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entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,147
medium.com

Dear Dad, Please Don’t Vote For Donald Trump This Time

I still believe in the values you instilled in me. Do you?



Ryan Holiday is author who has become pretty popular in pro sports circles for repacking the ancient philosophy of Stocism. He's a damn good writer as well. As a note, he's more of a moderate and definitely not Bernie/AOC style Democrat. And lives in Austin, Texas

Here, he repeats a letter he sent to his father regarding the Presidential election. The big difference is that Trump now has a record and he uses that as part of his argument.

Hey Dad,

Our relationship is strained.

It feels like it has been for a while. For the last four years, there has been an elephant in the room — I'd joke and call it an orange elephant, but I'm nervous that might end this earnest conversation before it even begins.

Have I changed? I mean, yes, of course I have. I've gotten older. I've had two children. I've tried to read and learn as much as possible, just as you taught me.
In fact, that's sort of the weirdest thing. I don't think I've changed much. I still believe, deep in my bones, all the fundamental things you not only talked to me about, but showed me when I was little.

I believe in character.

I believe in competence.

I believe in treating people decently.

I believe in moderation.

I believe in a better future and I believe in American exceptionalism, the idea that the system we were given by the Founding Fathers, although imperfect, has been an incredible vehicle for progress, moral improvement, and greatness, unlike any other system of government or country yet conceived.

I believe this exceptionalism comes with responsibilities.

Politically, I'm pretty much the same, too. Government is best when limited, but it's nonetheless necessary. Fair but low taxes grow the economy. Rights must be protected, privacy respected. Partisanship stops at the water's edge. No law can make people virtuous — that obligation rests on every individual.

So how is it even possible that we're here? Unable to travel, banned from entry by countless nations. The laughingstock of the developed world for our woeful response to a pandemic. 200,000 dead. It hasn't been safe to see you guys or grandma for months, despite being just a plane ride away. My children — your grandchildren — are deprived of their friends and school.

Meanwhile, the U.S., which was built on immigration — grandma being one who fled the ravages of war in Europe for a better life here — is now a bastion of anti-immigrant hysteria. Our relatives on your side fought for the Union in the Civil War. Great-grandpa fought against the Russians in WWI, and granddad landed at Normandy to stop the rise of fascism. And now people are marching with tiki-torches shouting, "the Jews will not replace us." What is happening?! Black men are shot down in the streets? Foreign nations are offering bounties on American soldiers?

And the President of the United States defends, rationalizes, or does nothing to stop this?
I'd say that's insane, but I'm too heartbroken. Because every step of the way, I've heard you defend, rationalize, or enable him and the politicians around him.

Not since I was a kid have I craved to hear your strong voice more, to hear you say anything reassuring, inspiring, morally cogent. If not for me, then for the world that will be left to your grandchildren. This does not feel like a good road we are going down…

Look, I know you're not to blame for this. You hold no position of power besides the one we all have as voters, but I guess I just always thought you believed in the lessons you taught me, and the things we used to listen to on talk radio on our drives home from the lake. All those conversations about American dignity, the power of private enterprise, the sacredness of the Oval Office, the primacy of the rule of law.

Now Donald Trump gushes over foreign strongmen. He cheats on his wife with porn stars (and bribes them with illegal campaign funds). He attacks whistleblowers (career army officers, that is). He lies blatantly and habitually, about both the smallest and largest of things. He enriches himself, his family members, and his business with expenditures straight from the public treasury. And that's just the stuff we know about. God knows what else has happened these last four years that executive privilege has allowed him to obscure from public view.

For those whose parents are voting opposite you, have you engaged in these types of discussions? Were they fruitful?
 
Oct 27, 2017
16,591
You want your dad to possibly stop being a pos then show him consequences. Don't interact, don't let him see his grandkids, talk to them anything. There needs to be real word local consequences to people like that otherwise they keep doing what they do.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
Author lost me when he said believed in American exceptionalism. If the last four years and this pandemic hasnt changed his mind, nothing will on that front. Saying it's imperfect is a real minimization.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,894
I believe in character.

I believe in competence.

I believe in treating people decently.

I believe in moderation.
Trumpers don't believe in any of that stuff. They are similar to Trump in one significant way.

All they care about is power. Specifically anyone who is willing to put the interests of white men above those of others.

