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Oct 27, 2017
2,240
You seem to have missed this Dr. Monkey.

You sure as hell are not called Medium, otherwise you would have been upfront about that. The whole way of drip feeding information and letting others doing the puzzle work of what your role could be, feels wrong. I agree to an extent with Fat4all in this regard.

But you aren't The Cop either, because you would be more certain about your info. This leads to the question, why present it as a red check? Because it was phrased like that in an answer to your specific question? You know better, you apparently even gave the template with your question. If it is a message from "someone" why do you trust the wording? You've seen fake messages before.

So all in all, I'm very hung up about all of this and can't make sense of it. At the same time I don't think we'll figure out more today, so please answer my question above and we'll move on.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
Re: Mao
He claims in #832: CDT6, dying generic soldier. He will die if still alive after D4. And that is super easy to prove. We just let him live...

Reactions follow:
A lotta claims out there for just D2. Lordy
You're pleading to be left alive until after D4? Are you serious Mao? Do you think your presence will not be a source of continuing discussion? Wouldn't it have been better to flip yourself than turmoil yesterday?
Generic soldier is also not in line with the rest of the flips/claims or my own role name.
Maol's claim could be real but it's also convenient since it encourages us to keep them alive until the end of day 4. Even if they don't win and exit the game, the damage of a potential scum or neutral role would already be done. They're going to be a constant point of discussion until the end of day 4 now.
Lol. This role is a bad lie. There is no way that a reviewer approved this role. It's a really shitty role to give a player as they have a death sentence on them when the game starts.
Also, what would happen if town is in mylo/lylo at the end of D4? They instant lose? That makes no sense.
That doesn't sound right. You want town's trust to leave you alone until D5 really and it's a good idea to have that topic being brought up everyday to waste town's time as well?
And of course town would've voted you out, I definitely would have, if you asked.
Just got caught up but dont have much time to comment. Just quickly, Mao's claim is quite strange to me, I'm not sure what to make of it yet.
If I have more time on a later break I'll try to get some more thoughts and a vote down.
Things to note:
Vincent Alexander abstains from any comment on the actual claim
Fandorin posts during that time, but doesn't go into the claim at all either.

This all happens in a 45 minute span, until Mao posts this:
Ah, well, this is awkward. I just got a clarifying PM from Natiko saying there's been a bit of confusion. My Hated modifier was not a modifier.
My whole role has been replaced. I'm no longer slated to die end of D4, now my role is just I require one less vote to be lunched.
Uh, yeah, don't know how to make this sound credible.
The biggest problem everyone points out just goes *puff* Don't worry town, this sounds more believable doesn't it?
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
Maolfunction I have to ask again: Why did you not reveal your suicidal role at the end of the day? You were convinced turmoil was town and you said that your flip would provide info on others. Your alleged former role was a detriment to town.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
One more thing that caught my attention:

After my argument with kits, she was in a frivolous(?) mood, shooting posts from the hip:
Yeah. Could you reveal who marked you? I'll track them tonight.
I said track, i meant detect, still not used to certsin words being morenuanced in mafia
This could be absolutely nothing, but it could also be a slip and I don't want to let that go unnoticed.
 

Kopite

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,018
You seem to have missed this Dr. Monkey.

You sure as hell are not called Medium, otherwise you would have been upfront about that. The whole way of drip feeding information and letting others doing the puzzle work of what your role could be, feels wrong. I agree to an extent with Fat4all in this regard.

But you aren't The Cop either, because you would be more certain about your info. This leads to the question, why present it as a red check? Because it was phrased like that in an answer to your specific question? You know better, you apparently even gave the template with your question. If it is a message from "someone" why do you trust the wording? You've seen fake messages before.

