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Deleted member 46489

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
1,979
faeria is, much like Artifact, a fantastic card game. And both where much cheaper to be competitive in than magic and hearthstone. But for some reason the players got hung up on entry fees and the fact that these where long, complex and non-mobile games meant the hearthstone casual players checked out right away.
I think Faeria had some fundamental problems. I LOVED the art and complexity of the game, but it suffers from a severe case of choice paralysis. In a typical turn in most card games, your main choice is which card to play. Some games have additional choices like whether to attack or defend, or perform other actions. In a typical faeria turn, these are your choices-
1. Which card to play
2. Where to place the unit spawned by the card (unless it's a spell).
3. Whether to place land tiles or gain one faeria or draw one card.
4. If choosing to place land tiles, whether to place two neutral tiles, or a mountain, forest, desert or lake tile. Oh, and where to place the tile(s).
4. Whether to move the units on your board, and if so, which units to move, and where to move them.
5. Whether to target the opponent's avatar with your units or target their units or defend your own avatar.
6. What order to do all the above in.

All these decisions interact with one another in complex ways, making you feel like you don't really know what you're doing. Both victories and losses become hard to analyze, as you're often unable to point to the specific mistake that caused you to lose (or plays that made you win). And maybe you didn't make any mistakes at all. Maybe your deck doesn't work. It's difficult to tell.

I remember playing faeria for many hours and then one day firing up the Gwent beta (during the days it was actually good). I was amazed by the strong cause-effect link in that game. Every turn, you just played one card. No mana. And so you'd always know exactly where you screwed up. The game had complexity without being obtuse. It just made sense, where Faeria hadn't.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
I never felt Faeria was obtuse. It's much like a game such as Twilight Struggle. When you first play it it might seem obtuse, but when you dig in you will realize that the complexity makes sense in conjunction with the rest of the design.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,419
The $20 entry fee prevents players from making F2P accounts, opening packs, and then selling them on the marketplace. It basically prevents inflation. I'm sure someone who understands economics better than me can explain better.


Prices are determined by users, but they're still generally a function of things that Valve controls. Something that I always emphasize with regards to drop rates (partly because I've worked extensively with loot boxes and similar mechanics) is that you should never assume simple drop rates (e.g. flat X% chance to get object Y). There's usually a lot of other stuff going on under the hood. This goes double when it's an "open" economy like the Steam marketplace where real money is involved, and none of that is exposed to the user.

Thanks for explaining
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,884
Deutschland
Faeria was legit great and i'm pretty sad the game is almost dead.
I'm sad About Artifact too tho.
And even Shardbound, but that was never really alive.

At least i have MTG:Arena left

Gonna check out Runeterra too whenever i can.

Imagine this very same announcement, but at the end it said 'The Dota RPG' instead of 'The Dota Card Game'. The reaction would be way different. A hack-n-slash rpg in the vein of Diablo with Dota 2 heroes would be incredible.

They actually already tested that Concept with Siltbreaker

 

Won

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,427
Still hurts. Only digital card game that really grabbed me.

The worst thing is that Valve ultimately confirmed everyones fears. They can't be trusted to run a service game in this day and age. They bailed imo too early and after almost a year since the last patch, we still don't know if, when, how it will come back.

And since I'm mostly fed up with how corporations run their stupid card games, I don't think I have another round of Valve hijinks in me.
 

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,533
It came out at an awkward time as Magic Arena was freshly into open beta and picking up steam, with the downside of also having no real transparency / road map for it's future.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,682
USA USA USA
Bought it, enjoyed it.
The matches were fun but a bit long and they were typically pretty sweaty.

Sorry to see it go.
i think thats what killed it honestly

everything was intense and took too much thought

you couldn't play much without actually being tired

whenever you see people playing hearthstone they're on autopilot except for a few decisions now and then, you can play all day

2 games of artifact were more exhausting than a single dota game, and that's already soul crushing

the pricing structure was unorthodox sure, but wasn't really an issue people (almost always people who had never touched it) just blew that out of proportion
 

Potterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,414
I dropped off after maybe 20 games. It turned out I didn't want such complex card game. I mean, I like complex strategy games but... three boards just felt off. And it wasn't fun in a long run.