They are garbage people and should never be allowed to talk about morals or character ever again.
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
You want your dad to possibly stop being a pos then show him consequences. Don't interact, don't let him see his grandkids, talk to them anything. There needs to be real word local consequences to people like that otherwise they keep doing what they do.
the man seems to have conservative values and has had a strained relationship with his father, if he sent a letter like this to him it was meant as a chance to patch things up because with COVID he realized he wanted to give it another shot not only for his sake but for his family's/children. But clearly the stipulation being "please dont vote for trump, hes not the one to uphold what you've taught me or believed in"

I don't know how well this post by a conservative will be received on this forum, but as someone who also lives in Texas and has a bigger chance to walk outside and see a Conservative individual plus I work in an industry LARGELY comprised of conservative individuals, I interact with people like these all the time and take any victory I can that at least folks are going out of their way to vote against their party and Donald Trump.
 

Deleted member 6263

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
Author lost me when he said believed in American exceptionalism. If the last four years and this pandemic hasnt changed his mind, nothing will on that front. Saying it's imperfect is a real minimization.
I kinda read it as, since he's talking to his dad he'd want a way to say something in earnest without immediately devolving into "this country has gone to shit" which would just turn his dad off from listening to anything else. It's just a way to soften the blow, get them to maybe start thinking, "hey yeah, maybe we're not perfect".
 

The Omega Man

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,927
I believe in a better future and I believe in American exceptionalism, the idea that the system we were given by the Founding Fathers, although imperfect, has been an incredible vehicle for progress, moral improvement, and greatness, unlike any other system of government or country yet conceived.

Imagine truly believing this, that's why Americans will never get out of that hole they are sinking into.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,710
Thanks for the post. I'm in Texas as well. While my parents are anti-trump as is my 93 year old grandmother, I have similar thoughts about elders that I do know in everyday life that reflect the issues with his father. I think its also a good reminder when I'm teaching my children now and how important it is to give them the tools to think critically even if those same tools are abandoned by those they respect.
 

bdbdbd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,904
Trumpers don't believe in any of that stuff.
But they say they do, and rather convincingly at times. In particular, when raising children and espousing these ideals during their development. So when the children grow up like this guy and find themselves confronted with a parent who turns around and votes for/defends Trump, it's a difficult thing to reconcile.
 

so1337

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,480
The letter raises a couple of very cogent points, especially in light of the writer's family history (how can you defend a president who won't even condemn white supremacists who yell "jews will not replace us" when you have a grandparent that fled a fascist nation where those chants originated), but I'm not sure how receptive Trump supporters are to cogent arguments.
 

Sai

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,622
Chicago
I would gerrymander and vote suppress the fuck out of my parents if they were conservative LMAO
 

jdmc13

Member
Mar 14, 2019
2,893
Imagine truly believing this, that's why Americans will never get out of that hole they are sinking into.
Depends on what he means, as a starting point for the time it came from, it's pretty good. But, this isn't 1800s, and we need to either keep up with the times or move to some new system. I can't think of anything that isn't a simple tool like a hammer that can be said to be fine "as-is" after more than a decade or two.

I think even Jefferson thought the Constitution should expire and be rewritten, but that could just be an urban legend.
 

RowdyReverb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,934
Austin, TX
I know some Texans that would love to show this article to their dads.
I don't know if I'm brave enough. My whole family is voting Trump. They make fun of him and don't like him, but they still voted for him. Twice now. I feel like if their minds are still made up, nothing at this point will change their mind and anything I do is just going to alienate me from them. I've tried to have conversations, but they go nowhere. They'll even nod and agree with me on some points, but they still vote red. Goddamn party politics they'll keep toeing the GOP line even when it means voting for a monster.
 

Poltergust

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,832
Orlando, FL
I had a conversation like this with my father a bit over a month ago, who was the only person in my immediate family that voted for Trump in 2016.

There was simply no way I could reconcile that the man I knew for so long would continue to support such a monster. He's one of the kindest people I know, and his vote for Trump in 2016 devastated me. It ran counter to all that he taught me when I was growing up. But for the sake of keeping the family together, outside my initial grievances back when Trump won I decided to bottle it in.

After RBG died, I couldn't hold in my silence any longer. I needed to get him away from Trump at all costs. I had to stand up to him and tell him that what he's about to do will have dire consequences for his family, both immediate and in the future. I needed him to consider just how much turmoil this whole situation was putting me through.

