If we believe Monkey's last claim we shouldn't use that red check as a confirmed check.
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Death Stranding Mafia |OT| Bridge the Divides in Society (Via Murder)
- Thread starter Natiko
- Start date
If we believe Monkey's last claim we shouldn't use that red check as a confirmed check.
His vote on D1 for Fat4All was pretty throwaway and he avoided taking a stance on Turmoil or anyone else in contention, which made me suspicious. Today he's engaged more in talking about role claims and mechanics than talking about any of his own reads, so to me it just seems like naturally scummy behavior.
Anything really, I just prefer playing when other people are around to talk lol.
Yeah if I couldn't vote for Mao I would go for a low info player such as Kalor, Kopite or Malus. They've shown up so infrequently this phase that they've pretty much been in my blind spot as I've tried to keep up with the major goings on and that concerns me. I'm not going to full on accuse anyone of trying to fly under the radar but they have been under my radar, I'm going to be keeping an eye on them going forward.
Oh I'm not suggesting it's a confirmed check. Just saying within the context of Mao's behavior, it's possible that the check is good
This is the second time you've stated the fact I'm playing defensively like it's a bad thing and acting like I haven't made any other reads in the game, which is completely not true. I was almost lynched on D1 and today I'm a townie looking at a red check on me. What town mafia player do you know that would not play defense when faced with that situation? In fact, most of the game at this point revolves around me and how people perceive my play. It's not a very strong position to start jumping into reading other players when the rest of the game is squarely centered on me.
Second, I've made more reads than just Fran. I've indicated reasons why you yourself are not townie. And if Fran is scum, there's very good indications that you are also his teammate. Let's break that down. First, Fran votes you early on D1. Very easy bussing attempt. When he votes me, he ties the wagons between me and you, essentially protecting you by pushing my wagon further into contention. Next, come D2, you're keen with him to follow Monkey's red check, not stopping to consider if her role and her power are actually investigative or not. There's strong reasoning in both her claim and my claim that her results are tied to death, not alignment. But you've skipped past all of this to back up Fran, who's still firmly in the "Don't believe Mao" camp.
Third, a good chunk of the game has contributed fuck all to this game other than a few comments on my alignment and playstyle. I lean town on Gorlak, Monkey and Fat4All and explained my leans already. Fanto could be town, but he also doesn't seem to be engaging critically with what I've said at all, so who knows if he's attempting to skate through today undetected as scum or just also clueless townie trying to navigate a rather ridiculous day phase. The only other player I haven't said much is Fandorin, and Fando right now could also go either way. He's done a good job of staying active and considering the viewpoints off all the players, but he did the same thing as scum when I was partnered with him in HvV2, so there's not much of a stance I can take with him as of now.
I don't mind being the lunch today, but goddamn, saying that I'm not doing anything townie is just a flat out lie.
Well I certainly appreciate your reads, I am actually giving you a chance, otherwise I would have already dropped a vote. But surely you can see why people are skeptical of you. And yes I realize Monkey's role is non-standard and I am not trying to claim her red check is definitive. That doesn't mean though that we should just disregard it.
That, and the fact that I am not good at playing sporadically, I prefer to be around as much as possible, so not being around for like 3/4 of every day is something I am trying to get used to if I want to keep playing Mafia at all.
So a Meatwad + Fran + Fando world is what you're possibly looking at here? I could buy it, Meatwad feels like he's sheeping some majority opinions a lot, and Fando has somewhat given me that feel as well. Fran is always possible, he's really good and has fooled me early on in the past, like just last game in HvV2.
Can you point me to a post with your Town read on Fat4All by chance? I just checked back quick and saw one where you explained why he wouldn't be Scum with you, but didn't see a Town read on him.
I'm not sure I'm buying all of what Dr. Monkey is selling. Like I said prevoiusly in my drunken ramblings, the more I sit on today the less I trust how Dr. Monkey's claim unraveled through the day so far.
We started the day immediately with this:
This soft claim annoyed me for the reason I stated earlier today; why are you claiming so early, why couldn't you've sat on this info, etc.
Dr. Monkey's general response was:
So. Dr. Monkey got a red check. Dr. Monkey does not sit on red checks. Simple enough.
Monkey goes through a few scenarios discussing the possible misdirection of her check on Maol. She calls her power a 'check' still at this point.
Though at the start of the day Monkey is keen on not full claiming their role, they do so anyways (with very little prodding from others):
This quote from a bit later is also relevent:
So, this is what sticks out to me:
Monkey asks "Is Maol aligned with Town" and got back the answer "No". Monkey said earlier that she could only ask specific questions, I'm wondering, if you could ask "Is Maol aligned with Town", could you of asked "Is Maol Scum"?