I adore Legends of Runetera though. It's like simpler version of Artifact, but still has shit-ton of mechanics etc.

But hey, at least I managed to sell every card from Artifact and I got more money from it than I paid for the game :D
 

Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,536
I hope it makes a comeback at some point. I really liked it. Tore me away from Hearthstone. I needed that.
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,019
NYC
By the way, card game enthusiasts and whoever else, in march the closed beta for Legends of Runeterra starts, sign up for a key today!

It's an actually very good card game! And apparently the monetization was well received, but I wouldn't know cause beta has a lot unlocked.

rune.jpg

As much as I loved Artifact, I'm glad we ended up with a superior game in Runeterra.

People seem to be way more positive on it, too!
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,906
Germany
The game was dead as soon as they announced their business model. You also had to buy cards in Hex and that game didn't do that well either.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059


Gonna watch and enjoy this detailed breakdown but I feel like this is really all you need.

I'm still watching it right now, but I just want to point out something about this.

People were disappointed by this announcement, I was there in person and remember the disappointment everyone felt. However once the gameplay was revealed, there was more hype for it. At the next TI in 2018, they revealed at the start of the event the everyone that attended TI8 in person would get a free copy of the game and into the beta if they linked their Steam account to their badge. This was the reaction to that.

https://youtu.be/8MtA6D-IuGI (12:52 if it doesn't take you to the timestamp)

That's not to say that a lot of the game's other issues weren't valid, most of them were. The only reason I stopped playing was because there was quickly becoming no one to play with. I really enjoyed the game and wished it was successful. I don't think it's accurate to say the "awww" at the TI7 announcement "says it all" about the quality of the game. It is true that no one wanted (or knew they wanted) a Dota card game, but Artifact's issues were in it's execution. Saying that reaction "says it all" is like saying it just shouldn't have existed in the first place.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059
i think thats what killed it honestly

everything was intense and took too much thought

you couldn't play much without actually being tired

whenever you see people playing hearthstone they're on autopilot except for a few decisions now and then, you can play all day

2 games of artifact were more exhausting than a single dota game, and that's already soul crushing

the pricing structure was unorthodox sure, but wasn't really an issue people (almost always people who had never touched it) just blew that out of proportion
I think people's beef with the pricing model was that Valve intended the $20 buy-in to be like a "starter pack" of a physical CCG, but given that this was a game on Steam, most people didn't see it that way. If they didn't get Axe or Drow or other good cards the were pretty costly on market when Artifact cards actually had value on there. Another issue (that Valve did flip flop on) was the fact that they wanted to treat it like a physical CCG and not make balance changes to existing cards, and address balance issues with new cards. Heroes like Axe and Drow were pretty broken on release, so Valve did end up changing course on that.

After I understood the game more (as well as my opponents), my game times dropped dramatically to 5-10 minutes, as opposed to the 20+ minute games when I started playing. I think the 20+ minute games were an issue, but it was something that went away with time.
 

C.Mongler

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,881
Washington, DC
I hope the long haul comes to fruition someday. I really enjoyed what I played, but the player pool quickly devolved into people who were really experienced at this game and/or other card games, and as someone who just got into card games with Artifact, getting constantly crushed by people who were clearly several rungs higher than me on the ladder burned me out pretty quickly. I imagine that if they are working on the game still, it's probably a near complete rework of the game-play and business model while also expanding the card base dramatically, so it's not super surprising they haven't said anything for a while; it's just kind of a bummer after the surprising amount of transparency with Underlords, but I can also understand not wanting to openly promise anything with a title that ate shit right out of the gate.

I hope if they relaunch, they do it with the mobile app that was promised. That would have probably greatly increased my desire/ability to play the game regularly.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Remember when everyone was saying Artifact would kill Hearthstone and Magic Arena?

This is outright false.

Most people hated Artifact when it was announced and wondered why Valve would bother when Hearthstone exists.


When Artifact launched the people who initially brought into the game actually did like the system at first but no one thought this game was a replacement for Hearthstone and Magic because the game was focused so much on skill over RNG that it was more accurate to call it a table top strategy game instead of a card game.