So all in all, I'm very hung up about all of this and can't make sense of it. At the same time I don't think we'll figure out more today, so please answer my question above and we'll move on.
Monkey seems to believe that despite the wording of her PM, Natiko's the one answering. So if a Mod answers it's most likely true, although bastard elements could be in play
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
Spec chat can you please help me? I've lost the emotional distance to see things for what they are. Everyone gives reason to wonder and that makes it hard to decide where to focus. Let's try this as if I would be in spec chat? Alright, alright.
*comment about the absurd amount of claims
*town gonna town
*do they really believe this bullshit?
*why don't they see x doing y??

Monkey: opens the day and sets the tone with a red check that is not a red check. Super weird. But not at all a sustainable move as scum? Gambitting to get a lynch and surviving afterwards with all the caveats and that *ominous* I didn't reveal everything yet. Fishy, but for now I'd chalk it up to a weird role. Not the focus today.

Fantomas: is definitely having trouble with the transition between work and game here. Believes whatever monkey says, but that seems to be correct meta behaviour. Leaning town

kitsunelaine: claims out of nowhere, not seeing the utility for town here, but kits always does weird things, NAI. Claim could be cover up for being weird spooky thing herself, but the easier conclusion is that she is telling the truth? Still leaning town

Fat4All: Shows open distrust of the monkey claim. Has he commented on Mao? "I believe it" lol - that's all?

I think there is a weird dissonance in the thread - we have Fandorin, Mao, Fat going in the same direction and on the otherhand Fantomas, Monkey and a pint of Fran. Most prevalent with the reads on Fat4All. Something is in there, I have yet to figure out what.

Fandorin: Is active, but would probably my suspect if Mao flips scum. I do feel drawn more to his logic than elsewhere, but I know he's capable of faking it very good. Keeping him as null for now

Fran: EoD was sus, "all 3 of them are scum". Twice even. That felt like a knee jerk reaction and panic. Today he's sticking to the red check and his theory. But I do think it could come from a town point of view. Fuck, idk.

Malus: Is very concise, but also sharp. He puts his opinion out there and I tend to agree with his statements. Out of the low activity bunch, he's the one I'd townread. I could be fooled here, but he wouldn't be my priority right now.

Kalor: He's definitely different. He seems to avoid putting his opinion out. Anything that could connect him to anyone, he'll always preempt. Look at his posts, you can't get anything there. Defnitily someone I would push.

Meatwad: Came off as being inexperienced or afraid, but I've been burned by scum playing that card often. Tries to find his footing now, but there was one sentence that showed a level of self-awareness, that I wouldn't expect from town. You could add him to the above camp of Monkey and Fanto. Hmm.

Vincent Alexander: Rereading his D2. He's gone full circle, suspecting Fran and Mao, discussing it, rereading and ends up not finding them suspicious anymore. This doesn't feel faked to me as of now. Is it too much going with the flow? Some earlier posts felt like being active for the sake of it. Avoiding a thing or two. Null

Kopite: He might be the only one to question monkey's claim AND is suspicious of doggo. He stood firm to his opinion that Mao flips is the most useful. I was susprised because he actually put out decent contributions. I like his D2. He'd go into a similar category as Malus.

And lastly Mao:
While I liked EoD, he could've easily used me and turmoil. D2 was an uphill battle for him. In general I tend to follow his point of view. Fanto pointed out sth. strange in regards to me and I agree. A throwaway "I'm also paranoid about you" didn't feel that way at all.
The biggest problem is the retcon of his claim *after* significant doubts were voiced. If he truly misunderstood what happened to him, than that's a pity, but it does read like an out. I think malus put it best and brought forth the comparison to HvV2/meta.
The hard part is that everything sounds so believable.

But fellow spec members, town gonna town and let that fly, it's so absurd, right? Cabot would you lynch here? Fixing his claims is a red flag. But monkey's thing was also super weird and left everything open. Where to focus?
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
Conclusion:
I think I've convinced myself that we have to lunch Mao. "I'm not suicidal anymore" is too good of an adjustment and it popped up at the most convenient moment.

