-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Death Stranding Mafia |OT| Bridge the Divides in Society (Via Murder)
- Thread starter Natiko
- Start date
Maolfunction I'm wondering why you are ignoring developments before your wagon picked up.
Do you think Fran and monkey are w/w here?
Do you think Fran and monkey are w/w here?
This is also an issue I have with Monkey's play. It's controlling behavior. It's impossible to not talk about this now, it's gonna take up a good chunk of the day talking about this which means town has less time to talk about other things.
That's extremely good for scum. She didn't wait to see how I opened the day, didn't see if I did something that would confirm her red check by pairing it with scum behavior. She instead steers the entire course of the day right off the bat and then ends it with a caveat that we shouldn't rush into a turbo. We should devote even more time talking about it. When I flip town, what does town get from it other than Monkey doesn't look good? She set up safety nets to explain her behavior, there's players in the game who are hesitant to take any action with her due to meta. There's a pretty reasonable bet that she won't be lunched after I flip. Town was just hampered severely.
I haven't read them. I'm not ignoring it, I just don't know what those developments are. Is there a particular post number I should read from?
Dr. Monkey I think I need to hear more about why you chose Mao. You fear to not be ever useful again... in a 15 person game, after you claim to have a red check. How much more useful do you expect to be?
There was reasoning attached though, to spice things up at EoD, that vote moved you into contention, and others either joined or avoided it, which is something we can consider now today knowing that Turm was Town. I don't like keeping my vote alone at EoD and no one was interested in joining me for a Kalor vote.
Also, read back on some of my posts from before that vote, I'm still on mobile so not going to quote them, but in the limited time I had while at work I said I did not like some of your posts with Monkey and was considering you for a vote and taking back my earlier opinion of not wanting to vote you on D1.
---
About to head home now in a few minutes, but I do have some errands to run and supper to eat, so dont expect me around in full until later this evening.
Also, it took me about 9 minutes to type this post on my phone because of all the typos I make and my phone randomly freaking out and spitting out a bunch of random letters that I didn't type, blah.
My thoughts on Monkey right now, is that opening the second day immediately with a red check and no full role claim is an incredibly bold move. It's a gambit that could easily backfire and if I were scum, not something I would attempt. So I'm inclined to give Monkey the benefit of the doubt for the time being that she's being truthful. That leaves Mao who wasn't looking to good at the end of the day yesterday jumping on the Fran wagon.
Mao what exactly has you convinced that Fran is scum?
Mao what exactly has you convinced that Fran is scum?
Alright Gorlak I read pre my wagon properly. I see what you're talking about, I think. Do you think Fran initially bussed Meatwad, then switched to me once EoD came about?
And do you thin Monkey stepped in to protect Meatwad by convincing people like VA to not vote Meatwad? Is that the tangible link you're drawing from Fran and Dr Monkey and Meatwad?
It's not completely out of the realm of possibility. My hang up is not understanding why Monkey would expose herself so much by red checking me, something that will be disproven when I flip. It's such a risky ploy, that it's difficult for me to jump on without any other confirmations.
And do you thin Monkey stepped in to protect Meatwad by convincing people like VA to not vote Meatwad? Is that the tangible link you're drawing from Fran and Dr Monkey and Meatwad?
It's not completely out of the realm of possibility. My hang up is not understanding why Monkey would expose herself so much by red checking me, something that will be disproven when I flip. It's such a risky ploy, that it's difficult for me to jump on without any other confirmations.
So to clear my head a bit, here is where I was at after turmoil's flip:
Monkey is defo scum. In this world Meatwad is more likely to be hear partner, monkey pushed turmoil to 5, when Meatwad was brought up. Third member is open. Maybe Fantomas: equalising Mao with Meatwad and enabling the wagon with by his standards meager reasoning. These two posts here: were everything you said on that matter. This is very un-Fantomas. Would you mind explaining your thought on that today?
If Monkey somehow doesn't turn out to be scum, that would open up a world in which Fran is likely scum. I don't see Monkey and Fran on the same team at this point.