Artifact not being a card game in a traditional sense while trying to pass itself off as one is the most overlooked flaw of this game and was a very significant reason why it struggled. RNG as used in other card games helps people enjoy the game without putting a ton of time into developing strategies and understanding mechanics.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,556
What Artifact was trying to do with allowing players to trade cards on the market seemed like it could work, but the market is confusing and it seems to me like people negatively associated the $20 they paid for the game with the value they were trading on the Steam market via the cards. So if you 'lost money' in those transactions somehow, it was like you were getting your $20 buy-in taken away. (It wasn't)
If you aren't somehow lucky playing the market, you will lose money doing those transaction, since Valve takes a cut at each transaction.
It very much meant that if you didn't want to spend even more money than the cost of the game but still wanted to try different deck, since the only way to get card was to buy booster or cards on the market, you would need to sell some of your cards to buy other, loosing money at each transaction.

I'm sure many people like me like to play card game very casually and *almost* never spend a dime on the game, and when we do it's certainly not upfront. Many of us also very much like playing a little everyday and being rewarded with new cards so we can try new deck.
All of that was things Artifact didn't aim for, and while I'm sure there is also other reason for it's death, it sure didn't help kickstart a success.

The only really good thing it did imho, was allowing you to play draft ( with no reward ) at no ingame currency cost. But since they made the mistake of not simply allowing people to play that mode in a separate F2P version of the game, many people like me ended up simply selling all their cards and only play Draft since we both wanted to recover the cost of the game and didn't intend to engage in constructed with no free mean to get more cards.
 
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BLASTEROID

Member
Oct 25, 2017
232
Artifact was a good game. I haven't played it in a long time, but I liked it. It was very intense though, and the matches were long, and almost always boiled down to "If I don't win on this turn, my opponent wins on the next turn".

That, and the RNG was just lazily implemented. It does make you react to it and it does radically change the course of a single match, so it's cool that it is impactful, but it's just so lazily slapped on top of the core gameplay mechanics in the game... very odd choice there.

As far as economy goes, I was always fine with it. Using MTG as an example, since there is already an established market place here, it seems fine to me that you have to buy packs, buy specific cards on the market place. I prefer to buy sell trade on the market place for specific cards over doing the loot treadmill of something like Hearthstone.

Anwyho, I hope it isn't dead forever. I think it would be a pretty cool game by now with a really lush meta... After they started doing the incremental balance changes, there was a pretty nice meta for only having a single set of cards currently released.
 

BLASTEROID

Member
Oct 25, 2017
232
It certainly wasn't everyone saying that.

There were a couple DOTA fans that were under that impression but the majority of people knew that the F2P card battle games would be far more popular.

There were a fair amount of Hearthstone, Gwent, and even physical MTG players (at least one MTG hall of famer that I can recollect) that were planning on professionally switching to Artifact. One of DOTA's most more prevalent content creator studios was also planning on switching to covering Artifact full time. Certainly not 'everyone' but this seemed like some promising hype to me.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
The game definitely had balance problems (that were exacerbated by the existence marketplace), but I think any analysis that points towards gameplay issues is fundamentally screwed. No progression, the stupidly short beta period, and focus on draft modes really came together to fuck it though, and I have no clue what Valve was thinking to release it in the state it was in. Dota 2 got two years worth of beta updates, and with Artifact they just dropped it on Steam with minimal changes after like three weeks. I didn't even realize I got a beta key until two days before launch.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,167
game was fun af, but being able to play completely f2p and not have it feel like a grind/that you are standing still in progress is pretty essential to me
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,906
Game has a really awesome gameplay loop, but the matches did tend to drag for too long. Also it felt like 75% of the game had those awesome, complex and deep mechanics but the other 25% were complete RNG which caused it to be a strange mix of hardcore-pro and super-casual.

Also the constant trolls didn't help the game either. For some reason people don't seem to understand that a buy-in fee of $20 is way less than going with a f2p game where you have to spend hundreds of dollars to get some decent deck. You would suspect that people understand basic math but naaah.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,086


While I've never played Artifact, I'll admit to being curious about how quickly it came apart. After watching the video, I'm kind of surprised that Richard Garfield seemed to never admit there were any problems with the core game. My assumption would be that no matter how bad the presentation was, if the core game was good, people would still play it.