Apart from that I have really big doubts about Kalor and would like to lunch him. Meatwad is treading coasting territory, in a bad way.
 

Fat4all

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Oct 25, 2017
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I'm just saying I believe its possible at this point based on what I know.

It's very possible they delayed the info on purpose to see the reaction to the suicidal claim first.
 

Fat4all

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Oct 25, 2017
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So it comes down to wether he had a misunderstanding or not. What do you believe?
I believe he did actually have his role changed.

I'm not sure if Nat would specifically contact him to clarify on that point in the middle of the day, tho. Usually the player themselves contact the mod and ask for a clarification, but Mail made it sound like Nat reached out, iirc.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
At this moment they lean Scum to me. Their flip will likely net town the most info as well.
Okay, in my head I have several conspiracy theories, you seem to distrust monkey, if she is not town why does she start the day like this?

On a different note: What do you think about kits? You've been around, but didn't really engage back there yesterday (rl)
 

Fat4all

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Oct 25, 2017
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Okay, in my head I have several conspiracy theories, you seem to distrust monkey, if she is not town why does she start the day like this?
My thinking is if Monkey is Scum, that they tried to make up an important sounding role and mash it into an established Mafia role. Starting with their claim of a red check, and backtracking to 'medium' to make it seem more legit.

It doubt feel like Town play at all for (what we know of) the role to start today like Monkey did. But if it did work out without too much prodding, that could buy a Scum player a bit of time while being in a place of authority. It's hard to say if the 'medium' shift was a backdown or not, but I dunno.

It feels weird.
On a different note: What do you think about kits? You've been around, but didn't really engage back there yesterday (rl)
Kits I honestly don't have much of a read on.

There's a lot of players that kinda just stick around to post a bit and then have to bolt for hours, so a lot of the posts end up being "gonna be gone for a bit" and "I'm back, gonna catch up".

And I'm not blaming anyone for that, ya know. Life happens, people are busy, but that's kinda left me neutral on a bunch of folks.

The backpack thing seems believable. Death Stranding has like 6 characters and this is role madness, so everyone needs sommit even if it's weird and inanimate.

Neutral hunting tho seems kinda odd. I'm actually not sure if it's a common thing in Mafia or not for a role specifically to find the neutral.

unless getting scanned by Kits is a fail state for the neutral
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
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Oct 25, 2017
19,624
Now that I've had more time to think about Maol the less sure I feel about that vote. Partly because it's an easy excuse for scum to vote for someone and not stick out too much (says one of the only 2 people actively voting for them right now). But then there's the conflicting side where some of Maols actions prior to revealing don't really line up with what their role, and the claim itself and the handling of it afterwards has just been messy. Although this has sort of been a game of messy role claims so far.

Other brief misc thoughts that I should get out there since I've been lacking in that regard.
  • I think Kits, Vincent and Gorlak are probably town. Kits is probably the one I'm least sure out of the batch.
  • I continue to think Monkeys role is believable, at least with the information that we have currently.
  • Wary of Malus, meatwad and Fantomas. The latter being one I don't have much evidence for besides a gut feeling.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,240
How would monkey's red check work out at all if she's scum? Fat4all

I do agree that kits is lacking in terms of scum hunting and solving. Backpack is believable, yes. In regards to the neutral, that's still an assumption. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm kind of wondering if her claim was the answer to my bluff?

And there are differences in the lower activity posters in terms of quantity, quality and actual content they are talking about. You should be able to form a read on someone among these at least. Take a look at Kopite's posts from today for example and tell me what you see. That shouldn't take too long.
 

Fat4all

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Oct 25, 2017
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How would monkey's red check work out at all if she's scum? @Fat4all
Before the post making her role seem more like a 'medium', Monkey posted hypotheticals involving her check and possible misdirections or diverges of the abilities (in regards to Maol).

I think it's possible Monkey intended to not claim further at all today and let the Maol vote go through, but then decided to try and fit it into a more traditional Mafia role (medium or the like).