Furthermore I was convinced that turmoil, mao and me shared the same townish feeling and thus tried to change to lynch together.
Well, that opening and the check blur the lines here though.
Monkey is defo scum. In this world Meatwad is more likely to be hear partner, monkey pushed turmoil to 5, when Meatwad was brought up. Third member is open. Maybe Fantomas: equalising Mao with Meatwad and enabling the wagon with by his standards meager reasoning. These two posts here: were everything you said on that matter. This is very un-Fantomas. Would you mind explaining your thought on that today?
If Monkey somehow doesn't turn out to be scum, that would open up a world in which Fran is likely scum. I don't see Monkey and Fran on the same team at this point.
Furthermore I was convinced that turmoil, mao and me shared the same townish feeling and thus tried to change to lynch together.
Well, that opening and the check blur the lines here though.
I was already scum reading Maol so I will believe this claim.
Why?
Except that he tried to do a self preservation vote trying to start a train on me.
Blarg role said Paranoid but he was not a pure paranoid modifier. It was something that I created for that game.
I voted Turmoil because I said that he was a scum lean for most of the day and because it was a tie. Malus and I voted at almost the same time. Just look at the posts time stamps.
Says the guy with a red check.
Why "us"?
Except it's not because if you flip town Monkey is in a really bad spot tomorrow. A 1 vs 1 exchange for scum is never a good deal for scum.
What does town get from any other flip?
OK, so one mafia targeted me, that's one player accounted for. Is there a scum role out there that would alter Monkey's check on me if another player targeted her? How lucky for scum that that role hit a player with investigative capabilities. And I believe you said you were targeted so that's a third mafian with a power? If a mafian can control the results of another player, that sounds pretty powerful. I'm starting to believe there's only 3 mafians in this game if that's all true.
And as I just said, yeah, it's hard for me to wrap my head around both Fran and Monkey being scum since it's all so unnecessarily risky if they are. If Monkey is scum tho, Meatwad's most likely scum, I agree with that completely.
Back at home now, but only for a moment before I head out the door again, but see above when I explained the vote to Mao, and I will also gladly explain more in full, with quotes, what my thoughts were at the time in a bit after I've run errands and eaten some food.
I agree it was very "un-Fantomas" just in that I usually have so much more to say at that time of a phase approaching EoD, but I just can't do that on my phone at work, even when I'm on break, it takes me a while to type and I'm not going to go grab quotes and try to put together big posts like I normally do when I am in that situation.
That's an interesting role from KetKat. Mere targeting alone doesn't necessitate useful information, especially in a bastard game, so I'm kind of wondering about the balance here. For game design, that sort of role has to be a counter to something. It has to provide some kind of information.
Back and catching up. Before I start responding to individual posts I will say I don't sit on red checks. Some people do and try to tease out reactions. I don't. I had a pretyped post in pineapple pizza mafia, too. I'd rather just put the information out there.
So, now that I'm here I can go ahead and answer you Maolfunction and Gorlak a bit more in detail to explain my vote on Mao.
This was what Mao said yesterday towards EoD, bolded and underlined the relevant part but presented in full for the sake of context.
Monkey put it rather bluntly here:
This is what I was referring to in this post which I made while I was on my lunch break and catching up:
Then, after thinking some more while having lunch, and looking at the vote tool, I decided I was going to vote for Mao over Turmoil, mainly because Turm had plenty of votes and I would have preferred to see Mao as the main counter wagon by that point, so as I said, I spiced things up.
This was what Mao said yesterday towards EoD, bolded and underlined the relevant part but presented in full for the sake of context.
This, to me when I first read it, was Mao saying that he has lines to pursue on myself, Monkey, and Fran, but that he doesn't see wagons forming on them so he isn't going to go there. This would mean to me that Mao would be Scum reading us, or at least expressing that he has thoughts there he wants to explore but considering he's talking about wagons and lunch viability, I took it to mean that he wanted to vote there, but others wouldn't, so he wasn't going to.
