catch up first, Mao had a 'dying soldier' role at the start of the game and then a 'hated' role at the start of D2. The role swapper/power is most likely scum, and I think 'Role Swapper' Scum 1 tried to help 'hated' Scum too swap their power with someone else. This couldnt have worked on everyone but it did on Mao since 'dying soldier' isnt tied to alignment. If that's right we should see a scummie die tomorrow and will need to be wary of bussing today
Kalor claiming a change in his role changes this, but I have some other problems with this.
Would scum self switch a role with another townie like this, with no info on Maol on D1? That's besides the fact I've never seen another role like this.
 

Kopite

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,018
You're assuming we have 3 scum then? I've been thinking about if the mark power is a neutral or scum one after Monkey's big post at day start, but Gorlak getting roleblocked this night phase after Kitsu claimed a detector role indicates that there's really a neutral out there.

Course, supposing since no scum flips so far, but I think if scum has a roleblocker they wouldn't leave the only claimed investigative role.

Kalor claiming a change in his role changes this, but I have some other problems with this.
Would scum self switch a role with another townie like this, with no info on Maol on D1? That's besides the fact I've never seen another role like this.
I'm not really following your logic for the first part, why does Gorlak getting RBed indicate a neutral?

Hated is a bad role to have and most town roles are/should be good so I could see a blind swap being possible. Kalor does have a point though that multiple shots of this might be OP, but it's still possible.

Fat4all mentioned his role had some role swap thingy, so maybe he could shed a bit more light on this
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
I'm not really following your logic for the first part, why does Gorlak getting RBed indicate a neutral?

Hated is a bad role to have and most town roles are/should be good so I could see a blind swap being possible. Kalor does have a point though that multiple shots of this might be OP, but it's still possible.

Fat4all mentioned his role had some role swap thingy, so maybe he could shed a bit more light on this
If scum have a roleblocker and Kitsu role is a counter for one of their members, I think they would use it on her instead of Gorlak. I don't think the mark is a delayed or permanent roleblock, so I think those are separate powers.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,574
here
When Maol mentioned his entire role had changed I believed it based on the specifics of my role.

I didn't think that made Maol more or less Town, tho, as I assume the Hated role change could probably effect both Scum and Town.

Getting the flip confirms to me that there may be multiple 'role change' roles/abilities, whether they effect you or someone you target.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
Scum knew Maol's aligment and they knew he wasn't lying so they would want to push for his lynch but not to hard so they are in trouble when he flips or they would say that they townread him, so let's see the votes yesterday:

Fando voted for Maol but this was his read on Maol. To me it seems fake. I think he knew how the flip would end.
I didn't vote for Maol though, and my read on him was pretty clear considering all the mess that came with his 2 claims. I never "sorta pushed" for his lynch once he did claim and Monkey retracted her red check.

It looks bad to me now that your main point against him was mechanics based ("that role is a bad lie") and now you're moving goal posts to actually town read people who were wrong and thought he was scum - I disagree on your take on Fat4All and VA reads.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Because D2 is less helpful. You set that tone. Your conclusion was 1 out of Kitsunelaine, Kalor, Kopite, Meatwad may be scum. (you only ruled out Fat). What do you expect in return? Scum may or may not have been on or off Mao.

Work with me here. You think I'm town. We need to get this sorted out today.
I'm trying, Gorlak. I've been trying but every time I come into the thread I get hit with questions about my role again, and it takes time to answer and I don't have the kind of time to play that I used to. Then everything I I do is handwaved or ignored. kitsunelaine for instance has ignored everything I've put out there about her proposed neutral theory and no one else has commented either. Why would they? It's easier to just write me off or wrap me up talking about my role. Meanwhile a significant chunk of the game has barely weighed in today.

I understand the urge to want to vote me out today. I fucked up yesterday. I get it. But - and I know this but you don't - killing me just ends that one thread and leaves you, at d4, back at what is essentially square one. It's as easy to vote for me today as it was for Maol yesterday so your vote data isn't worth much and after I'm dead you start tomorrow with no real clues or anything else that gets you closer to finding the mafia team.

If the handprint person IS some kind of arsonist, too, you're a step closer to a mass removal of players.

I believe this is why Maol tried to caution the thread about automatically going for me today. I believe Gorlak is doing it with the best of intentions; he's twisted up about what comes down, essentially, to me not playing this role the way he would have. I get that. It's fine. I think there's also a seed of doubt there because of d2. I get that, too, and I earned it. Fat4All's questions are a little different and I also think he's probably more likely to be town, but I do not feel as certain as I am about Gorlak. The others who are so willing to just immediately get rid of me I would watch and question. What else/where else have they engaged? Are they following the easiest paths? If you do vote me out today, these are at least some trails to follow tomorrow.

But I have truly tried to be as transparent and open as possible. My interest in this game is in finding mafia. That's it. I have no other agenda. I thought, after d1, that I needed a fix on Maol. I asked a question and I presented my results.

Tell me, what would you have done? You ask, in a bastard game, with a role PM that seems like a medium but isn't called a medium, if a player is scum - knowing that the one dead player at the moment, if going off reads, is one more likely to call that player town. You get not-town. What do you do?

Let me slow that down. When I asked the question about Maol, turmoil was the only dead player. turmoil and Maol were somewhat aligned d1. turmoil was town so I asked if Maol was town. I got very formal investigative results: not aligned with the town.

Why would I not think that's more likely to be Natiko than turmoil unless spec had spoilers and Maol was scum? Either way, it seemed to point to a scum Maol, but since it's a bastard game, I presented it as the check it seemed to be but with caveats. I answered every question about my role. I was not trying to be cagey. Some people didn't like that I opened with the information, but that's always how I've played having information that I think will help solve.

I didn't set out to get Maol killed. I set out to get information. Yes, I botched the presentation. I haven't been playing as much lately and I don't always think as hard about the implications of things unless I'm scum and I know I have to. But the intent was to offer the information I had to town, and that's what I did. I tried to answer questions. There's one thing I've held back and I swear I would not if I didn't think it would impact things. So I'll say again: if the consensus is to basically ignore my results (I'll keep asking if I live but really just out of curiosity) then I'm happy to reveal that last part. If I'm gonna die I'll reveal that last part and let y'all weigh it. Until then, I won't, because it potentially impacts play. I've been clear about that the whole time.

(Side note: I think now that my role exists to foster paranoia. I don't really see another use for it in this game.)

I know we're in a not great spot in terms of leads. But I am really not the answer here. Voting me out because you don't like how I played this doesn't get us closer to finding scum. If you truly think I'm mafia here, then okay, sure, go ahead. But I honestly think if you look through what I'd have to do to be scum here and what purpose it would serve, you'll come to the conclusion that it's not helping solve.