Monkey herself said she wasn't 100% positive where the information was coming from, but still considered this a "red check", when I feel like this could be one of any number of things.
But because Monkey felt this was a red check, and Monkey doesn't sit on red checks, day 2 opens with the claim. Looking more and more at this role, Mama, this is a role that seems like it would get better the longer it's in the game. A net positive for town when you get a few days in and have a stash of info you can drop when the need be.
Is Monkey expecting night protection? If she is Town I hope she gets it.
I feel the inconsistencies of the day 2 Monkey claim feels very unbalanced;
going from "I don't sit on red checks. I don't want to full claim unless I have to."
to "Here's the full claim, it's not exactly a red check, I have slight doubts about where it comes from"
(not direct quotes)
Her role doesn't sound like one that could be misdirected, or altered. Maybe the message comes from the dead, maybe it comes from Spec chat. I doubt it comes from Scum, going by the supposed wording from Monkeys claim.
Or Monkey came up with the role herself, and Mama is one of the provided Scum roles.
Sure lets lynch Maol today, maybe I'm too much in my own head about this and Monkey found some Scum.
but if they flip Town then I think Monkey is Scum, one hundo
We started the day immediately with this:
This soft claim annoyed me for the reason I stated earlier today; why are you claiming so early, why couldn't you've sat on this info, etc.
Dr. Monkey's general response was:
So. Dr. Monkey got a red check. Dr. Monkey does not sit on red checks. Simple enough.
Monkey goes through a few scenarios discussing the possible misdirection of her check on Maol. She calls her power a 'check' still at this point.
Though at the start of the day Monkey is keen on not full claiming their role, they do so anyways (with very little prodding from others):
This quote from a bit later is also relevent:
So, this is what sticks out to me:
Monkey asks "Is Maol aligned with Town" and got back the answer "No". Monkey said earlier that she could only ask specific questions, I'm wondering, if you could ask "Is Maol aligned with Town", could you of asked "Is Maol Scum"?
Monkey herself said she wasn't 100% positive where the information was coming from, but still considered this a "red check", when I feel like this could be one of any number of things.
But because Monkey felt this was a red check, and Monkey doesn't sit on red checks, day 2 opens with the claim. Looking more and more at this role, Mama, this is a role that seems like it would get better the longer it's in the game. A net positive for town when you get a few days in and have a stash of info you can drop when the need be.
Is Monkey expecting night protection? If she is Town I hope she gets it.
I feel the inconsistencies of the day 2 Monkey claim feels very unbalanced;
going from "I don't sit on red checks. I don't want to full claim unless I have to."
to "Here's the full claim, it's not exactly a red check, I have slight doubts about where it comes from"
(not direct quotes)
Her role doesn't sound like one that could be misdirected, or altered. Maybe the message comes from the dead, maybe it comes from Spec chat. I doubt it comes from Scum, going by the supposed wording from Monkeys claim.
Or Monkey came up with the role herself, and Mama is one of the provided Scum roles.
Sure lets lynch Maol today, maybe I'm too much in my own head about this and Monkey found some Scum.
but if they flip Town then I think Monkey is Scum, one hundo
I reread Kalor and Kopite.
Kalor: had a weird conversation with VA about a joke he made, voted 5th for Turmoil and he just parked the vote there. He didn't talked about anything else D1. D2 he just commented about Monkey's red check and Maol's claim. He is currently voting Maol. There is nothing to read here. It took me just 5 minutes to reread all of his posts. He is almost not playing the game.
Kopite: Made a weird comment about strong players vote, said that Doggo is a good vote because he could be chaotic like Blarg, voted for Fat4all. Nothing more D1. D2 he just talked a bit about Monkey's check and Kits claim. Also nothing much here. But that early comment about strong players is bothering me. I read it 4 times and it seemed worse everytime I reread it. It's such a strange take to make.
I felt not great about Fran for most of day one but I'm iffier today. I think without anything else on the table, I'd look at Fat4All or Kalor.
I'm amazed kits has so many posts. I guess they were all at once?
I'm amazed kits has so many posts. I guess they were all at once?
Fran+Meatwad, yes. Fandom, maybe but also just as likely, if not more likely, to be one if the people who's really not playing.
I have not full claimed. There is an aspect I will not reveal, as I've said like three times now, because it would impact the flow of gameplay in a negative way. I don't think it matters for evaluating the role, either.