Monkey put it rather bluntly here:
Mao responds like this:
Yeesh, that's pretty defensive, and definitely trying to toss some implied suspicion at Monkey for like, nothing really?
This is what I was referring to in this post which I made while I was on my lunch break and catching up:
I read it the same way, and then he just kind of makes it like it's this thing that Monkey is trying to make him seem bad, probably because she's Scum! Like, ok, so if I had been around and able to quote you immediately, I would have probably asked the same thing.
Then, after thinking some more while having lunch, and looking at the vote tool, I decided I was going to vote for Mao over Turmoil, mainly because Turm had plenty of votes and I would have preferred to see Mao as the main counter wagon by that point, so as I said, I spiced things up.
Hey everyone. I'm caught up but on mobile until a bit later.
Wasn't really around for EoD, but not sure if I could change the outcome of the lynch - I wouldn't have voted for Fran during that swing and probably would move over to turmoil to confirm the lynch after being left alone on the Meatwad wagon.
Ketkat was low key town read across the board and few actual interactions for clues, so I'm not surprised by the NK. RIP Ket.
I'll go over Monkey x Maol posts carefully when I get in front of a computer, but I think we should follow Monkey's red check regardless of the caveats or the pre-typed post.
Wasn't really around for EoD, but not sure if I could change the outcome of the lynch - I wouldn't have voted for Fran during that swing and probably would move over to turmoil to confirm the lynch after being left alone on the Meatwad wagon.
Ketkat was low key town read across the board and few actual interactions for clues, so I'm not surprised by the NK. RIP Ket.
I'll go over Monkey x Maol posts carefully when I get in front of a computer, but I think we should follow Monkey's red check regardless of the caveats or the pre-typed post.
It is both limited and unusual - very not a traditional cop. It's a take I've never seen before, which again, is why I was reticent to speculate on scum powers on d1. I also had no idea how it would play out. But to answer this and both Gorlak's question about future usefulness, because of the way my power is limited, a full reveal could very well impact flow of the game and I'm not willing to do that. I dunno what else to say about it there. You'll see why I did it this way when I flip and it no longer matters, but all I can do is play the best I can with what I have.
But also because this is not a traditional check and the game is bastard I set it up with caveats. Gorlak and Maol are convinced I'm scum and won't see it any other way but it's not a "safety net." There's no safety net; if I'm wrong, I die. No one's gonna believe me until I flip. And I think you (fatdog) and kits raise a good point in the later post about Ket's role. A self-watcher that gets numbers... I didn't think about it when I saw the flip, just noted that it seemed more traditional than turmoil by far (and my own) but I think you have a point that there's probably just disruptive roles.
If Maol is telling the truth and he got a modifier added, that's disruptive. If my check is straight up wrong, that could be a modifier on me or it could be a switch, or it could just be a hidden part of my role; either way, that's also disruptive. But Ket's flip does indicate there are multiple overlapping powers that could probably target without killing. I don't think we have much more to go on than that though. Oh, I guess Gorlak has something to add to it, so there's another piece.
After everyone checks in we may have some more pieces that we can use to start figuring out how connections got drawn but I'm really uncertain about how to proceed with Maol's claim about the modifier and my check, but I'll address that in my responses to Gorlak, I think. Except I guess to add: in a world in which Maol could be telling the truth, is a switch/redirect the same power or was he targeted multiple times? Or is it more likely there's a modifier on me that I don't know about? We'd be looking at 2-3 people targeting Maol and that seems like a lot, especially with a kill on Ket and something with Gorlak at the least. I don't mean that's too many roles, just that ~3 on Maol alone seems like a lot.