Richard Garfield is one of the best designers ever. But he is basically wrong about almost everything else. He doesn't understand basic concepts of fun, or how cards "feel" to play. Great example is the randomness in Artifact. He is objectively right when he says that randomness is less of an issue in Artifact than Magic - the results from games show that. However, what he doesn't understand is that the randomness in Artifact *feels* much worse, and that's why people hated it.

GArfield needs a team of people around him to curb some of his instincts. When he's supported and challenged hes made some of the best games on the planet, but when left unchecked he produces games like Artifact or the star Wars CCG that Wizards produced that failed drastically.
 

NabiscoFelt

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 15, 2019
7,638
Also the constant trolls didn't help the game either. For some reason people don't seem to understand that a buy-in fee of $20 is way less than going with a f2p game where you have to spend hundreds of dollars to get some decent deck. You would suspect that people understand basic math but naaah.

I mean, you had the buy-in, and then you also had to pay for anything more than that. So you might still need to pay 100+ for a Meta deck, but in a matter that you can't circumvent by grinding.

And also, I'm fairly certain that the majority of people who play ftp card games don't spend any money at all, so for them, $20 is definitively more money than $0. You can't just appeal to a minority of whales and hardcore competitive players and expect to succeed.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,906
I mean, you had the buy-in, and then you also had to pay for anything more than that. So you might still need to pay 100+ for a Meta deck, but in a matter that you can't circumvent by grinding.

And also, I'm fairly certain that the majority of people who play ftp card games don't spend any money at all, so for them, $20 is definitively more money than $0. You can't just appeal to a minority of whales and hardcore competitive players and expect to succeed.
Artifact was always marketed as a competitive card game.
For competitive: you could spend $20 on Artifact - and buy all available cards for another $80 - or play competitive Hearthstone where you have to spend $5000.

The game was never designed to be the kind of casual experience for the masses (a decision which in the end killed the game).
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
I don't know if any other multiplayer game flopped so hard so fast from the initial playerbase. Artifact probably deserves more attention just for that achievement.

Those Garfield quotes about the players being wrong is telling how little he was thinking about making the game fun and accessable. Yes, it's technically true a competitive black deck is slightly cheaper relatively to hearthstone, but maybe consider what if players want to play a blue combo or a red smork deck but don't want to pay $100 to do so. And it's technically true that managing RNG is where the skill in card games actually comes from, but maybe consider how that RNG feels as a player in the moment it happens and not as a designer looking at aggregate ELO data.

Personally I hated market based pricing for individual cards the most. The best thing about Hearthstone's monetization is the best and worst legendary card costs the exact same amount. Sure, that sucks for the whales who want a complete collection, but for most everyone else it made getting over that first hump to your first and most wanted competitive deck so much easier.

So the least fun of the third tier decks was maybe cheaper than a competitive hearthstone deck, and the complete collection of cards was certainly cheaper than a hearthstone complete collection, but they're only cheap because no one wants them. That's literally what marketplace pricing is.

Underrated post. Not exactly related but Rocket League got rid of its lootboxes in favor of a system where every item has a clear price. Well, it took so much of the magic away ironically. While it's true that in theory you could have the rarest items at a fixed price that is likely lower than what you would have put in by spamming boxes, but the opposite spectrum is that you could get some real cool items by only opening a crate or two spending like 2 bucks, now you are 100% sure that the best items cost like 20 bucks instead. The first box my fiancé opened with a free key was an item that would normally cost like 10 bucks. It's an item she never would have wasted 10 keys on, but it was great to have it as a freebie. Locking the stuff behind one big purchase as opposed to a potentially higher price but divided in time has its perks, but it takes away the accessibility. It's the gambling syndrome: few people would use the slot machines if every single roll costed 80 bucks, but they happily throw 80 bucks for 80 chances as rolls go by.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
Still hurts. Only digital card game that really grabbed me.

The worst thing is that Valve ultimately confirmed everyones fears. They can't be trusted to run a service game in this day and age. They bailed imo too early and after almost a year since the last patch, we still don't know if, when, how it will come back.