I also said it's a long PM and there's more to the role, including how it's limited.
If I was making up a claim (or if Nat was as a fake claim), you'd think it would be a little simpler.
As for your question, I'll ask. I assume so since I could ask about town.
Thank you, and yeah I'd probably agree there too. Out of the Shadow Lurkers in the room, do any of them stick out as looking more suspicious to you than the others? Mainly speaking of people like Malus, Kopite, Kalor, and Vincent.
Hey look, even this post makes me think Fat4all is town. If the doggo is scum, it'd be pretty easy to just wait on my lunch and my flip. If doggo is scum, he knows I'm town, so he knows after the lunch, that Monkey is gonna look very bad start of D3. If he's scum, he sits on this info until the start of D3 and unleashes (dog puns!) all of this at day start, earning a bit of town cred in the process because any townie is gonna be suspicious of Monkey going into D3. It's not a scum tell and he's got a pretty good argument here.
But here's the thing. I don't think Fat knows my alignment because he posted this too early. He's keeping all his options wide and he's putting himself out there to make an argument against Monkey when he really doesn't have to yet if he's scum. If he's scum, he's dropped this too early to be effective as a scum ploy. If he's town he's clueless and trying to get a grasp on all the possibilities. I think the latter is far more likely.
Why did you asked if Maol was town instead of asking if he was scum? The second question seems like a better question.
Something that it's bothering me is that Kopite voted for Fat4all claiming that he could be like Blarg:
But I just checked and the both of them actually played together before (The Mansion Mafia, 9 months ago). I usually read too much into thinks like this so, I'm overthinking this or this could mean something?
Kalor, but only because Kalor has made the most of an attempt to play the game. I'm not sure how big the lurker scum strategy is here yet though.
You sure have double standards.
I caught you EoD yesterday and another confirmed town agreed with me and Gorlak who I also think is town picked up on the same vibe.The game is about to have two confirmed townies lean scum on you based on your EoD play.
You're playing survival mode right now and a Monkey mislunch would be wonderful for you. You're also not doubting Monkey's check today like Fat has been, you've been on board to follow her all day because you know she's wrong and will use that knowledge tomorrow to your advantage. Different situations.
But you can't trust the answer that Monkey got because, if she is telling the truth and she is a médium, she is just asking for opinions of someone.
And that means nothing because Turmoil didn't had investigative powers and, if we believe your claim, you don't either. So both of you could be wrong.
Are you freaking kidding me? Are you even reading my posts since Monkey changed he claim to medium? I have said plenty of times that we shouldn't trust that check.
But it still comes back to the start of the day
Monkey says she can't sit on a red check. She red checks Maol immediately. Even with what I'm saying Maol is likely gone today.
But then later we get more info about the claim, and that check is just kinda... not there.
It feels like an odd power play to make as a Town.
Three townies leaning scum on one player is a huge flag that the rest of town should take notice of. Investigative powers or not, your EoD play reeked of scum.
I haven't seen you make a single serious suggestion of someone else to vote or who else might be scum. Your hemhawing about the nature of Monkey's role still fits with you being scum, you know her alignment. You know she'll flip town if she gets lunched, you're creating some false reasonable doubt that keeps you free of scrutiny when she flips.
Ok, so I've finished my reread of the day now.
So, in the world where Mao is Town, Monkey's role is either a lie (highly doubt) or else it is a Medium type of deal like she says and a dead player (assuming Turmoil) without any extra knowledge gave her that answer. It could also be that Nat is the one answering the questions for her, and that either he is just lying because it's a Bastard game or else someone did do some kind of Switchery nonsense on Mao. I would want to look more closely at players like Fran and Meatwad in that case because those are currently his strongest reads.
In the world where Mao is Scum, then the info Monkey received was correct, either by coincidence or because it was actual truthful information being given to her from the gamerunner. Mao's teammates would likely be blending in during this day phase and wanting to vote for him, seeing him as a lost cause and probably not worth sticking their necks out to defend too much against all of this shit. There is the chance that some major defense is being pulled right now from the Scum team, but they would look pretty obvious once Mao flipped and would theoretically not want to put natural suspicion on themselves like that.
I am honestly leaning more to the side that Mao is just Town here and that some weird shit is going on, but I also don't doubt for a second that Mao would be able to talk himself out of this situation as Scum. His claim is less believable than the others we've seen so far in my opinion, but there is also the fact that Scum have been given fake roles to claim, and I kind of doubt that role would be given out as a fake one to claim, though I could see Hated being one, but probably not that first one that he claimed, so that either came from his butt or it was a real claim as far as I can tell.