I guess there could have been a target on me to fuck up my results and that might be more likely than a modifier on me. I kinda wanna draw a chart to see possible permutations.
so, this is a weird spot to be in
if Dr. Monkey and Maol are both town then scum got really lucky OR scum also has some misdirection abilities AND they got really lucky
considering all the possible misdirections, possible false night reads, or straight up bastard things able to happen i really wish Day 2 coulda started without claims so early
if Dr. Monkey or Maol is scum then this becomes less complicated and less likely that scum just shot the moon
i highly highly doubt both are scum, that'd be bonkers bananapants
if Dr. Monkey and Maol are both town then scum got really lucky OR scum also has some misdirection abilities AND they got really lucky
considering all the possible misdirections, possible false night reads, or straight up bastard things able to happen i really wish Day 2 coulda started without claims so early
if Dr. Monkey or Maol is scum then this becomes less complicated and less likely that scum just shot the moon
i highly highly doubt both are scum, that'd be bonkers bananapants
in regard to this point, it becomes less complicated if one of them are scum because that just means one is lying
And now that I have the time to expand on this some more and not much else is going on, I will!
Kalor's vote stuck out to me as being a pretty sneaky one on Turmoil:
I can't tell for sure though because trying to get a read on Kalor's poker face is basically a meme in this community now. Congrats Kalor, welcome to the meme club!
-----
Kopite's vote also stuck out to me as being a pretty safe vote that didn't require him to take a stance on Turmoil or anyone else up for the vote at the time. The only vote on Fat was Ket's joke vote at the time. His reasoning given for it below:
-----
Then we have Kits, who put down a very early vote on Gorlak and specifically said she was fine with keeping it there, but she also gave Turmoil a shoutout.
I'm also quoting this post because "butt'o'clock" made me laugh then and made me laugh again just now when reading back lol.
-----
For the others, I will try to be a bit more simplified just to keep this post from being too huge!
Fran and Monkey are the "paranoia tells me they can't both be Town, but they also can't both be Scum" suspicions.
I wasn't a fan of Fando's vote for Meatwad, and even though he clarified above that he was busy for EoD and would have moved elsewhere, it still looked like a suspicious vote to me.
And then, well, I've already talked about Mao now today, so I can refer you all to my previous post.
that would kind of assume they knew you had an ability that could target others
i doubt scum would gain that sort of insight before being able to use any abilities on their own
if your ability was misdirected, it would've had to of been out of luck, or a hunch (which is just luck you call ahead of time)
In my last bastard game I was a cop and I targeted someone who's ability was to come up as a red check despite not being scum if targeted by a cop. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but it's important to keep in mind anyway.
Eh, we've had some misdirect/redirect/disruption roles before that were town, or at least one-off abilities given to town, so I wouldn't immediately jump to it being a scum thing but I do agree this is the least likely scenario regardless.
Maol said he's not a miller and that's the kind of thing most folks would want to claim early anyway.
How do you know that he was targeted by Mafia? He hasn't claimed with what he was targeted.
You do too so same question to you. And I know you addressed this in posts I'm getting to below but do you really think if I'm scum I'm partnered with Meatwad and openly redirect in the way that's been proposed and then follow up with some wild gambit that will only get me killed d3 and cause any connections I have to be scrutinized further? In this scenario you've drawn up, I'm making wild, open risks that will almost certainly be caught, all to ostensibly save Meatwad. I mean, I like Meatie and all but that's unlikely at best. Really think that through for a second: do I, in this game, openly throw everything to protect Meatwad? Especially it's likely you would campaign for Meatwad to be killed right after me in this scenario?
I think this is getting back to what I was saying yesterday with us talking past each other. You're so into this theory that you're not stopping to think about it. I'm not saying I'm incapable of bad play or bad decisions but that's obnoxiously bad and if we're talking a 3-4 person scum team, in this world I just put 50-75% of it on the line to... what? What's the end game? The only way it would work is if it left someone else untouchable who could skate to endgame. Who is that?
So if you are absolutely set on me being scum, who's my team?
Going back to the rest:
No, I didn't. You're reading intent that was not there and I honestly don't know where you are getting it. You say I'm twisting words, making mountains out of molehills, etc., etc., but... turmoil was sketchy and I felt he was the best candidate on the table yesterday. It's regretful that he was town but I don't regret my vote. I laid out pretty clear cases for why I felt as I did, too, at every step. I'm not trying to hide my trains of thought here.