I don't really know what else to say about this. I feel like I've been locked into spending time just answering questions because if I don't I get yelled at and accused of ignoring people. I would like to turn my attention to literally anything else, especially if I only have a day left in the game to work on solving. Y'all can vote me or not, however you like, but there's no gotcha here, there's no story, there's just what's happened. But I don't see the point of continuing to hammer on it with the same questions. It's not getting us anywhere.

Now I have a bunch of quotes in my bank and I'm going to address those.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
For when kits gets back:

I know this debate can rage on for hours but prod me again when I'm awake. Short answer:

-when i revealed my role

-you are in the position of providing a counter argument to the simplest solution to the existance of my role because that's how facts work. I don't make things muddier than they need to be and you haven't got a compelling case here. Getting into the weeds when there's no need is time wasting, not game solving. Convince me there's a need and I'll do it. That's not avoiding; that's common sense.

Please don't try and make me stay up longer by continuing this right this second, we can do that later i guess. I know it's hard to stop in the heat of things (just look at my entire mafia history) but I really gotta sleep. Thanks for understanding! >.o

It's really a very simple thing I've been trying to get you to answer:
Do you think there is a neutral who functions like an arsonist when we already had a role like Maol's that removed someone from the game outside of normal voting/NKs?

If not, then why are you so convinced it is a neutral?

Re: "general use of pocketing": If you're not referring to me but to the thread at large, who do you think is pocketing you? Does that align with your scum reads?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Btw assuming a scummie swapped roles with Mao, that means that scum I'd is going to die tomorrow right? I'd be wary of bussing this phase
What? You think it was a swapped role? It doesn't seem that way from what Kalor's claiming. What makes you suspect a swap and not just a change or overwrite?

Speaking of Kalor, am I the only one who finds this questionable?
So, I'm conflicted on this because my role changed overnight.

I was vanilla before and the power I got doesn't make sense if they swapped it from scum to town. Unless they thought it was worthless or chose two town to swap between but I guess I don't see scum or anyone being able to swap roles twice in a row. That seems too powerful.
I have no idea what is triggering this but I don't think it's a role swapper.

So apparently you also got hit by the thing that got Maol and you just sort of casually mention it in the middle of the phase? So it's a multi-shot ability. Did it change your role completely like Maol's?

Why do you and Kopite think this was a swap situation and not a change?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
EzekelRAGE it looks like you have tangled a few threads together re: roles, the switcher discussion that temporarily cropped up d2, and my role.

I did not lie about my role. My results, however, have been untrue on 2/2 attempts.

We discussed a potential switcher. There is also a power that seems to change roles. Maol's was totally overwritten. Kalor and Kopite seem to think this is a role swapper for some reason. I don't know where they're getting that, though.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Catch up first, Mao had a 'dying soldier' role at the start of the game and then a 'hated' role at the start of D2. The role swapper/power is most likely scum, and I think 'Role Swapper' Scum 1 tried to help 'hated' Scum too swap their power with someone else. This couldnt have worked on everyone but it did on Mao since 'dying soldier' isnt tied to alignment. If that's right we should see a scummie die tomorrow and will need to be wary of bussing today
If someone gave away a hated role and ended up with a role that kills them, why wouldn't Kalor get that today if this is a swap and not an overwrite? If Kalor is town and it's a scum power as you're pointing out.

It feels like you're doing very surface analysis here and not thinking things through to conclusions. Kalor, are you dying d4 now?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Gorlak and Fandorin are my firmest town reads today. Fandorin has not been very active but his moves from the last two days are very town.

Fran I've got back and forth on and I'm really uncertain. I think what I come down to is that unless we want to push hard on d1 EoD, he's probably not the best vote today. I'd really like to see more from him this phase, though. Weekend/vacation may be impacting things but a 10-post Fran is difficult to work with. Similarly I would not be inclined to vote for Fat4All today but I also feel like he hasn't been much presence, though I see he just appeared so maybe that will change.

Zeke, I have no idea. I did not feel great about VA and Zeke's far behind. We'll see when he's caught up. The people who have commented on Zeke as a potential vote target today though makes me want to look elsewhere. Kopite I have little read on but suddenly talking about a role "swapper" makes me more than a little curious.

My would-vote pool at this point is:
malus
Meatwad
kitsunelaine
Kalor
(and possibly Kopite)

Not in any order, though I suppose kits and malus I'd be less likely to vote for than potentially Kopite, Kalor, or Meatwad. kitsunelaine is mostly because I feel like she's been avoiding real discussion in order to push an idea that has no real foundation under it. It feels like hiding behind emotional reactions and mechanics discussion (speculative mechanics at that) and little else. malus I'm uncertain of - he's had some really helpful posts but I feel like there's some potential sheeping in there and I've seen malus put up those helpful posts as scum before. He's good at hiding. Wouldn't be my first choice but someone to keep an eye on.

Meatwad helps resolve lingering issues from previous days and it's definitely been town on him pretty consistently. But I do worry that's an easy thread to follow.

Kalor I've not felt great about all game and now just sort of casually dropping "oh also my role was impacted" does not feel like good faith town trying to figure out what's going on.

This is where I'm at right now. I gotta do some stuff and then I wanna look at some connections.
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,058
EzekelRAGE it looks like you have tangled a few threads together re: roles, the switcher discussion that temporarily cropped up d2, and my role.

I did not lie about my role. My results, however, have been untrue on 2/2 attempts.

We discussed a potential switcher. There is also a power that seems to change roles. Maol's was totally overwritten. Kalor and Kopite seem to think this is a role swapper for some reason. I don't know where they're getting that, though.
The point I was getting at is, from your POV, there should've never been a thought of a potential switcher, since you talk directly to the mod, there is no middleman.

I'm also curious as to why kop feels the way they do about the role shenanigans.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that it actually swaps roles, just that it overrides your current one.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
The point I was getting at is, from your POV, there should've never been a thought of a potential switcher, since you talk directly to the mod, there is no middleman.
Because I do need to reference a particular player, though I don't know if it's considered a "target."

I agree there is no evidence there is a swap in play re: the role change power.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
Alright, I can finally sit down and play the game this phase. Apologies for not being present, couldn't participate at all so far.

Two little comments on pressing topics before I go into some vote analysis.

So, I'm conflicted on this because my role changed overnight.

I was vanilla before and the power I got doesn't make sense if they swapped it from scum to town. Unless they thought it was worthless or chose two town to swap between but I guess I don't see scum or anyone being able to swap roles twice in a row. That seems too powerful.
I have no idea what is triggering this but I don't think it's a role swapper.
I'll digress from the "role swapper" talk since to me it doesn't make sense for scum to use something like that blindly on D1, or scum having more than 1-shot on a power like this.