That's about where I'm at on the Mao business right now. I can see both worlds, though seeing the flip itself would help to clear a lot of things up and figure out which path I want to pursue for sure, because without hard evidence it is all just guesswork for those of us who can't see Mao's role PM.
So, in the world where Mao is Town, Monkey's role is either a lie (highly doubt) or else it is a Medium type of deal like she says and a dead player (assuming Turmoil) without any extra knowledge gave her that answer. It could also be that Nat is the one answering the questions for her, and that either he is just lying because it's a Bastard game or else someone did do some kind of Switchery nonsense on Mao. I would want to look more closely at players like Fran and Meatwad in that case because those are currently his strongest reads.
In the world where Mao is Scum, then the info Monkey received was correct, either by coincidence or because it was actual truthful information being given to her from the gamerunner. Mao's teammates would likely be blending in during this day phase and wanting to vote for him, seeing him as a lost cause and probably not worth sticking their necks out to defend too much against all of this shit. There is the chance that some major defense is being pulled right now from the Scum team, but they would look pretty obvious once Mao flipped and would theoretically not want to put natural suspicion on themselves like that.
I am honestly leaning more to the side that Mao is just Town here and that some weird shit is going on, but I also don't doubt for a second that Mao would be able to talk himself out of this situation as Scum. His claim is less believable than the others we've seen so far in my opinion, but there is also the fact that Scum have been given fake roles to claim, and I kind of doubt that role would be given out as a fake one to claim, though I could see Hated being one, but probably not that first one that he claimed, so that either came from his butt or it was a real claim as far as I can tell.
That's about where I'm at on the Mao business right now. I can see both worlds, though seeing the flip itself would help to clear a lot of things up and figure out which path I want to pursue for sure, because without hard evidence it is all just guesswork for those of us who can't see Mao's role PM.
In a similar situation, I counter claimed the cop with a cop claim of my own, and got the cop lunched even with him bread crumbing his role.
It was awesome. We won that game.
So I'm just catching up with some stuff. I noticed that Maolfunction had a role, and then their role was completely altered to their new Hated role.
I believe it.
I believe it.
Where are you at on all of this right now? If you couldn't vote for Mao today, where do you think you would vote? You've had Scum feelings on Gorlak for most of the game it seems, do you still think he could be Scum here? Are there any other players that stick out to you?
Just got home after a long, long, long afternoon and night. Going to try and catch up and cough up a word or two before bed.
Just got caught up. Like I said yesterday there I don't think we can afford to not lynch Mao today. Monkey's roleclaim is so obtuse though that if Mao flips town I don't even know what to read from that.
Fran
RE: My strong players take. It's simple, for the most part D1 ends with folks on the block for weak reasons, just like how our D1 ended. I'm just saying that if we had 2 or more players in that position I'd rather not vote for the more experienced town player as they could be more useful later. This has nothing to do with whether they're scum or not, I'm just playing the odds. Of course if someone was really scummy I'd have no problem lunching them even if they're a strong town player.
RE: Fat4All. I didn't like them D1, I don't like them now. They haven't done much IMO (yeah I know that's a bit rich whatever) and really only engage in mechanics/fluff for the most part.
Anyway my strongest town reads are Gorlak, Kits and .........> Fanto. Gorlak has done a fair bit of game solving, Kits seemed to be reminiscent of town Kits when she claimed and I feel alright about Fanto as well, just not as much as the other 2
Fran
RE: My strong players take. It's simple, for the most part D1 ends with folks on the block for weak reasons, just like how our D1 ended. I'm just saying that if we had 2 or more players in that position I'd rather not vote for the more experienced town player as they could be more useful later. This has nothing to do with whether they're scum or not, I'm just playing the odds. Of course if someone was really scummy I'd have no problem lunching them even if they're a strong town player.
RE: Fat4All. I didn't like them D1, I don't like them now. They haven't done much IMO (yeah I know that's a bit rich whatever) and really only engage in mechanics/fluff for the most part.