Fortunately, after a few phone calls, I actually did manage to get through to him. He's not voting Trump anymore (but is leaving the President option blank because he'll basically never support the Democrats). That's all I wanted from him though, and I simply couldn't be any more relieved.
 

MrRob

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,671
I've tried to talk to my father about this multiple times. He's just too far gone down the Fox News/Facebook hole to recognize reality anymore it's really sad and upsets me. I've been a democratic operative organizing voters and working on various campaigns since Gore. I got into this because of my dad. He was such a different person before Fox News.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,038
Got into a pretty lengthy argument with my parents back in July or August, they know where I stand, and I know that they're cultists, and I just keep it separate now. I could make any number of convincing arguments to them but it wouldn't matter because at the end of the day they both tune into their IV drip feed of propaganda on Fox News, and that's what shapes their worldview. I don't bother with them politically, which is a shame, pre-Trump, even 8 - 10 years ago, we could have constructive conversations about politics. We'd disagree on major issues, but would agree on core concepts of Americanism. But, today, they're cultists. The only ways I can really work them down is finding wedges between them and their party; the anti-vax stuff (my mom is like a 40+ year nurse, always in support of public health), conspiracy theory stuff. I'm just thankful neither of them are on Facebook. It's disappointing to me because they're both smart people, but even smart people can succumb to a cult. They don't really try to goad me, but they do try to goad my wife and I don't have any of it. They know not to bring up politics around me because I'm done suffering fools and I know them well enough to know how to make them uncomfortable; they also have a hard time with me because Fox convinces them that all Democrats are uhh, like socialists ANTIFA members, or bleeding hearts or something.

I warned them in 2016 that nominating Trump would kill the Republican party, and that electing him president could kill the United States.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
There was simply no way I could reconcile that the man I knew for so long would continue to support such a monster. He's one of the kindest people I know, and his vote for Trump in 2016 devastated me. It ran counter to all that he taught me when I was growing up.
Exact same with my father. Unfortunately my dad shares some really stubborn narcissistic tendencies with his favorite president and I could never convince him of anything. Fox and Mark Levin are the only "news" he trusts and listens to.
 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,864
Boston
You want your dad to possibly stop being a pos then show him consequences. Don't interact, don't let him see his grandkids, talk to them anything. There needs to be real word local consequences to people like that otherwise they keep doing what they do.
uh nope. the only way people's political views change is if they have relationships with people who challenge them, gently, over time. cutting them off only strengthens the echo chamber and the partisan resentment. anybody here who like me had their views change from right to left over their lives, likely it didn't happen overnight. it's frustrating and incredibly disappointing but if it's going to happen it's going to happen gradually
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,731
I believe in American exceptionalism, the idea that the system we were given by the Founding Fathers, although imperfect, has been an incredible vehicle for progress, moral improvement, and greatness, unlike any other system of government or country yet conceived.

Fucking lol.
 

Lost Lemurian

Member
Nov 30, 2019
4,297
I'm so, so thankful that my conservative parents didn't end up as Trump supporters. My mom thinks he's an imbecile, and my dad sees him as a complete failure policy-wise.

My heart goes out to all of you who weren't so lucky.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,894
But they say they do, and rather convincingly at times. In particular, when raising children and espousing these ideals during their development. So when the children grow up like this guy and find themselves confronted with a parent who turns around and votes for/defends Trump, it's a difficult thing to reconcile.
I took them at their word UNTIL they threw all of that away for Trump.

Now I think they were always dirtbags and just tried to hide it behind religion and "conservative" values.

You don't just flip a switch and decide to be immoral and corrupt person overnight.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
For those whose parents are voting opposite you, have you engaged in these types of discussions? Were they fruitful?

No, it's pointless. They are so brainwashed they're really think everything they hear bad about trump is complete lies and fake news. And they really live in their own world about it (earlier this year my step mom was proclaiming how she liked trump cause he got rid of all the corruption). They think I'm the completely brainwashed one. Plus I'm honestly not good about not getting aggravated so it never ends well so ion general we bury to avoid talking about it.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
You want your dad to possibly stop being a pos then show him consequences. Don't interact, don't let him see his grandkids, talk to them anything. There needs to be real word local consequences to people like that otherwise they keep doing what they do.