And since I'm mostly fed up with how corporations run their stupid card games, I don't think I have another round of Valve hijinks in me.
But they can run a service game! Dota 2 and CSGO are both extremely popular and long-lived. Valve basically wrote the modern F2P monetization handbook. Modern loot boxes and battle passes are all Valve inventions. They know what they're doing, which is part of what makes Artifact so perplexing. Then again, Underlords is a joke ;)

That said, knowing when to abandon a game is also a big part of running a service. I think PC/console players aren't so used to that mentality (Epic still gets shit for Paragon after all) but it's part of that business reality.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
But they can run a service game! Dota 2 and CSGO are both extremely popular and long-lived. Valve basically wrote the modern F2P monetization handbook. Modern loot boxes and battle passes are all Valve inventions. They know what they're doing, which is part of what makes Artifact so perplexing. Then again, Underlords is a joke ;)

That said, knowing when to abandon a game is also a big part of running a service. I think PC/console players aren't so used to that mentality (Epic still gets shit for Paragon after all) but it's part of that business reality.
I really don't think we should give valve a pass for abandoning it when they did. It's a genre where regular updates is extremely important and they completely abandoned it after two months with the only update basically just adding stuff that should have been in the game at launch. You can't at all compare that to paragon which had 2 years of updates.

Sure, there's a risk that any game may only get a year or two worth of updates, but Artifact proves that Valve can't be trusted to even make an attempt at making current players happy as long as they already have their money. People should be aware that with Valve specifically your taking a risk that the game will never get any post release support.
 

BLASTEROID

Member
Oct 25, 2017
232
I really don't think we should give valve a pass for abandoning it when they did. It's a genre where regular updates is extremely important and they completely abandoned it after two months with the only update basically just adding stuff that should have been in the game at launch. You can't at all compare that to paragon which had 2 years of updates.

Sure, there's a risk that any game may only get a year or two worth of updates, but Artifact proves that Valve can't be trusted to even make an attempt at making current players happy as long as they already have their money. People should be aware that with Valve specifically your taking a risk that the game will never get any post release support.

I think the general feeling is that Artifact crashed and burned so hard that a steady flow of updates wasn't going to be enough to cut it.

If we ever see a 2.0 (I'm worried we won't), I am expecting to see some changes that mean the game is flat out played differently, that's a weird thing to implement while also trying to grow a meta and a competitive player base... unfortunately (IMO) some of those changes will also probably be to convert it over to the Hearthstone / MTG Arena monetization model. If they do go down that road, I wonder if there will be any sort of offering to people who bought into the cards on the first go round.

 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
I think the general feeling is that Artifact crashed and burned so hard that a steady flow of updates wasn't going to be enough to cut it.

If we ever see a 2.0 (I'm worried we won't), I am expecting to see some changes that mean the game is flat out played differently, that's a weird thing to implement while also trying to grow a meta and a competitive player base... unfortunately (IMO) some of those changes will also probably be to convert it over to the Hearthstone / MTG Arena monetization model. If they do go down that road, I wonder if there will be any sort of offering to people who bought into the cards on the first go round.

At this point why would anyone put money into an Artifact 2.0 knowing the very large chance there'd never even be an Artifact 2.1?
 
OP
OP

jdmc13

Member
Mar 14, 2019
2,893
Richard Garfield is one of the best designers ever. But he is basically wrong about almost everything else. He doesn't understand basic concepts of fun, or how cards "feel" to play. Great example is the randomness in Artifact. He is objectively right when he says that randomness is less of an issue in Artifact than Magic - the results from games show that. However, what he doesn't understand is that the randomness in Artifact *feels* much worse, and that's why people hated it.

GArfield needs a team of people around him to curb some of his instincts. When he's supported and challenged hes made some of the best games on the planet, but when left unchecked he produces games like Artifact or the star Wars CCG that Wizards produced that failed drastically.

Were there any specific people who kept him in check previously that Valve could bring on to salvage Artifact?
 

Lunaray

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,731
I mean, you had the buy-in, and then you also had to pay for anything more than that. So you might still need to pay 100+ for a Meta deck, but in a matter that you can't circumvent by grinding.

You can grind for it. Valve did implement a progression system, and you can go infinite in ranked if you were good, and they absolutely could have built on that but chose to abandon the game instead.