I did. There's a difference between you not liking my answer and me not answering (and you not liking my play choices doesn't automatically make me scum, either). Here's what I said:
Cagey in general = also in his EoD play
"my flip would be useful as town" can either be manipulative or straightforward and I didn't have enough to determine whether or not he was honest so this is why I chose him (and it's not like I'm the only one to question that line).
Let me expand, since you found the above lacking: his actions throughout the day, including his EoD play, led to my targeting him. You read his EoD as very townie. I do not. The whole "I won't self pres" when he was unlikely to be voted out doesn't sway me. Refusing to vote turmoil isn't conclusive; scum would have known turmoil's alignment. Jumping on a Fran train doesn't either. Fran was unlikely to be voted out yesterday. I do think it strengthens the notion that Fran/Maol are not w/w, but that's all. I don't find any of it conclusive. Hence the investigation.
Since I think you're most likely town here, my guess is that since Maol seemed to be acting similarly to you, that means he's also town. I don't agree with that either, though. I find Maol much more cagey and less straightforward.
Answered above. As for the other, I think this is actually a really good example of the disconnect between us. It's another instance in which I've said two things and you've fixated on one rather than both. Yes, I would like to keep being useful, as I have an information role. I don't really know why I need to justify that. But the other thing I said, which you didn't bring into this post, is that the full reveal of my role (the weird twist on it) could impact the flow of the game in negative ways, which I want to avoid.
But it's the first stuff I put in this post that I would really like you to think about. I loudly and repeatedly express a dislike for gambits in mafia. The play you're accusing me of requires me to not only gambit but also to sacrifice half the mafia team in doing so for... I don't know. I don't think you know, either. But if you do, please tell me.
The thread is surprisingly uneasy considering we have a red check out on a "not really town read" player with Maol. I think things would've been better laid out if Monkey hadn't dropped the bomb with a pre-typed post right at day start, and I have several grievances over Monkey's play ( the claim's caveats, #510 with out loud pondering on Ketkat's more "traditional" role which read a bit too much to me or #517 where she "stands by her red check" while unvoting just because Maol rebutted her check with the most simple "you're lying" ever), but the Gorlak x Monkey back-and-forth feels more and more like a town x town discussion, especially with Maol settling in the back whole adding some fire to it.
I think Maol is the only one considering that Monkey wouldn't be lynched if he flipped town due to meta and her "safety nets", but I strongly disagree. I think even another red check from another player wouldn't be enough to delay her lynch if that happened.
I think Maol is the only one considering that Monkey wouldn't be lynched if he flipped town due to meta and her "safety nets", but I strongly disagree. I think even another red check from another player wouldn't be enough to delay her lynch if that happened.
I am here for the next like two hours or so before I go to bed and am happy to discuss anything with anyone btw.
Doesn't have to be about this red check business, anything else. I gave some thoughts above on other players, I can maybe try to get a full read list started here too I guess, but I am looking for interactions too if anyone is here. :)
Doesn't have to be about this red check business, anything else. I gave some thoughts above on other players, I can maybe try to get a full read list started here too I guess, but I am looking for interactions too if anyone is here. :)
Actually, Fandorin, I unvoted because he said he gained the Hated modifier and while I don't know if that's true, I didn't want to spearhead a vote pileup since majority is pretty low anyway, and the introduction of an applied modifier does mean shenanigans of at least one sort in the thread. Unless he's lying about both, which is possible here.
with or without the Hatred modifier being the truth or a lie, i don't really see any other outcome of today other than a Maol lynch
the claim of Dr.'s role could've been misdirected or whathaveyou, but there's just as likely the chance it wasn't touched at all
the claim of Dr.'s role could've been misdirected or whathaveyou, but there's just as likely the chance it wasn't touched at all
Are those suspicious voters in any particular order? I agree on Kalor's vote which felt very safe and off note coming from the previous disconnected posts from him, but I'm fine with Kopite and Kitsu's votes.