But regarding this, what do you think is happening them? You said you have no idea, but since you're open for claiming that you were vanilla before this phase, can you say whether your role had any indication that a role change would happen? We know Maol's didn't, but we have Fat4All saying that his role CAN change as well and he knows it.

I'm trying, Gorlak. I've been trying but every time I come into the thread I get hit with questions about my role again, and it takes time to answer and I don't have the kind of time to play that I used to. Then everything I I do is handwaved or ignored. kitsunelaine for instance has ignored everything I've put out there about her proposed neutral theory and no one else has commented either. Why would they? It's easier to just write me off or wrap me up talking about my role. Meanwhile a significant chunk of the game has barely weighed in today.

I understand the urge to want to vote me out today. I fucked up yesterday. I get it. But - and I know this but you don't - killing me just ends that one thread and leaves you, at d4, back at what is essentially square one. It's as easy to vote for me today as it was for Maol yesterday so your vote data isn't worth much and after I'm dead you start tomorrow with no real clues or anything else that gets you closer to finding the mafia team.

If the handprint person IS some kind of arsonist, too, you're a step closer to a mass removal of players.

I believe this is why Maol tried to caution the thread about automatically going for me today. I believe Gorlak is doing it with the best of intentions; he's twisted up about what comes down, essentially, to me not playing this role the way he would have. I get that. It's fine. I think there's also a seed of doubt there because of d2. I get that, too, and I earned it. Fat4All's questions are a little different and I also think he's probably more likely to be town, but I do not feel as certain as I am about Gorlak. The others who are so willing to just immediately get rid of me I would watch and question. What else/where else have they engaged? Are they following the easiest paths? If you do vote me out today, these are at least some trails to follow tomorrow.

But I have truly tried to be as transparent and open as possible. My interest in this game is in finding mafia. That's it. I have no other agenda. I thought, after d1, that I needed a fix on Maol. I asked a question and I presented my results.

Tell me, what would you have done? You ask, in a bastard game, with a role PM that seems like a medium but isn't called a medium, if a player is scum - knowing that the one dead player at the moment, if going off reads, is one more likely to call that player town. You get not-town. What do you do?

Let me slow that down. When I asked the question about Maol, turmoil was the only dead player. turmoil and Maol were somewhat aligned d1. turmoil was town so I asked if Maol was town. I got very formal investigative results: not aligned with the town.

Why would I not think that's more likely to be Natiko than turmoil unless spec had spoilers and Maol was scum? Either way, it seemed to point to a scum Maol, but since it's a bastard game, I presented it as the check it seemed to be but with caveats. I answered every question about my role. I was not trying to be cagey. Some people didn't like that I opened with the information, but that's always how I've played having information that I think will help solve.

I didn't set out to get Maol killed. I set out to get information. Yes, I botched the presentation. I haven't been playing as much lately and I don't always think as hard about the implications of things unless I'm scum and I know I have to. But the intent was to offer the information I had to town, and that's what I did. I tried to answer questions. There's one thing I've held back and I swear I would not if I didn't think it would impact things. So I'll say again: if the consensus is to basically ignore my results (I'll keep asking if I live but really just out of curiosity) then I'm happy to reveal that last part. If I'm gonna die I'll reveal that last part and let y'all weigh it. Until then, I won't, because it potentially impacts play. I've been clear about that the whole time.

(Side note: I think now that my role exists to foster paranoia. I don't really see another use for it in this game.)

I know we're in a not great spot in terms of leads. But I am really not the answer here. Voting me out because you don't like how I played this doesn't get us closer to finding scum. If you truly think I'm mafia here, then okay, sure, go ahead. But I honestly think if you look through what I'd have to do to be scum here and what purpose it would serve, you'll come to the conclusion that it's not helping solve.

I don't really know what else to say about this. I feel like I've been locked into spending time just answering questions because if I don't I get yelled at and accused of ignoring people. I would like to turn my attention to literally anything else, especially if I only have a day left in the game to work on solving. Y'all can vote me or not, however you like, but there's no gotcha here, there's no story, there's just what's happened. But I don't see the point of continuing to hammer on it with the same questions. It's not getting us anywhere.

Now I have a bunch of quotes in my bank and I'm going to address those.
This post really portrays your frustration, which wouldn't make sense if you were scum, and I do think you're trying to solve the game so far. Your role has created quite the mess so far though, and since it looks like you haven't even figured it out yet, I think sharing the rest of the claim could help us solve some loose ends. Course, I have literally no idea how full claiming "can affect the flow of the game" like you mentioned, but at this point I doubt it would hurt the discussion on this point.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
Weekend/vacation may be impacting things but a 10-post Fran is difficult to work with.

Sorry. It was mother's day here and I went to visit my parents so I wasn't around to play the game.

Could you explain this?:

It's why I chose him from my limited pool of targets. Had I been free to choose anyone, he wouldn't have been my choice.

Because I thought that I understood your role when you asked for some true statements to test it but I don't understand how this is related to what I thought.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is what I'm thinking right now. Scum knew that Maol was town so they knew that Monkey was wrong when she started the day red checking him. If Monkey isn't scum and all that was a gambit then it would be interested to look for reactions to that red check as scum would have doubts if that was not a trap. So I think they would try to exploit that check but being cautious.

Kalor was one of the first to talk about the check:

Not sure what to make of that red check
. I don't see scum Monkey lying about it but the hatred stuff throws it up in the air where I'm willing to believe a fake red check due to role weirdness. Even if it'd be awfully convenient that both happened on the same night.

And it's exactly as I thought that scum would react. He is unsure about the red check. Don't think that Monkey is lying (because Maol is a easy lunch and they could go after Monkey D3 after the flip) but is still unsure.

I feel kinda weird about Dr. Monkey opening today with their red-check moment one.

Sure, they opened it with the caveats of "lets not be too hasty with this info", but it's still something that colors the conversation of the day from the get-go.

I'm not sure if this is consistant with Dr's play, but I'd probably want to sit on that info for a bit before dropping it into the conversation, see if people say stuff that makes them slip up or gives something away.

Especially if Dr's ability can be used again (tho I do recognise they said it was limited to some degree)

Doggo also doubts Monkey because she claimed early. Maybe scum worried that it could be a gambit from a townie.

My thoughts on Monkey right now, is that opening the second day immediately with a red check and no full role claim is an incredibly bold move. It's a gambit that could easily backfire and if I were scum, not something I would attempt. So I'm inclined to give Monkey the benefit of the doubt for the time being that she's being truthful. That leaves Mao who wasn't looking to good at the end of the day yesterday jumping on the Fran wagon.

Meatwad believes Monkey because he doesn't think that scum would take the risk of a fake claim.