I don't see how this is any less circumventable than games like Hearthstone.
I think the general feeling is that Artifact crashed and burned so hard that a steady flow of updates wasn't going to be enough to cut it.

Part of the reason it crashed was they abandoned updates just 2 months after the game was released. I still feel strongly that they could have maintained a concurrent player count in the thousands were they willing to accept that as a success.
 

Megasoum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,567
Thanks for the link, I am watching it right now.

Quick question... I have never played any kind of CCG or followed that scene... What are those two things the guys have on each side of their face at 3:38 in the video?
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,086
Were there any specific people who kept him in check previously that Valve could bring on to salvage Artifact?

Not really - most of the time it's people who refine his games after he has left. Magic and Netrunner are the best two examples of this. Magic is the worlds most popular ccg and Netrunner is generally agreed to be the best two player card game ever. But both reached their best versions after Richard had left and other people took over design and development.

I mean, he is unprecedented- the guy has made numerous amazing, best in class games. But it seems on his own he comes up with great ideas but isn't the person to get them to their best place.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
I'm not really into the CCG community, so why did Artifact fail when LoL's card game (the direct MOBA competitor to DOTA) seems to be doing great?

• Riot made the smart move by announcing more than just the card game, people aren't hating their card game because they have other games to be positive about.
• F2P, fair progression path, no markets.
• Valve support for games: never proven to deliver content, nor they are interested in communications or roadmaps.
• Dota lore/artstyle is... fanfiction + HD assets. Valve started caring about the lore only to market Artifact, where Riot dug their trenches ages before branching out.

Though I think Runeterra isn't out of the woods yet. The mechanics will be tested, and people will have to make their own minds how it stacks against HS/MTG.
 

ChrisR

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,796
The Slacks stream on NYE was fun to watch for an hour or so.

Sucks the game just didn't have it right to get big. I didn't enjoy playing it though so I can see why it didn't.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
Richard Garfield is one of the best designers ever. But he is basically wrong about almost everything else. He doesn't understand basic concepts of fun, or how cards "feel" to play. Great example is the randomness in Artifact. He is objectively right when he says that randomness is less of an issue in Artifact than Magic - the results from games show that. However, what he doesn't understand is that the randomness in Artifact *feels* much worse, and that's why people hated it.

GArfield needs a team of people around him to curb some of his instincts. When he's supported and challenged hes made some of the best games on the planet, but when left unchecked he produces games like Artifact or the star Wars CCG that Wizards produced that failed drastically.

I dont understand this part of the video. The idea that the rng in Hearthstone or magic is objectively more "fun" is downright silly to me. Surely that is a highly subjective thing. The only objective comment to be made is the one Garfield makes.
Also the idea that he doesnt understand fun makes no sense when he has designed a game like Bunny kingdoms which is a ton of fun, and that is a game he has designed completely on his own.
He also had alot of creative freedom on Keyforge which he designed for Fantasy Flight Games. That game is a massive success and was designed around the same time he designed Artifact, a fact that this video never adresses or even mentions.

There are a bit too many opinions that Nerdslayer tries to twist as facts in this video to be honest.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,106
My main issue with the $20 entry fee is that I got pure shit with my cards, I couldn't build any decent deck with it, couldn't sell them at a good price, and what looked like the cool decks already required to pay even more money.

Comparing this with Hearthstone I recall that at the beggining I didn't really spent money for the first months, I still could do the dailies and get some packs or even play arena and had some fun, and only went into full whale mode after I already realized that the game was cool. Something similar happened to me with Magic Arena

In Artifact case, I had the problem that I felt that I wasted 20 dollars for nothing and the cards that I got couldn't convince me to get more into the game (didn't helped that the game died in what felt like 1 week after the open release and that Valve went radio silent)
 
Sep 14, 2018
4,623
Thanks for the link, I am watching it right now.

Quick question... I have never played any kind of CCG or followed that scene... What are those two things the guys have on each side of their face at 3:38 in the video?

I think those are microphones, looks like a showcase match or something. Early 90s tech.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,086
I dont understand this part of the video. The idea that the rng in Hearthstone or magic is objectively more "fun" is downright silly to me. Surely that is a highly subjective thing.

