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Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,300
To start off, this is not a thread about "What Death Stranding can teach Breath of the Wild" reactionary thread, so if that's what the title makes you think, you're wrong. This is a thread about something that, despite how vastly different these games are, both do extraordinarily well and I hope they set trends in this area.

To start off, Open World games have had a problem with their worlds not feeling interactive enough, or mainly serving as window dressing for immersion as you go to the next waypoint. Or some ultimately accounting for arenas where you fight enemies. Horizon: Zero Dawn was like this for me, which is why I dropped the game without completing it. The environments didn't entice me to explore or provide obstacles to me themselves. They just served as big areas to fight enemies. Even Kojima's previous game, Metal Gear Solid V often fell victim to this. While once you got to a camp, the possibilities and depth of gameplay was off the charts, the test of the world is just dead with collectibles to scoop up on your ride to the next camp.

However, Death Stranding and Breath of the Wild both feel extremely deliberate in going all in to make their vast worlds themselves an integral part of their gameplay. Every aspect of their worlds seems to be placed exactly where it is to entice curiosity or provide different approaches to gameplay. However, they do this in very different ways

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Breath of the Wild is all about enticing exploration and giving the player freedom to make their own adventures. Different paths were made to allow for different journeys and experiences for everyone.

Aonuma explained at the GDC in 2017 that the team paid extra care to this aspect of the game, they'd have tons of people play it, mark down areas that they didn't go, and then revise the map in order to put more points of interest in the less visited areas. Using a system of "triangles" that could either be travelled around or climbed on top of in order to see what's behind there.

add to this the plentifully discussed freedom that Link is granted with the game's physics system, which allows for interaction with the environment on a much higher scale than most open world games. Often times, this is used to add a puzzle element to traverse the game's world. Cutting down trees to make a bridge, using cryonis to climb up waterfalls, making an updraft by shooting grass with a flame arrow etc.
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Death Stranding, on the other hand, finds it's entire meat in the journey. Terrain is not designed to entice exploration, but goes fully in the direction of "everything is a hazard that you need to overcome." Every bit of terrain has an impact on how you go about planning your routes.

Do you take a route across a deep river where you need to bring or find metals to build a bridge, do you climb up a steep slope and bring tons of ladders and find the right spots to place them? Do you have a big, flat field that you could walk on foot but it would take so long that you'd risk damaging cargo and bring a vehicle with some spare generators? Often times the game puts multiple different types of terrain in the path to the next destination, adding a whole new depth to the planning.

The tools the game is constantly giving you all have strengths and weaknesses to different types of terrain. Bridges will save your life in rivers but won't be too useful on mountains, climbing anchors won't be too useful if you're trying to get UP somewhere.

Death Stranding is unique in that it's not an open world game that aims to entice exploration at all. Every aspect of the world is placed where it is in order to provide the player a challenge to overcome. Even the game's enemies such as BTs and MULEs I would say are more environmental hazards to overcome instead of supposed to be a dose of combat.

Overall though, despite their different approaches, I hope BOTW and Death Stranding set trends and that we get more open worlds that are true design marvels in the future. Worlds that give the player freedom, but feel intricately designed to make ensure that they are having memorable, eventful and challenging journeys as you immerse yourself in them. Both these games were made by teams who showed masterclass in level design when creating more linear games, and that knack for it transitioned into Open World. There are plenty of other teams that can do th
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,210
Greater Vancouver
The act of actually engaging with the world in both of these games is far and away my favorite shit.

Any other game would give you a waypoint and a breadcrumb trail, and you spend most of your time looking at the minimap. Seeing the horizon and planning ahead, working the problem of what is around you and seeing if there is a better way is so very much my shit. It's the kind of adventuring that feels like an adventure.

I may hate every shitty expository dump and clumsy metaphorical text (because god forbid subtext be a thing), but actually engaging with the world in Death Stranding reminds me so much of what I loved in BOTW.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Fundamentally changing the landscape in Death Stranding and helping build other people structures is one of the best things ever.

I never really 'got' Minecraft, as in I never really appreciated why people like it, but playing Death Stranding I get a feeling I understand the whole "building in a big wide world and working together" aspect.
 