That doesn't help. They'll just chalk it up to me being unreasonable. They already bitched about liberal friends who stopped talking to them when Bush jr was president and would say how intolerant the left is and how they are so much more tolerant cause they don't break friendships over different opinions. Plus that just leaves them more in a bubble of only people who agree with them talking with them and helps reinforce the brainwashing.
 

ryan13ts

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,102
uh nope. the only way people's political views change is if they have relationships with people who challenge them, gently, over time. cutting them off only strengthens the echo chamber and the partisan resentment. anybody here who like me had their views change from right to left over their lives, likely it didn't happen overnight. it's frustrating and incredibly disappointing but if it's going to happen it's going to happen gradually

Exactly. This type of 'all or nothing' approach does nothing but further push people leaning that way further into radicalization, which completely defeats the purpose. Change doesn't happen overnight, and especially with people, who have likely been indoctrinated with that type of thinking over long periods of time. It is incredibly frustrating, but the only way to get people out of that mindset is dedication to trying to show them why it's wrong and patience.

Strong arm tactics just isn't going to get you anywhere, especially in this climate.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
Conversations like this one are probably happening all across the country. I hope he gets through. It's usually a long shot, but this guy obviously wants his dad back.

It's weird how a lot of people who were otherwise normal just drink the kool-aid, and then develop this huge moral and mental blind spot to this asshole. It's not the first time we've heard of someone watching a friend or family member go off the deep end.
 

shiba5

I shed
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
15,791
medium.com

Dear Dad, Please Don’t Vote For Donald Trump This Time

I still believe in the values you instilled in me. Do you?



Ryan Holiday is author who has become pretty popular in pro sports circles for repacking the ancient philosophy of Stocism. He's a damn good writer as well. As a note, he's more of a moderate and definitely not Bernie/AOC style Democrat. And lives in Austin, Texas

Here, he repeats a letter he sent to his father regarding the Presidential election. The big difference is that Trump now has a record and he uses that as part of his argument.





For those whose parents are voting opposite you, have you engaged in these types of discussions? Were they fruitful?


Yes, but I can't reach the nothing-but-FOX family members.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
Exactly. This type of 'all or nothing' approach does nothing but further push people leaning that way further into radicalization, which completely defeats the purpose. Change doesn't happen overnight, and especially with people, who have likely been indoctrinated with that type of thinking over long periods of time. It is incredibly frustrating, but the only way to get people out of that mindset is dedication to trying to show them why it's wrong and patience.

Strong arm tactics just isn't going to get you anywhere, especially in this climate.
Agreed. For me, took years, luck and chance, and being away from the political mood at home. Got lucky that my freshman-year political history profession was extremely liberal (like she had conservative students walk out yelling at her and make complaints) where I learned about concepts like the Constitution as a living document.
 

Futureman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,404
it's literally a nightmare in my mind that he has so much support across the country. Just so gross and upsetting. Please end it this week.
 

El_TigroX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,218
New York, NY
Fortunately, after a few phone calls, I actually did manage to get through to him. He's not voting Trump anymore (but is leaving the President option blank because he'll basically never support the Democrats). That's all I wanted from him though, and I simply couldn't be any more relieved.

Thank you. It's not easy, it's soul wrenching, but you did the right thing. And he did too.
 

bdbdbd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,904
I took them at their word UNTIL they threw all of that away for Trump.

Now I think they were always dirtbags and just tried to hide it behind religion and "conservative" values.

You don't just flip a switch and decide to be immoral and corrupt person overnight.
But you do apparently flip a switch when it comes to your views of them. Not everyone has that ability.
 

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
I don't know if I'm brave enough. My whole family is voting Trump. They make fun of him and don't like him, but they still voted for him. Twice now. I feel like if their minds are still made up, nothing at this point will change their mind and anything I do is just going to alienate me from them. I've tried to have conversations, but they go nowhere. They'll even nod and agree with me on some points, but they still vote red. Goddamn party politics they'll keep toeing the GOP line even when it means voting for a monster.
It's tough. Their dads range from Hooters-loving "share this FB post and get $1000 in the near future" idiots who refuse to change, to gentle, older, God-loving/fearing cowboys who have just bought into nonsense.

Which is wild, considering that Biden is far and away more of a Christian than Trump will ever be.
 

Beignet

alt account
Banned
Aug 1, 2020
2,638
It's tough. Their dads range from Hooters-loving "share this FB post and get $1000 in the near future" idiots who refuse to change, to gentle, older, God-loving/fearing cowboys who have just bought into nonsense.

Which is wild, considering that Biden is far and away more of a Christian than Trump will ever be.
It's Fox News