But I feel like that severely undercuts what they did at the start of the day, like, in a really bad way. This very clearly wasn't a red check from the getgo ifthe role is actually as described.

Then again, Monkey said there was more to the role she's holding back for now, so I dunno, maybe there's sommit there.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
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Oct 25, 2017
92,521
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I've gotta get to bed.

I'm gonna set my alarm for 4pm (an hour before EoD), but ive got a video conference to do right away, so there's a chance I might not pop back in before EoD.

Vote: Maolfunction

I feel like this flip will give us the most info overall, with the Monkey stuff and the role change stuff. And while I do think the role change happened, I do find how it was disclosed to be kinda suspect.
 

malus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,947
Hi malus,
what do you think about fran? Was he too hotheaded with his accusation EoD1? Is him following the same theory still townie or suspicious?
His theory of 3 scum members piling on him is certainly a big reach and reads a bit OMGUS. Not sure how to feel about him following the same theory today. On one hand If Maol is scum there could have been an effort to create three wagons in order to take some suspicion off Maol come D2.

On the other hand Fran made the following comment:
How do you know that he was targeted by Mafia? He hasn't claimed with what he was targeted.
This accusation goes completely counter to his argument, but he doesn't go further into it.

At this point I think he's just stubborn town because if he's scum he would know that if Maol flipped town his whole argument would fall apart. Unless this is some kind of soft busing attempt where Fran and Maol are on the scum team together.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
Three townies leaning scum on one player is a huge flag that the rest of town should take notice of. Investigative powers or not, your EoD play reeked of scum.

No, it isn't. Turmoil had 6 votes at the end of D1. Are you telling me that 4 of those are from scum?

I haven't seen you make a single serious suggestion of someone else to vote or who else might be scum. Your hemhawing about the nature of Monkey's role still fits with you being scum, you know her alignment. You know she'll flip town if she gets lunched, you're creating some false reasonable doubt that keeps you free of scrutiny when she flips.

Because I'm pretty sure that I found scum. And I said who I want to lynch next after you flip scum. And I said plenty of times that Monkey's check is not actually a check so we shouldn't lynch her based on that check.

I'm going to be pissed at myself if we let him go until Day 4 and he winds up being scum.

But he already changed his claim. Now he won't die. Aren't we lucky?

I'm left with the belief that if Maol flips town, it tells us nothing about Monkey. IF Monkey is scum, her power lets her distance herself from the check real easy and play innocent.

Maol flip shouldn't tell you something about Monkey because she can't check. Even more, Monkey's role will be impossible to check as she could just fake all her results and just say that spec chat told her that.

Gorlak and Fran seem weird and aggressive to me, in a way that sets them apart from most other players in this game so far. I'd be down for a vote on either.

Since when being aggressive is the same as being scum?
 

Fanto

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Oct 25, 2017
11,863
Vote: Meatwad

Good morning, everyone!

I think Meatwad has been repeating what others have already said for too much this phase, and it makes me think he is just trying to sheep along with popular opinions and not get scrutinized for them.
Monkey: Her Roleclaim is odd for sure, but she's been engaging people. answering questions in a way that seems honest to me, and despite coming in with a red check on Mao hasn't pushed for a turbo against him. Monkey is a strong town lean imo

Fantomas, has been very active and genuinely seems like he wants to solve the game, Strong town lean

Kitsulane, not sure, her roleclaim is strange, I'm not sure what to make of it to be honest, she seems genuine otherwise. Slight town lean

Fat4All Seems to be a Blarg style player, Funny but difficult to read. Null

Fran, Fran is historically hard for me to read. He makes some good arguments and appears helpful but the last time I thought I had him pegged I turned out to be wrong Fran lean

Gorlak came off suspicious EOD 1 with the Fran vote and his animus towards Monkey and Fran but seems to be genuinely engaged now. Null

Fandoran, has been intent on tunneling me for some reason. I would like an explanation of why out of all the players in this game he's so focused on me. Has yet to present a solid case. Kinda comes off as trying to get a train going on a weak player. Slight scum lean.