And also, can you be more specific on what you didn't like on my vote? I know you're overall suspicious of me already, but I can't do much with "wasn't a fan". It is the fact I didn't move it or the vote itself?
Yeah, as much as I don't think Monkey would do this as Scum, if Mao were to flip as Town, it would happen. Anytime I've seen a red check turn up false around here, the person who gave it to the room got lunched the next day. Maybe Monkey could buy herself an extra day, but she would be gone eventually without a doubt.
Yes! I'm still getting used to it, but it was pretty similar to Civ 5 right away, and I really like a lot of the new additions and how some things have been switched up.
I have a couple of weird feelings about some of the posts today so I'm interested in what you think about responses and reactions.
Fran already questioned this, but I'll go further: why are you supposing that the "hated modifier" you got and whatever hit Gorlak are scum powers?
Fanto is pretty liberal and free with votes, and regularly vocalizes it. With other people, I might be a lil' suspicious of the vote. Not so much with Fanto.
If it matters, I'll just re-state that I had 0 read on Meatwad and that my vote shouldn't be read into. Monkey, Fanto, and Gorlak all then came out one way or the other against a Meatwad lunch.
No particular order, other than where their name was on the vote tool lol.
I wasn't a fan of any Meatwad voters honestly, I thought his contributions felt a lot better as we got closer to EoD, which was when your vote came in on him. You also stated that you wanted to keep it there here about an hour before EoD:
It was just not aligned with how I was viewing things, so it was naturally suspicious to me.
If only we could have an easy way to prove that.....
And he could be hated and still be scum. It wouldn't be the first time in this community I think.
and monkey makes three
There have been a few weird assumptions and leaps so far today. I wanna see what Fanto says and then when I'm done with this interview prep I'll probably put up a list of questions/observations.
Mao lynch seems most likely, but I don't think it's wise to rush into it
Gorlak and Mao had a strange connection early on that I can't quite put into words.
Like, Gorlak used the phrase "safety net" and then Mao kept hanging on to that. Then after seemingly being pretty aligned at the start, Gorlak starts questioning Mao to get his thoughts on things. They also then both jumped on me for my vote on Mao yesterday. Then Gorlak also claiming to have been targeted and mentioning knowing who it was apparently and "giving them a chance to claim" which is like, are we just all ignoring that line?
Kits' only contributions being mechanics speculations so far is also naturally eyebrow raising to me.
That's all off the top of my head at least.
Oh, and also I had to read this post like 5 times and I'm still not sure how Mao is so certain about all of these night actions and stuff? Like, why are all of these Scum powers??
No, we are waiting for him to explain that. And how he knows that when we already have some kind of self watcher flipped.
Absolutely true. So here's where I am on it (and then I gotta step away for a bit):
If scum Maol
I check Maol - result is not town
Theoretically someone else also applies hated modifier - this person would be town also since scum wouldn't do that to a scummate
(or Maol is lying to deflect/was already hated)
If town Maol (in which case, probably telling the truth)
I check Maol (town power 1)
Someone applies the hated modifier (could be any alignment)
Someone applies a switch or redirect or something (more likely scum but indeterminate)
=three people targeting Maol and that seems like a lot
OR the switch/redirect/whatever also applies a hated mod - but that seems OP
=two people targeting Maol
OR there's shenanigans with my role (which IS possible here)
but that still requires a second person targeting Maol
So in any scenario with town Maol there's at least two people on him and it wasn't Ket, who didn't seem to have the best feelings about him, so at least one other person targeting him for reasons unknown.
If scum Maol, there may or may not be a second target on him.
We also know:
Ket was killed
Gorlak claimed to have been visited
And if we assume some sort of protective or similar role, there's another thing happening. Lot of powers flying around, and we know at least one was self-targeting so potentially more there.
To my eye, the most likely scenario is scum Maol but I'm not willing to throw down the gauntlet on a check in a bastard game, even when it's my check.
Yeah, and again I absolutely want someone to explain why I would so obviously bodyblock Meatwad in a way that would get me and then him killed because that's all that comes from this scenario.
Back in a little.