I'll go over Monkey x Maol posts carefully when I get in front of a computer, but I think we should follow Monkey's red check regardless of the caveats or the pre-typed post.

Fando thinks that we should follow the red check.

so, this is a weird spot to be in

if Dr. Monkey and Maol are both town then scum got really lucky OR scum also has some misdirection abilities AND they got really lucky

considering all the possible misdirections, possible false night reads, or straight up bastard things able to happen i really wish Day 2 coulda started without claims so early

if Dr. Monkey or Maol is scum then this becomes less complicated and less likely that scum just shot the moon

i highly highly doubt both are scum, that'd be bonkers bananapants

Fat4all brings the possibility that both of them are town and scum got lucky or they used some misdirection.

The thread is surprisingly uneasy considering we have a red check out on a "not really town read" player with Maol. I think things would've been better laid out if Monkey hadn't dropped the bomb with a pre-typed post right at day start, and I have several grievances over Monkey's play ( the claim's caveats, #510 with out loud pondering on Ketkat's more "traditional" role which read a bit too much to me or #517 where she "stands by her red check" while unvoting just because Maol rebutted her check with the most simple "you're lying" ever), but the Gorlak x Monkey back-and-forth feels more and more like a town x town discussion, especially with Maol settling in the back whole adding some fire to it.

I think Maol is the only one considering that Monkey wouldn't be lynched if he flipped town due to meta and her "safety nets", but I strongly disagree. I think even another red check from another player wouldn't be enough to delay her lynch if that happened.

Fando isn't too sure about Monkey's play. He brings up that, if Maol flips town we should lynch Monkey (this is the kind of thing that scum would push for).


Another thing that could help find scum is looking for reactions for Maol's claim. Maol's role is really unconventional with our usual Meta so it was suspicious. And then he claimed that his role had changed during the night phase which also is really weird. But scum knew that he wasn't lying so looking for how players reacted to that claim could help us:

with or without the Hatred modifier being the truth or a lie, i don't really see any other outcome of today other than a Maol lynch

the claim of Dr.'s role could've been misdirected or whathaveyou, but there's just as likely the chance it wasn't touched at all

Fat4all says that no matter if Maol was lying or not we should lunch him (Again, something that scum would push for).

Morning, just got caught up.

I think Mao's suggestion that Monkey faked a red checked and put a hated modifier on him is very unlikely, a red check is more than enough to get someone lunched, Scum would have saved that role for later for sure.

As to what actually happened last night, yeah there could've been switches/other shenanigans but we'll have to make the high percentage play and in this case that's lunching Mao. Before that though I'd like more clarity on Monkey's role, as she's indicated she want's to discuss more of it as well?

Kopite doesn't think that Monkey faked a check. He thinks that the switch could have happened but we need to lunch Maol anyway.

So I went over Monkey again last night and came away with a pretty solid town read. Her kind of non committal red check has me a bit worried but at this point I'd rather lunch Mao I think.

Malus thinks that Monkey is town. He is worried about Monkey's claim but he wants to lynch Maol anyway.

Maol's claim could be real but it's also convenient since it encourages us to keep them alive until the end of day 4. Even if they don't win and exit the game, the damage of a potential scum or neutral role would already be done. They're going to be a constant point of discussion until the end of day 4 now.

Kalor thinks that the claim could be real but is suspicious of him.

I was thinking about leaving Maol alone for today but we have to get rid of them today after that. This is a weird thing to judge when we have no idea of the balance but I don't see changes being made to a role like that at this point. Especially one thats already revealed. Maybe I'm wrong and I wouldn't be surprised if I was but the possibility exists that this is an elaborate lie to lower the potential heat and live longer.

Vote: Maolfunction

Kalor says that he thought of leaving Maol alone but he doesn't believe the change and wants to lunch him. Then says that maybe he is wrong and the switch is true but he doesn't want to risk it. This is a really no commital vote because he keeps bringing that maybe he is wrong. Big scum lean with this vote.

giphy.gif


This phase has been a rollercoaster so far lol

My take on your... first claim was that it was really unconventional and that you claiming like you did wasn't optimal, since getting NK'ed is actually ideal for a doomed vanilla townie like you were. I liked the timing of your claim though, since I believe discussion would've drifted away from you a bit after Monkey cleared her red check, but you did a 180º on your read on her + claimed the weirdest role so far.

On this change though, can you clear up on what exactly happened this night? Were you actually a "doomed vanilla" before and somehow you got "upgraded" to an hated vanilla? Is that it?

Fando thought that the claim was unconventional but liked that the claim raised discussion. But he never says if he believes the claim or not. He just ask a couple of questions but avoids giving opinions.

Mao, I don't think I buy Mao's claim of being a doomed townie and then suddenly having his role change to be hated townie. I don't know why he claimed that in the first place but it seems like he realized his claim wouldn't work if he didn't die so he had to change it. He's played mostly defensively and hasn't shown much interest in scum hunting. He hasn't done anything to make me think the red check Monkey received is a mistake. Scum lean

Doesn't believes Maol and says he was a scum lean.

Sorry for ghosting, I had a rough day and was in a bad place for a bit.

A role that can completely override another role seems kind of OP. That would basically be a super roleblock.
Maols claim sound a lot like his fake claim in HvV2 where he went with his experience from another place without considering the local meta.
The only way I could imagine his claim making sense is if his role already contains a switch from being doomed to being hated, but at day start he explicitly said that he was targeted by another player.

This is the read that I find most townie because it's the same read that I made. I also remembered HvV2 as soon as he made that claim.

Just got caught up. Like I said yesterday there I don't think we can afford to not lynch Mao today. Monkey's roleclaim is so obtuse though that if Mao flips town I don't even know what to read from that.

Kopite still wants to lunch Maol. Unsure about what to do with Monkey if Maol flips town.

Mao is most likely scum, it's almost always the best play to make when you're redchecked. His weird roleclaims later, and if he's actually hated, which means if he dies earlier its in towns favour (in-fact if a scummie has the hated modifier it's best if he gets bussed earlier, which is possibly whats happening here as well).

Kopite thought that Maol was likely scum. Keeps bringing the red check even after Monkey clarified that it wasn't a red check.

At this time my scum read of Maol isn't really based on Monkeys red check and more on his role claim. As far as I can tell with the current information Monkey just receives the opinion of the dead players as answer to her question and apparently Turmoil thinks Maol is scum. But his opinion is as valid as any read in this thread so I wouldn't take it as gospel.
What really makes me suspicious about Maol is his claim and how he claimed. It reads like he claimed a role, then realized it wouldn't fly and tried to rectify it into something believable.
At first he said he was targeted by a player that made him hated. Then he said he was a doomed soldier which seems kind of an unfun role to have. When people expressed doubt about the role he corrected that he actually lost his original role and is now only hated, which I find even more questionable.
Maolfunction are you sure it was a player that made you hated or is it just a quirk of your role?