OP
OP
Phendrift

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,300
Yup, I actually noted the similarities between both games a while ago:


I think Death Stranding is one of the few well designed open worlds.
Oh wow I even posted in that one lol, I guess i forgot about it!

shame it got closed, hopefully this one is long enough from release to make it. I think this is one of the most important aspects of these games
 

Pariah

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
It's interesting that MULEs pay more attention to your cargo than your own physical person, so when both sides of the equation collide, traditional rules are changed: you worry no longer about surviving, but making sure that your cargo survives the encounter.
 

MegaSackman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,733
Argentina
Yep, having played both I'd say they got the best designed worlds and interactions followed by Red Dead Redemption 2 and The Witcher 3.

I might even love Horizon Zero Dawn more than the four games mentioned but for different reasons.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,370
One thing I love about BOTW is just simply venturing out in a random direction and letting the landscape entice you along the way. I also tend to play the game with as close to zero fast-traveling as I can, so every time I leave a town or horse stable, I'm basically Frodo'ing my way around the world. I also tend to max out my stamina wheel prior to touching my hearts, so when I take off, I have to ensure that I have the correct food dishes cooked so that I can survive the elements and any tough enemy encounters along the way. There's such a deep, innate sense of adventure that BOTW taps into, and it's largely due to how they created the world the player navigates. My fondest memories of that game are just exploring the land and letting the world reveal its secrets and challenges to me along the way.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,995
I haven't played BotW yet, but that's a great description for Death Stranding, OP.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
One thing I love about BOTW is just simply venturing out in a random direction and letting the landscape entice you along the way. I also tend to play the game with as close to zero fast-traveling as I can, so every time I leave a town or horse stable, I'm basically Frodo'ing my way around the world. I also tend to max out my stamina wheel prior to touching my hearts, so when I take off, I have to ensure that I have the correct food dishes cooked so that I can survive the elements and any tough enemy encounters along the way. There's such a deep, innate sense of adventure that BOTW taps into, and it's largely due to how they created the world the player navigates. My fondest memories of that game are just exploring the land and letting the world reveal its secrets and challenges to me along the way.

I enforced a no-fast-travel rule in BotW shortly after completing all shrines (it started from wanting to ride all the way up to Ganon from whatever I was doing before that, and just stuck with me from there), and I immediately wished I had played that way from start to finish. It gives you a totally different perspective on the meticulousness of the terrain design and makes the game feel huge all over again. You start to plan around stables and where your horses can go. You change your objectives on the fly if you're headed somewhere with the glider and you miss. You really begin to appreciate the stitching.

It will be some time before I get to Death Stranding, but everything I've seen about its use of traversal as problem-solving is highly appealing.

People who like this sort of thing should look at Subnautica if they haven't already. It's like if you took the overarching key-and-zone progression structure of Metroid Prime but gated it with "engineering locks", so to speak, rather than walls or doors. The square footage is much more constricted than these other open worlds, but the verticality makes up for it and really pushes you to engage with the terrain as truly 3D.
 

Andalusia

Alt Account
Member
Sep 26, 2019
620
Death Stranding is probably the only open world that I actually have memorised in terms of locations. It's so cool how every area is essentially a "level" and not just a empty background like with most open world games. That "level" style design means you actually need to remember locations since you need to know what to bring to tackle them or which routes are quickest/safest etc....
 

Jangowuzhere

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,505
Yeah, I feel like BOTW and Death Stranding are actually pushing to what an actual "open world" game should be.

Most Open World games are actually the same as linear games. Sure, there's a vast landscape, but everything happens on specific spots of a map. The open world is borderline redundent in most games, and it mostly serves as busy work traversal going from location to location.
 

Sparks

Senior Games Artist
Verified
Dec 10, 2018
2,879
Los Angeles
I recently got my first vehicle, are those discouraged? I drove it to one of my missions and reached a point it was impossible to go forward with it, so I abandoned it and now its gone? Not sure how vehicles fit into this game...

Also it seems like you are not supposed to drive vehicles through BT Rain Territories. I got wrecked.

I'm still really enjoying it!
 

saiko

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,642
If you like BOTW traversal, you can at least appreciate what DS is going for. Traveling from point A to point B is not some binary task where you set a waypoint and then go there. Much of what you do is surveying the landscape and picking a route that best suits the equipment you have at hand. Add the social elements and you have a unique experience that very much ties into the whole theme of DS. You're meant to brave the environment by yourself at first but only when you connect the area can you see the benefits of interacting with others. It's a game where the gameplay systems come together in a meaningful way.
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,164
Paris, France
I haven't played that game so I didn't wanna give an opinion.

that said I haven't heard it praised that much for its level design, mainly for how beautiful it is. But I'm open to hearing if it actually does have what I'm talking about!