Mao, I don't think I buy Mao's claim of being a doomed townie and then suddenly having his role change to be hated townie. I don't know why he claimed that in the first place but it seems like he realized his claim wouldn't work if he didn't die so he had to change it. He's played mostly defensively and hasn't shown much interest in scum hunting. He hasn't done anything to make me think the red check Monkey received is a mistake. Scum lean
These reads are all pretty safe and variations on what others have said about these players already.
Mao lynch seems most likely, but I don't think it's wise to rush into it
General sentiment expressed by many.
So catching up, Monkey's role is similar to a medium and we can't be sure she got good info, and Kits is a backpack searching for a neutral and Gorlak got a handprint and that may be related to the neutral that Kits is trying to find?
Basically just repeating what I had already said about all of that.
In my opinion something like marking people with a handprint sounds like a neutral role and it makes sense to me that Kits role is designed to find this neutral.

That's assuming Kits is telling the truth about her role of course.
Again, repeating something myself and others had already said about this.
Hello, If you had to vote right at this moment who would it be? I'm personally leaning towards Mao myself, Because of the strange nature of his roleclaim, the fact that he only seems to appear to defend himself, and seems set on the idea Fran is scum without considering other possibilities, and then there's the red check Monkey says she got.

Seems like the safest bet imo. Thoughts?
I honestly can't tell if Meatwad just didn't read my read list from right before this where I said basically the same thing about Mao, or if this is just another instance of him repeating other people's opinions.
Yeah if I couldn't vote for Mao I would go for a low info player such as Kalor, Kopite or Malus. They've shown up so infrequently this phase that they've pretty much been in my blind spot as I've tried to keep up with the major goings on and that concerns me. I'm not going to full on accuse anyone of trying to fly under the radar but they have been under my radar, I'm going to be keeping an eye on them going forward.
Agrees with me on who he would vote for besides Mao, which is someone in the Lurker realm.

Those are the posts from Meatwad today that have stuck out to me the most, making me feel like he is just sheeping along and trying to stay under the radar, doesn't want to rock the boat, doesn't want to stick out from the pack.
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
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Oct 25, 2017
19,624
Hm, ok? Do you have two quotes for that to underline your argument?

In the same vein what did you not like about malus to be wary of him?

/gosh, you must really hate me, don't you?

I shall provide some quotes at some point once I have the time.

As for Malus, it's mostly because I looked at the player list and realized I have no idea of any of their stances. Granted they have less posts than I do so perhaps that's only natural.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
You seem to have missed this Dr. Monkey.

You sure as hell are not called Medium, otherwise you would have been upfront about that. The whole way of drip feeding information and letting others doing the puzzle work of what your role could be, feels wrong. I agree to an extent with Fat4all in this regard.

But you aren't The Cop either, because you would be more certain about your info. This leads to the question, why present it as a red check? Because it was phrased like that in an answer to your specific question? You know better, you apparently even gave the template with your question. If it is a message from "someone" why do you trust the wording? You've seen fake messages before.

So all in all, I'm very hung up about all of this and can't make sense of it. At the same time I don't think we'll figure out more today, so please answer my question above and we'll move on.
You're right, I missed this, but welcome to my world. You're right that I'm not labeled medium; I am Mama the Spirit Mother, and the closest variation I've been able to find on any wiki is spirit talker, which is listed as an alternate name for medium, but.... big shrug emoji. But no, sorry, I don't "know better" - I got an answer that led me to believe it was not turmoil who was answering, but Natiko. Further, I couldn't see any world in which turmoil would label Maol as scum after EoD1 without spoilers and still not in that form.

So yeah, it seemed like a red check. It's possible I guess that Natiko could be rephrasing answers. I do not have enough information to make that determination either way.