Again Malus posts coincides with my thoughts about the game.

Now that I've had more time to think about Maol the less sure I feel about that vote. Partly because it's an easy excuse for scum to vote for someone and not stick out too much (says one of the only 2 people actively voting for them right now). But then there's the conflicting side where some of Maols actions prior to revealing don't really line up with what their role, and the claim itself and the handling of it afterwards has just been messy. Although this has sort of been a game of messy role claims so far.

Kalor is now rethinking about Maol. He is unsure because it is an easy lunch. Kalor keeps being wishy washy about his read on Maol.

Maolfunction: A hard read due to the mess this phase turned out to be, but a town lean nonetheless. Is still sharp when considering other players contributions including those related to his claim - like his town read on Fat4All due to his take on Monkey's red check (which we apparently are the only ones that liked). Maol is an experienced player and his meta play is still his own, but I don't think he'd be able to fake his overall "level headness" throughout this phase, like when he first claimed his role after attention was drifting from Monkey's read check.

Fando says that Maol was a hard read but it is a town lean.


After all that I think that Kalor is the one that looks the worst as he spend all day changing his reads and tried to not give an opinion. He said that Maol was scum and voted for him but, close to EoD, he changed his mind but never changed his vote.

Second would be the doggo. His first reaction for the red check is doubt Monkey. If he is scum he knows that Maol is town so he could try to push for Monkey D3 for another easy lunch. He is one of the first to talk about Modifiers or switchers like he knew that Monkey's results were wrong. And in the end he ends up voting Maol saying that we have to resolve him. Now he is pushing for Monkey's lunch.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
Color coded vote counts to help look back.

2 immediate thoughts I had:(i) 3 flipped townies (+ plus me and Gorlak) have voted for Meatwad at some point; and (ii) the Fran wagon on D1 is (very probably) pure with turmoil, Maol and Gorlak voting in quick sucession.

Looking back on vote history on point (ii): we had T5/Meat3/Maol2, Fantomas votes Maolfunction and makes it T5/Meat3/Maol3. Maol soon after votes for Meat and goes T5/Meat4/Maol3. Fran then switches his vote from Meatwad to Maol and makes it T5/Meat3/Maol4. Gorlak creates a 3 way tie voting off turmoil onto Meat with T4/Maol4/Meat4.

We get some dead air this point and after a bit turmoil, Maol and then Gorlak go for Fran, leaving things T4/Maol4/Fran3/Meat1.

I think I understand the link between Meat + Fran that Maol was talking about. We now know that we had 2 townies leading the lynch on D1, with Meat as the third option. Fran switching out to Maol removed some pressure from Meat and put solidified again Turmoil or Maol as the lynch - if Gorlak hadn't purposely voted to create a 3-way tie at least. I can see Fran's early pressure vote on Meat (that stayed until EoD) as a easy bus attempt on an inactive scummie.

==== DAY 1 VOTES ====
Day Start

turmoil7 (5 votes)
Gorlak - #108 #463
Fantomas - #187 #317
Meatwad - #213
Dr. Monkey - #274 #363
Kalor - #280
Vincent Alexander - #442
Dr. Monkey - #450
malus - #490

Fran (3 votes)
Kitsunelaine - #80 #109
turmoil7 - #472
Gorlak - #478
Maolfunction - #479

Maolfunction (3 votes)
turmoil7 - #205 #293
malus - #295 #490
Dr. Monkey - #419 #450
Ketkat - #449
Fantomas - #458
Fran - #461

Meatwad (1 votes)
Fantomas - #123 #168
Fran - #321 #461
turmoil7 - #323 #371
Fandorin - #364
Vincent Alexander - #367 #390
turmoil7 - #441 #472
Maolfunction - #460 #479
Gorlak - #463 #478

Fat4all (1 votes)
turmoil7 - #130 #205
Ketkat - #169 #373
Kopite - #272

Gorlak (1 votes)
Kitsunelaine - #109
Fantomas - #168 #187

Kopite (0 votes)
turmoil7 - #50 #82

Dr. Monkey (0 votes)
Fantomas - #52 #123
turmoil7 - #293 #322

Kalor (0 votes)
Fantomas - #317 #458
turmoil7 - #322 #323

Vincent Alexander (0 votes)
Dr. Monkey - #363 #419
turmoil7 - #371 #441
Maolfunction - #413 #460

Ketkat (0 votes)
Maolfunction - #209 #413

Not voting: Fat4all
==== DAY 2 VOTES ====
Day Start - Day End

Maolfunction (5 votes)
Dr. Monkey - #508 #517
Kitsunelaine - #797
Kalor - #864
Vincent Alexander - #930 #992
Fat4all - #1,027
Kopite - #1,102
Meatwad - #1,165

Meatwad (3 votes)
Fantomas - #1,035
Fandorin - #1,086
Gorlak - #1,173

Fran (1 votes)
Maolfunction - #832

Gorlak (0 votes)
Kitsunelaine - #655 #797

Dr. Monkey (0 votes)
Gorlak - #509 #513

Kalor (0 votes)
Gorlak - #833 #1,173

Not voting: Fran, malus, Dr. Monkey, EzekelRAGE
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Color coded vote counts to help look back.

2 immediate thoughts I had:(i) 3 flipped townies (+ plus me and Gorlak) have voted for Meatwad at some point; and (ii) the Fran wagon on D1 is (very probably) pure with turmoil, Maol and Gorlak voting in quick sucession.

Looking back on vote history on point (ii): we had T5/Meat3/Maol2, Fantomas votes Maolfunction and makes it T5/Meat3/Maol3. Maol soon after votes for Meat and goes T5/Meat4/Maol3. Fran then switches his vote from Meatwad to Maol and makes it T5/Meat3/Maol4. Gorlak creates a 3 way tie voting off turmoil onto Meat with T4/Maol4/Meat4.

We get some dead air this point and after a bit turmoil, Maol and then Gorlak go for Fran, leaving things T4/Maol4/Fran3/Meat1.

I think I understand the link between Meat + Fran that Maol was talking about. We now know that we had 2 townies leading the lynch on D1, with Meat as the third option. Fran switching out to Maol removed some pressure from Meat and put solidified again Turmoil or Maol as the lynch - if Gorlak hadn't purposely voted to create a 3-way tie at least. I can see Fran's early pressure vote on Meat (that stayed until EoD) as a easy bus attempt on an inactive scummie.
Yeah, I was just thinking about some of this. Meatwad clears up the early trains but I think only really gives us clues at this point IF he is in fact scum with Fran (or obviously is just scum himself). Fran's vote could be a bus vote, or not.