Anyway my strongest town reads are Gorlak, Kits and .........> Fanto. Gorlak has done a fair bit of game solving, Kits seemed to be reminiscent of town Kits when she claimed and I feel alright about Fanto as well, just not as much as the other 2
UNVOTE
I dunno. I caught up, then re-read page 1 to 11, and am going to go pass out. I'm just going to re-cap some of my previous thoughts....Fran was suspicious to me purely because of EoD1. One particular post was:
As for Maol, I genuinely can't tell anymore whether I want to vote him because I think he is scum or if it's because I know I'm going to be pissed at myself if we let him go until Day 4 and he winds up being scum. Looking back at D1 suspicions on Maol as I read through the pages, and I get a sense some of the leans came from people voting (what they considered) bad play, and it sort-of sprouted out of that post Maol made about dropping a random vote. And it just kind of...carried on, and evolved into bickering and sniping at one another. If there is more to Maol suspicion D1, someone me with the deets, because it looks like a mountain was slowly made out of a molehill. I just can't help but read most of Maol's posts EoD, and today even, as townie. So...I'm taking Maol off my list for now as well.
I have to find someone new....
I dunno. I caught up, then re-read page 1 to 11, and am going to go pass out. I'm just going to re-cap some of my previous thoughts....Fran was suspicious to me purely because of EoD1. One particular post was:
I called this post a stretch and defensive, and Fran responded:
Going back and re-reading EoD with this lens, I can follow Fran's logic. And I think I buy into it, for now. So...let's bump Fran off my lean scum list for now.
As for Maol, I genuinely can't tell anymore whether I want to vote him because I think he is scum or if it's because I know I'm going to be pissed at myself if we let him go until Day 4 and he winds up being scum. Looking back at D1 suspicions on Maol as I read through the pages, and I get a sense some of the leans came from people voting (what they considered) bad play, and it sort-of sprouted out of that post Maol made about dropping a random vote. And it just kind of...carried on, and evolved into bickering and sniping at one another. If there is more to Maol suspicion D1, someone me with the deets, because it looks like a mountain was slowly made out of a molehill. I just can't help but read most of Maol's posts EoD, and today even, as townie. So...I'm taking Maol off my list for now as well.
I have to find someone new....
Welp, since you're here. I feel like bolded is contradictory and not really a good look. If not because of Monkey's claim, why would we need to lynch Maol today? Not saying that there aren't enough reasons to want to vote there, but your phrasing means more than that and it caught my attention.
I'm left with the belief that if Maol flips town, it tells us nothing about Monkey. IF Monkey is scum, her power lets her distance herself from the check real easy and play innocent.
Mao is most likely scum, it's almost always the best play to make when you're redchecked. His weird roleclaims later, and if he's actually hated, which means if he dies earlier its in towns favour (in-fact if a scummie has the hated modifier it's best if he gets bussed earlier, which is possibly whats happening here as well).
As for what I said about Monkey in case Maol flips town, I think it's pretty understandable. It's set up in such a way that you can't say she faked it, maybe Nat lied or maybe there's scum in there or she was just speaking to Turmoil who can't know either way. It's a clusterfuck, but it doesn't change the fact that the best way to get the most info is a Mao lunch
Like what I said in my post above I agree, but Monkey's still going to be in hot water if Mao flips town, and I would genuinely be at a loss then on what actually transpired. Hopefully Mao flips scum, and even if he doesn't the flip gives us enough info to piece more of the game together so that we can figure out what the hell's happening
Oh and I forgot to address this but I don't remember Fat4All in that game at all, but I did effectively get NK on N1
At this time my scum read of Maol isn't really based on Monkeys red check and more on his role claim. As far as I can tell with the current information Monkey just receives the opinion of the dead players as answer to her question and apparently Turmoil thinks Maol is scum. But his opinion is as valid as any read in this thread so I wouldn't take it as gospel.
What really makes me suspicious about Maol is his claim and how he claimed. It reads like he claimed a role, then realized it wouldn't fly and tried to rectify it into something believable.
At first he said he was targeted by a player that made him hated. Then he said he was a doomed soldier which seems kind of an unfun role to have. When people expressed doubt about the role he corrected that he actually lost his original role and is now only hated, which I find even more questionable.
Maolfunction are you sure it was a player that made you hated or is it just a quirk of your role?
What really makes me suspicious about Maol is his claim and how he claimed. It reads like he claimed a role, then realized it wouldn't fly and tried to rectify it into something believable.
At first he said he was targeted by a player that made him hated. Then he said he was a doomed soldier which seems kind of an unfun role to have. When people expressed doubt about the role he corrected that he actually lost his original role and is now only hated, which I find even more questionable.
Maolfunction are you sure it was a player that made you hated or is it just a quirk of your role?
Mao apparently doesn't have that role anymore, he's just hated
Gorlak and Fran seem weird and aggressive to me, in a way that sets them apart from most other players in this game so far. I'd be down for a vote on either.