Not really, no. What most people count as 'fun' in a game has been studied endlessly. If you're interested, the head designer of Magic writes a weekly column (and podcast) where he often goes into these sort of things.

The randomness in artifact was 'bad' because it was a secondary layer of randomness on top of the built in luck factor of a CCG, and because it removes player control - you couldn't decide what your cards did, the game randomly did it for you. Whilst Magic has a greater amount of randomisation, it's all 'beneath the hood' - when you're card is on the table, you control what it does and there's no random factors to it outside of other cards.

Also just to note I wasn't referring to Hearthstone. Hearthstone has its own issues with randomisation. I was referring to other CCGs like Magic, Netrunner, etc.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
I dont understand this part of the video. The idea that the rng in Hearthstone or magic is objectively more "fun" is downright silly to me. Surely that is a highly subjective thing. The only objective comment to be made is the one Garfield makes.
Nah it makes sense. Honestly there's no worse feeling in the world than mana screw to me - it's why I can't play Magic - but the unit placement/arrows in Artifact was especially frustrating for people. Every turn you were getting your attacks declared for you, something that is basically completely foreign to the genre (whereas card draw randomness is inherently part of it). Could you play around it? Easily. Did it actually affect outcomes? For good players, basically never. But it obviously struck a nerve with people and I sort of get why, even if I'm not personally bothered by it.

And Hearthstone's RNG is atrocious, but it's the kind of thing that could win you games which you otherwise shouldn't have been able to. Sure that sucks for one player, but it feels really good if you're the other.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
But again what you two describe are opinions. Whenever fun is used in any kind of factual statement it rubs me the wrong way. To some people chess is fun, to others monopoly is. There is nothing remotely factual about what different people perceive as fun.
For me the Artifact randomness presented me with a new tactical puzzle for the next turn. That was more fun to me than getting mana screwed or having a card randomly win you the game. Still that doesnt mean I can say that Artifacts rng is objectively more fun. Its an opinion and as such makes little sense presented as fact.
 
Feb 16, 2018
2,685
artifact randomness is in the wrong place for limited

it's super swingy stuff with what heroes you open, where heroes spawn, and turning arrows

less of an issue in constructed though

mtg's randomness in limited is more in the contents of the packs, but there's so much player agency and metagaming and decision-making and control over that drafting portion that it makes the game better
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,086
But again what you two describe are opinions. Whenever fun is used in any kind of factual statement it rubs me the wrong way. To some people chess is fun, to others monopoly is. There is nothing remotely factual about what different people perceive as fun.
For me the Artifact randomness presented me with a new tactical puzzle for the next turn. That was more fun to me than getting mana screwed or having a card randomly win you the game. Still that doesnt mean I can say that Artifacts rng is objectively more fun. Its an opinion and as such makes little sense presented as fact.

There are some people who find it fun to be sparked with paddles. They are some people who can find fun in *anything*.

When people talk about 'what is fun' they are referring to what most people consider fun. Again, this isn't just a hypothetical - games design has been looking at this sort of stuff for *decades*. we *know* that certain things are much more likely to be perceived as enjoyable or fun by most people than others.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
But again what you two describe are opinions. Whenever fun is used in any kind of factual statement it rubs me the wrong way. To some people chess is fun, to others monopoly is. There is nothing remotely factual about what different people perceive as fun.
For me the Artifact randomness presented me with a new tactical puzzle for the next turn. That was more fun to me than getting mana screwed or having a card randomly win you the game. Still that doesnt mean I can say that Artifacts rng is objectively more fun. Its an opinion and as such makes little sense presented as fact.
I mean if enough people make the complaint, then yeah it's objectively less fun. Pretty sure there's ways to measure it, and at the highest/priciest level of game design they do tests to design things to be as fun (or addictive...) as possible.

artifact randomness is in the wrong place for limited

it's super swingy stuff with what heroes you open, where heroes spawn, and turning arrows

less of an issue in constructed though

mtg's randomness in limited is more in the contents of the packs, but there's so much player agency and metagaming and decision-making and control over that drafting portion that it makes the game better
I never found Artifact's randomness to be an issue in limited short of a player getting like Axe Axe Drow. I had a consistently good winrate in the format. I believe in general Artifact's top players had really high winrates (not necessarily a good thing).