What may also be interesting though in terms of Meatwad is who else hasn't said much about him either way. Since he's been the only other real vote contender who's still alive, I've been going back through read posts by various members and collecting some quotes there but it's taking a while.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
I hadn't been up long so I just mentioned the reason that stuck out when I was catching up.

Part of it is trying to reconcile my suspicion of both of you with the fact Vincent voted for Meatwad so early on day 1. Not sure how that fits in quite yet. I need to reread Meatwad at some point so maybe I'd feel differently after that.
Kalor, did you get a chance to do this?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
I don't like this defence at all. Assuming his scum, Meatwad didn't need a powerful role for you to protect him on D1. You'd do it because he was off the alignment. And you're making it sound like you Green Checked him or something, you literally said something to the effect of "We can lynch him later."

And your last paragraph on not waiting for you, what are you even talking about? I'm now supposed to wait for everyone to give a read on someone specific before I can deliver my own? What if you don't mention Meatwad, guess I'll take my theory to the grave then. You pushed for more activity several times this game so delivering a take like that. And yes I do believe its perfectly possible for you to fake a red check this elaborately, I think you're a competent enough player to do that
Oh, I think I missed this one when I was going through earlier. So you really think I would handwave my scummate in an obvious way that would clearly tie us together in the event one of us died but also I could construct an enormously elaborate role just to get Maol voted out for reasons? Because those things don't really go together. One is not great play, especially d1, but I'm "competent" enough to stone cold gambit for three days straight. Seems like a huge risk to get one player voted out.

As for the last part, my point was that you were assuming I still felt the same way about Meatwad as I did d1. You didn't ask, you didn't try to question, you just rolled on as though nothing had changed. Why?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
This isn't everyone in my pool yet, but it's a start. There's actually been very little about Meatwad one way or another from this contingent in this post - malus, kitsunelaine, and Kalor. Kalor has the most but there's no - pardon, I can't help it - meat to it.

May as well put out a "would vote" list:

would vote today:
Maolfunction
Turmoil
(Kitsunelaine)
Meatwad
Kopite
Kalor

would consider but not likely:
Fat4All
KetKat

would not vote today
Fantomas
Fandorin
Fran
Monkey
Gorlak

I already gave my feelings about Mao and Turmoil. Kits should probably be in the would consider pile now after the replacement, but her attack on Gorlak after his vote left me with a sour taste. Meatwad only appears when prodded and doesn't have much other content. Similar situation with Kalor and Kopite. Not much content to look at and haven't really taken a stand.

KetKat doesn't have many posts, but what is there has some good thoughts in them. Not sure what to make of Fat4All.

The "won't vote" pile are mainly people that are driving discussion and I feel are trying to solve the game.

Sorry for the only short explanation. I'll have to leave soon.
malus felt Meatwad was inactive ;that was about it for reasons to vote. Fair for d1 but nothing really there.

There was another one in here that maybe I didn't grab - or maybe you can only hold so many quotes at once? about malus thinking Kopite and Meatwad were pretty interchangeable early game.

Then we get to today-

I did some rereading last night, but didn't come away with any strong new reads.

At the moment I'm probably most suspicious of Fran and VA/Zeke. Though after Maols flip I'd say Fran went up on the town list by a few points. VA had some suspicious posts and Zeke hasn't done anything yet.

I found Meatwads vote to be quite strange. It came out of nothing and without any reasoning whether it was because of the "red check" or because of Maols behaviour.

Fat4All would be next on the list. He has expressed some doubt about Monkeys claim. To me it sounds like he wants to seed some suspicion there to discredit her without fully committing.

I still have a hard time reading Kalor and Kopite. I wouldn't be surprised to find scum among them.

Fandorin has given some good insight so far. I don't agree with everything he's said, but I think his effort to solve is genuine.

Gorlak has been very active and was in my opinion the one doing most of the work to solve the game. Solid town read.

I feel pretty good about Monkey. Her role claim was too out there to be made up by scum in my opinion although I think the truth test she did last night was really unnecessary and could have been used better to get the opinion of the dead on current events.

I'm inclined to believe Kits claim. Though I could see her actually being the neutral marking Gorlak.
Speaking of marking: Any new marks today?

Not a lot on Meatwad but Meatwad seems to be a side consideration for malus. Some of this is just summary, some of it is go either way, but there does seem to be a little work around Fran and VA/Zeke, and malus outside of all this was posting some helpful information to Zeke. I come away from looking at malus on Meatwad with two thoughts:

I think it's a little strange that malus has been light on Meatwad, who has definitely been in contention off and on, but I also feel very slightly better about him overall.

kitsunelaine on the other hand has almost nothing about Meatwad at all. He gets mentioned when she lists all players but this is really the only read I found:

The arguments to vote for Meatwad seemed more convincing when I caught up with the game this morning but my brain's still in too much of a haze to go back and quote them individually.

So maybe she buys other people on Meatwad but she has no real thoughts about him whatsoever. This is as light as malus but without the rest of what makes me feel better about malus overall. This is in line with my overall impression about kits in this game - she's very focused on her role and her idea for this neutral and not a whole lot else.

I will say, as a counterpoint, if kits is telling the truth about her role, that could cause some weird tunnel vision; she may feel like her main job is to find the oddity. I don't know. But it does stand out a little.

Kalor has a lot more than anyone else in the group I was looking at. But almost all of it is tied to VA/Zeke:

For the other popular lynch votes right now, Meatwad has been lower activity but their Turmoil vote is weird. Unless I missed it I don't believe they had a reason for it. Just sort of happened.

Vincent I see the justification for but don't feel inclined to vote for them myself.
Here's the first tie to VA/Zeke ^^

Now that I've had more time to think about Maol the less sure I feel about that vote. Partly because it's an easy excuse for scum to vote for someone and not stick out too much (says one of the only 2 people actively voting for them right now). But then there's the conflicting side where some of Maols actions prior to revealing don't really line up with what their role, and the claim itself and the handling of it afterwards has just been messy. Although this has sort of been a game of messy role claims so far.

Other brief misc thoughts that I should get out there since I've been lacking in that regard.
  • I think Kits, Vincent and Gorlak are probably town. Kits is probably the one I'm least sure out of the batch.
  • I continue to think Monkeys role is believable, at least with the information that we have currently.
  • Wary of Malus, meatwad and Fantomas. The latter being one I don't have much evidence for besides a gut feeling.
Here, later, VA is town - this is a progression I may want to read up on because it shifts again later. But the third bullet is what's really interesting to me. malus, Meatwad, and Fantomas. Fantomas we know is town. malus we don't know. But we do know Meatwad has been a focus - putting him in the middle there, with more focus on Fanto even if it's wavery, takes focus OFF the middle name; that's a prime scum tactic (always put your mates in the middle of a list if you're scumreading them so they stick out less).