Well, considering your points and The One Who Knocks quote, it doesn't have the depths of the gameplay and it doesn't blend game and level design building its mechanics around.

But I found it to be the only 3AAA open world that pushes me to explore places, felt alive on its own and made me wanna interact with everything and everyone. Story was great but not driving me, the world was. But maybe more in an immersive or roleplay experience so... Kinda off topic I guess.

But to me BOTW, DS and RDR paved the way for the future of OW, gameplay and exploration. You got a world with rules, a range of gameplay and equipement and that's it, the world is yours with some challenging and rewarding exploration.


RDR2 is the antithesis of this...

See above
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
Death Stranding is probably the only open world that I actually have memorised in terms of locations. It's so cool how every area is essentially a "level" and not just a empty background like with most open world games. That "level" style design means you actually need to remember locations since you need to know what to bring to tackle them or which routes are quickest/safest etc....
This is the best thing about Death Stranding. My biggest fear was that the locations wouldn't feel considered, but each area really is its own level with a kind of untraditional level design. The jagged terrain where you have to spelunk to in order to get to Conan O'Brien, the massive region of grassland filled with Mules with mountains covering either side on the way to Lockne, the forest early in the game with bumpy moss covered hills, I could go on and on.
 

BakedTanooki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,723
Germany
Death Stranding is probably the only open world that I actually have memorised in terms of locations. It's so cool how every area is essentially a "level" and not just a empty background like with most open world games. That "level" style design means you actually need to remember locations since you need to know what to bring to tackle them or which routes are quickest/safest etc....

I thought exactly the same a few hours ago :)

It's so damn good. Especially the part with the regions being more like "levels"
Im very high right now, but i truly think that just walking through various regions alone in Death Stranding, is like playing a good designed japanese arcade game in itself :) There are so many exciting and fascinating aspects to the game.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
I think that's one of the best parts about Death Stranding in that it really does make you feel like playing with everyone online is connected and that we all are taking this journey together. Whether it be from seeing someone added some material to an auto-paver to help build a road or someone building a bridge over a deep river that would normally slow you down, everything has an affect on someone else. I usually hate open world games where I'm constantly having to slog to get to somewhere. In Death Stranding, it's an adventure every time I accept an order. Unfortunately, I did not get this same sense of joy of discovery for BotW, but DS is a special game truly.
 

streepmeryl

Member
Mar 4, 2018
82
Not flaming the game, as texture work was good by recent years standards. Enemies and their animations were very up to date. visual effects were very up to date as well.
However, DS is void of "comfy enjoyment".
it's just a game that couldn't flesh out a proper use of it's particular world. pretentious. a city the size of about 10-13% of the map size, being fully explore able (doors pick locked, blown up, unlocked), possibly traveling to a couple other cities the same size, would have made for a way better game. possibly sequels.
Not saying that i don't like DS, just saying that it could have been more by being less...

Zelda BOTW however is phenomenal for the open world aspect, and pretty much everything else
 
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Mary Celeste

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,193
I recently got my first vehicle, are those discouraged? I drove it to one of my missions and reached a point it was impossible to go forward with it, so I abandoned it and now its gone? Not sure how vehicles fit into this game...

Also it seems like you are not supposed to drive vehicles through BT Rain Territories. I got wrecked.

I'm still really enjoying it!
Vehicles are highly encouraged the further you get (at least thus far, I'm in Chapter 5) but sometimes you just won't be able to make it work. Nothing wrong with going on foot, it makes for a much more personal traversal experience imo.
 

Gots

Member
Feb 20, 2019
1,341
Canada
Yeah both are truly at the top of my list in terms of open world design. It's just so satisfying to get from Point A to Point B, no other open world game gives me this satisfaction.
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
I recently got my first vehicle, are those discouraged? I drove it to one of my missions and reached a point it was impossible to go forward with it, so I abandoned it and now its gone? Not sure how vehicles fit into this game...

Also it seems like you are not supposed to drive vehicles through BT Rain Territories. I got wrecked.

I'm still really enjoying it!
Honestly I wouldn't recommend vehicles unless you know for certain you're going to be driving on road or flat terrain. They're probably the low point of this game. They don't handle particularly well, and most of the territory in the game is not accommodating at all for them.
 