I have a weird, complicated role in a bastard game and I'm doing the best I can with it. I haven't seen anything like a medium before (the game you mentioned was way before my time and I never read it, have just heard references to it) - honestly, the thing I thought of was Volcano Island, and given what I got, I really don't know where the message/result comes from. I can only report what it is and what my role PM says.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
I think Meatwad has been repeating what others have already said for too much this phase, and it makes me think he is just trying to sheep along with popular opinions and not get scrutinized for them.
I actually feel this also describes Vincent, except for a couple outlier comments, and feel Meatwad has been at least more willing to engage, but it's probably fair on both.

Got a lot to read and probably will only have time for a couple more posts over the next several hours since I gotta finish getting ready for my interview.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
When you are reviewing a game flavour doesn't matter. Even more, reviewers usually aren't told the flavour of the game (I never was at least).
This is such a small thing and it probably doesn't matter for the game at all so ignore me I guess but also what??? You mean the flavor in role PMs? Because game theme is usually pretty obvious when reviewing if not blatantly so.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Monkey asks "Is Maol aligned with Town" and got back the answer "No". Monkey said earlier that she could only ask specific questions, I'm wondering, if you could ask "Is Maol aligned with Town", could you of asked "Is Maol Scum"?
Natiko says this is a question I could ask.

I note that he does not say if it would be approved. -.-
 

Fanto

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Oct 25, 2017
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Don't forget, you also promised me to read Fran at the start of the day, I'll keep reminding you.
Just looking back quickly, I saw something from Fran that caught my eye right here:
When you are reviewing a game flavour doesn't matter. Even more, reviewers usually aren't told the flavour of the game (I never was at least).
This doesn't make sense to me? My reviewers for LiS were Faddy and Geno, and they definitely both knew that it was Life is Strange Mafia, they told me they had not played it, and Faddy even deep dived into some LiS Wiki articles to understand the flavor more since at least some of the roles were tied to flavor in that game. Why would a reviewer not know the flavor of the game they are reviewing? This is just a weird comment to me.

--

Sorry, I only have like an hour or so here and I want to get some more real-time interactions in while I can since I'll be at work for EoD and trying my best to keep up during all of that so I don't really want to dive into a big reread of Fran right now.
 

Fran

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Oct 25, 2017
6,167
This is such a small thing and it probably doesn't matter for the game at all so ignore me I guess but also what??? You mean the flavor in role PMs? Because game theme is usually pretty obvious when reviewing if not blatantly so.

I'm saying that no reviewer would allow an unfair role even if it matches with the flavour of the game. Flavour is just flavour and it shouldn't impact balance.

I have review several games without having a single clue about the flavour of the game, even one of yours.
 

Fanto

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Oct 25, 2017
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I still stand by what I said earlier as well about the Mao flip basically needing to happen so I can really figure out where I want to go from here, but I also don't like just piling my vote onto someone who seems certain to be lunched for the day. I had held off of voting for too long today and I feel bad about that now, I should have been trying to stir up some more things while I had the chance but I didn't.
 

Kalor

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Oct 25, 2017
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Don't forget, you also promised me to read Fran at the start of the day, I'll keep reminding you.

Did I? I have no memory of that or any reminders of it. I'm not sure what to make of Fran. They'd be one of the players that fall into my "No clue" category right now.
 

Fanto

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Oct 25, 2017
11,863
Fantomas did Kalor drop off your suspicion list?
Not at all, I still find him to be suspicious, but I've voiced that plenty already. After seeing what Mao had to say about Meatwad and Fran connections that he has noticed, that caused me to take a closer look into at least Meatwad for now since he has fewer posts than Fran and I was able to go through them this morning when I woke up and I had already had some sheepish vibes from him during the day that kept adding up. I'm not sure if I would want to vote Fran today though, but I do want to try stirring up some things elsewhere while we have the chance.