Maybe they'll pick up later but I feel like Zeke might be scum and he's going to try to coast on his replacement status today so he doesn't have to contribute much.

Vote: EzekelRAGE

For top 2 scum, I'm currently to Zeke and Meatwad.
Today we're back to VA/Zeke as scum, not town, so a different read at every point now, and linked again to Meatwad. Note that the vote is on Zeke, not Meatwad.

No. I was doing some rereading of Vincent last night and that shifted my opinion despite leaning town on them yesterday.

The main posts that stuck out were these two. Vincent votes for Meatwad on day 1, bit wishy washy but nothing too weird for day 1.

But then they go back on that vote fairly quickly because three people, Monkey, Gorlak and Fandorin, questioned the vote either directly or indirectly. This just feels like Vincent trying to blend in and not arouse too much suspicion with their votes. They sort of did the same with Maol yesterday as well, but not to the same degree and suddenness.

Unrelated to Vincent themselves but a post I missed at the time but saw during the rereading, this is a real weird post.

I have no idea what kind of reasoning that is not to vote for someone. "Let's not bother voting for this person because they'll slip up eventually if they're scum.". Making this post has me seeing weird connections that might exist but feel too clean to actually be real. Both Gorlak and Monkey talked down the Meatwad vote from Vincent in a sort of weird way. If the three were scum, it feels way too protective for two scum to do that on day 1 but it feels weird. Maybe just seeing things that aren't there.

Yeah, there's no way on this planet that the scum team in this game is Gorlak, me, and Meatwad, first of all; Kalor's right about that. Replace Meatwad with VA and it's still a stretch; Gorlak and I being teamed IN GENERAL this game would mean we've spent a huge amount of posts on a fake fight, way more than necessary. This is a huge reach on every level. Interesting that this is twice though that Kalor and Kopite have made similar arguments.

But again VA/Zeke is linked to Meatwad but the focus he puts is on VA/Zeke, not Meatwad. And Zeke can't really defend his predecessor either way.

I hadn't been up long so I just mentioned the reason that stuck out when I was catching up.

Part of it is trying to reconcile my suspicion of both of you with the fact Vincent voted for Meatwad so early on day 1. Not sure how that fits in quite yet. I need to reread Meatwad at some point so maybe I'd feel differently after that.

Again the tie to VA/Zeke, focus there, and a promise to reread Meatwad at some point.

But I think what's most fascinating here is that Meatwad has been on Kalor's radar in some way or another since early game but he's never the focus or the target; there's some vague gesturing that he might be scum but the focus is always elsewhere.

I think there's a good chance those two could teamed up together if Meatwad is scum. I feel very strongly about my Kalor scumread here regardless.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Because I thought that I understood your role when you asked for some true statements to test it but I don't understand how this is related to what I thought.
The pool of potential targets changes every day and d1 if I could have I would have asked about someone else. It's why I needed several people to do "objective truth" posts if we were going to test yesterday. I didn't know who would be available.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
The real question I have is if the focus on VA/Zeke from Kalor is legit or not. Like is Kalor just a townie tunneling a bit? If he's scum, is he really trying to get VA/Zeke out? Could that be the big bus with Meatwad as a little bus? I'd love some opinions on that if anyone else is around. Because for all this, Kalor has not voted for either of them prior to today: he voted for turmoil and then Maol. Only today has he voted for Zeke.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
Scum knew Maol's aligment and they knew he wasn't lying so they would want to push for his lynch but not to hard so they are in trouble when he flips or they would say that they townread him, so let's see the votes yesterday:


VA said since the day began that Maol was one of his top scum reads. He never doubted his reads and makes me think that, if he were scum, he would have know that Maol was town and wouldn't acted like this. I'm townreading VA and now Zeke.

Like VA, he never doubted that Maol was scum. Town lean to me.
Fran, you missed this the post below in which VA very clearly "doubts" his scum read on Maol and actually unvoted. It's also a post where he reconsidered his scum read on you.

I skimmed through your D2 posts and couldn't find a actual read on VA before this town read on him. What did you think about him before this phase?
UNVOTE

I dunno. I caught up, then re-read page 1 to 11, and am going to go pass out. I'm just going to re-cap some of my previous thoughts....Fran was suspicious to me purely because of EoD1. One particular post was:


I called this post a stretch and defensive, and Fran responded:
Going back and re-reading EoD with this lens, I can follow Fran's logic. And I think I buy into it, for now. So...let's bump Fran off my lean scum list for now.

As for Maol, I genuinely can't tell anymore whether I want to vote him because I think he is scum or if it's because I know I'm going to be pissed at myself if we let him go until Day 4 and he winds up being scum. Looking back at D1 suspicions on Maol as I read through the pages, and I get a sense some of the leans came from people voting (what they considered) bad play, and it sort-of sprouted out of that post Maol made about dropping a random vote. And it just kind of...carried on, and evolved into bickering and sniping at one another. If there is more to Maol suspicion D1, someone me with the deets, because it looks like a mountain was slowly made out of a molehill. I just can't help but read most of Maol's posts EoD, and today even, as townie. So...I'm taking Maol off my list for now as well.

I have to find someone new....
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,058
The real question I have is if the focus on VA/Zeke from Kalor is legit or not. Like is Kalor just a townie tunneling a bit? If he's scum, is he really trying to get VA/Zeke out? Could that be the big bus with Meatwad as a little bus? I'd love some opinions on that if anyone else is around. Because for all this, Kalor has not voted for either of them prior to today: he voted for turmoil and then Maol. Only today has he voted for Zeke.
I already questioned it. His initial reasoning for voting was very weak. Only mentioned the potential of me coasting as his reasoning. After being called out he changed it to say he felt something scummy about va beforehand that he townread initially?

He didn't give a good reasoning as to why me over meat.

Hasn't explained why he scumread meat.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Yeah, it was a really weak vote, without much conviction behind it, especially for someone who's been on that tip for a few days.

How's your catchup going? Any other thoughts?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
When Maol mentioned his entire role had changed I believed it based on the specifics of my role.

I didn't think that made Maol more or less Town, tho, as I assume the Hated role change could probably effect both Scum and Town.

Getting the flip confirms to me that there may be multiple 'role change' roles/abilities, whether they effect you or someone you target.
I would really like to hear more about this, doggo.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
The real question I have is if the focus on VA/Zeke from Kalor is legit or not. Like is Kalor just a townie tunneling a bit? If he's scum, is he really trying to get VA/Zeke out? Could that be the big bus with Meatwad as a little bus? I'd love some opinions on that if anyone else is around. Because for all this, Kalor has not voted for either of them prior to today: he voted for turmoil and then Maol. Only today has he voted for Zeke.
The shift from town reading VA last phase to opening up the day with an off the track accusation that Zeke would coast today is pretty weird - the change in read after a reread is ok, but why not start from there then?