Oct 26, 2017
16,409
Mushroom Kingdom
I recently got my first vehicle, are those discouraged? I drove it to one of my missions and reached a point it was impossible to go forward with it, so I abandoned it and now its gone? Not sure how vehicles fit into this game...

Also it seems like you are not supposed to drive vehicles through BT Rain Territories. I got wrecked.

I'm still really enjoying it!

Definitely not discouraged.

With BOTW and DS new more efficient methods of traversal play their role in the design.

When you abandon a vehicle it will likely be put in another players world for them to use. I think it also still remains in your world for you to come back to.

You can drive through BT territory you just have to be extra careful. If you are on your bike, Your ordarek will still warn you when they are close. Might be good to clear a path for yourself and then drive through
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,210
Greater Vancouver
I recently got my first vehicle, are those discouraged? I drove it to one of my missions and reached a point it was impossible to go forward with it, so I abandoned it and now its gone? Not sure how vehicles fit into this game...

Also it seems like you are not supposed to drive vehicles through BT Rain Territories. I got wrecked.

I'm still really enjoying it!
Something like a truck can be super helpful, but is easily made moot if you take it over rough territory, or risk the battery dying. Built roads with a truck feels like a revelation.

Bikes, the battery thing can still be an issue, but if you're decent at the handling, you can maneuver and hop your way through some harsher terrain. I've made it through some BT areas just by being extremely slow, and then gunning it when I need to. You may get caught, but after you beat your first real BT fight, it just kinda becomes a thing you're prepared for.

It's certainly not discouraged, but be aware that it's a factor you'll have to be attentive to as well.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,927
Yeah I thought a lot about Breath of the Wild while playing Death Stranding. I was trying to picture what both games would be like if they shared some of their features. Ladders and ropes in BotW and the ability to climb any surface in Death Stranding. Would be interesting for sure.
 

MickZan

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,404
I recently got my first vehicle, are those discouraged? I drove it to one of my missions and reached a point it was impossible to go forward with it, so I abandoned it and now its gone? Not sure how vehicles fit into this game...

Also it seems like you are not supposed to drive vehicles through BT Rain Territories. I got wrecked.

I'm still really enjoying it!

In some areas they are, in some they are not. Make sure to make strand contracts with people so you can see more build items like bridges. They help a lot. Also later in the game you can add materials to start building roads and such over rough terrain. Basicly when you press into the unkown a vehicle is mostly useless. As soon as you connect it to the chiral network and start building roads they become a must to travel around.
 

MAX PAYMENT

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
4,246
I dont really understand the comparison. Breath of wild's traversal is a lot of fun and emphasizes freedom of choice, while death stranding's feels mike it's meant to be arduous.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,841
Death stranding is one of the first open world games that i really remember its world layout because of how much attention you need to pay for it, plotting your route etc. It becomes a really memorable open world by virtue of this. In other games i just mark the location on the map and ride a horse/car etc. With the minimap at my side telling me the direction and going forward, its really amazing how such a fairly minor change technically makes me grounded in the world i am in like i have been there for weeks in person while i have really played only for a few hours.
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,492
Indonesia
This is the best thing about Death Stranding. My biggest fear was that the locations wouldn't feel considered, but each area really is its own level with a kind of untraditional level design. The jagged terrain where you have to spelunk to in order to get to Conan O'Brien, the massive region of grassland filled with Mules with mountains covering either side on the way to Lockne, the forest early in the game with bumpy moss covered hills, I could go on and on.
The journey to spiritualist is some of my favorite memorable moment to me. I remember planning my route and when I reach the peak of a mountain and check the map thay I'm only halfway through.

It's not like the gameplay is complex or you risk dying like in a survival game, but the visual, sound, the whole presentation and the time spent during the journey make you feel really good when you reach the destination
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I'm glad these games show us that you can't just plump the player into a big map littered with content for no reason. A lot of EA/Ubisoft/Other games should learn from it and follow suit. Open World level design is brilliant and "Hand-craftee Bethesda maps" is a fluke.
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
Death Stranding is probably the only open world that I actually have memorised in terms of locations. It's so cool how every area is essentially a "level" and not just a empty background like with most open world games. That "level" style design means you actually need to remember locations since you need to know what to bring to tackle them or which routes are quickest/safest etc....
Wow, you're totally right, I'm trying to remember the open world games I've played and it's hard, part of it is because Death Stranding is still new for sure but there are so many memorable moments while you're traversing that I doubt I'd forget it.