He also mentions that VA voted so early for Meat on D1 but I disagree on this, it was actually a pretty late vote and one that put some weight into the Meatwad wagon then.

I'm not a fan of voting Turmoil at the moment because that train looks strong, and I'd like there to be some competition to drive discussion. Sooo.

VOTE: Meatwad

Turmoil has a vote here also, so should be a fun park to try and get a fire going.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,574
here
I would really like to hear more about this, doggo.
My role changes when specific things happen in the game (While I am being vague here, I do know exactly what has to happen).

But the change itself is more or less out of my control. I can't initiate the change on my own. It's not something I 'activate'.

It does specifically mention the 'role' being changed, not the alliance, or character, or what have you.

It seems very likely that whatever roles out there that can change a persons role, specifically target other players, it won't change whether they are Scum or Town, just what that Scum or Town can do.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
My role changes when specific things happen in the game (While I am being vague here, I do know exactly what has to happen).

But the change itself is more or less out of my control. I can't initiate the change on my own. It's not something I 'activate'.

It does specifically mention the 'role' being changed, not the alliance, or character, or what have you.

It seems very likely that whatever roles out there that can change a persons role, specifically target other players, it won't change whether they are Scum or Town, just what that Scum or Town can do.
This is consistent with what you said before but since you were really open about it here, I don't think it had really hit me before. What you were saying, I mean. So, not fishing, just trying to make sure I'm on the same page - certain game conditions/states happen and you change? Interesting.

A self change vs: a forced change initiated by another. I do agree that any change is unlikely to change alignment, especially in a small game.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
This runthrough of Kopite on Meatwad makes me want to take him off my list, at least for today. If Kalor's scum, I don't know if I see a scummate going this hard against him. Not impossible but seems unlikely. His progression on Meatwad is okay, too; he scumreads him but wanted to see the Maol flip yesterday, which I think is not a bad look here.

He also called out Kalor's inconsistencies early, as you can see below. Don't really have other commentary on the first two posts:

Fanto's post about Meadwad made me see that his read on doggo was 'Plays like Blarg'. That's the same take I had and a couple of posters then told me that he doesn't play that Blargly. I think Fantos right here that Meat is just sheeping his reads. Can others look back at the post (sorry for not quoting it, damn mobile) and tell us what you think? Would also like Meatwad to respond to it.

Gorlak, I'll do a read on Kalor before EOD.
Very brief reread on Kalor, he has some curious interactions with VA. Starts off calling VA out for claiming town lol, which is odd. And then over the course of the game he now townreads VA because apparently VA is genuinely trying to gamesolve, and I think few of us feel that way. What does this mean, if they're both scum would Kalor draw attention to his teammate so early, or did he pick on something harmless because it was safest to do so, and he'd 'come around' on VA over the course of the game? Something I'd pay closer attention to.

Meatwad's my strongest scum read for now, I don't feel good about them and think they're not really interested in solving the game, most likely because they might know who's scum already lel.

I still can't see beyond lunching Mao though, we need to see that flip

This below is one of the few that I'd sideeye a little, though. Maybe because I don't know what he means here by Kalor's interactions being "off" with Zeke. It seems like it's actually more targeted against Zeke there than Kalor, but starts with Kalor?

Kopite, what do you think of fatdog's extensions now on his role? He's still being vague (and that could be a legit position; there's no reason for him to claim here) but you hypothesize him as a potential neutral here.
Meatwad, the sheeping and their vote sorta felt like "Mao is town, town's gonna lynch him anyway, lets get on with it so we can discuss who to NK".

Kalor's interactions with VA/now Zeke also felt a little off, I'd have expected Zeke to be solving/trying to read through the game more (20 pages isnt that much) than he has but maybe I'm being a little unreasonable there.

Fran was a little suspect to me yesterday but I think that post where they analysed how we voted for Mao made me feel a lot better.

I mentioned I also felt better about doggo yesterday and I think they're not as scummy as Meat/Kalor but I want to hear more from them today. Could also see him being the neutral.

speaking of which if this neutral is functioning like an Arsonist maybe the game has 2 mafia + 1 evil neutral? Would that make sense?
This is also one of the few situations in which I could see an arsonist here^^ but two scum is a big hill to climb.
Huh this read sounds really scummy to me. There's no justification in the vote at all. You're just afraid a scum Zeke will coast? It sounds like you think Zeke is coasting and you're trying to get an easy lunch through
Dude this is some weak ass reasoning.It isn't D1 anymore, and you've already stated that this vote is because you scum read Zeke, so it's not a pressure vote to get more info. Why is your mind here right now, why are you scumreading Zeke and Meatwad?
Again, these two seem to go pretty hard against Kalor. Seems legit but if Kopite backs off for any weak reasoning I think I'd watch; otherwise I'm inclined to think it's real.
Kalor's looking suspect after the last couple of posts, let me try to play around with him, Meatwad and Monkey.

Kalor makes a post saying that he scumreads Meat and Zeke. Offers no explanation but makes a vote. Gets called out, weak defence. Did he bring up Meatwad who's on many a scum list to get some town cred? Also maybe that's just some prep for a potential bus later. And speaking of busses, this post got highlighted again (ironically by Kalor)
This one's weird. Are you saying you think the three of us could be a team? Or were we just the people you were going to look at?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Anyway, since no one is active in here, I guess I'll go to bed? I'd give Meatwad the treatment I gave the others today but he's not been active due to work and honestly I'm really more interested in what people have been doing around him as one of the only other vote candidates we've had so far.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
The shift from town reading VA last phase to opening up the day with an off the track accusation that Zeke would coast today is pretty weird - the change in read after a reread is ok, but why not start from there then?
I think it's pretty clear that Kalor was trying to coast hardcore, had no interested in solving whatsoever and only ever "tried" to post in response to my questions/accusations (aside from the most basic observations). He threw out these reads after I called him out, to appear more active. I asked for reasons and for quotes afterwards:
I just think some of their posts today have read well as town. Feels like they're putting an effort in to figure out the game.
I shall provide some quotes at some point once I have the time.
Those never came. As you observed this is how he started today:
For top 2 scum, I'm currently to Zeke and Meatwad.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
Continuing on Kalor: I had some ideas that he could be an important PR trying to lay super low until he can drop the info, but he was vanilla. He just didn't play the game bc of reasons.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
Vote progression:
The turmoil vote was started by me. town!Fantomas follows.
The next three on turm are Meat, Monkey, Kalor. At least one of them is scum.

Mao voters not confirmed town Malus, Monkey, Fran. At least one of them is scum.