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DCEU Era |OT2| Joker's Wild

Erza won

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 26.2%

  • Oh hell yes

    Votes: 45 73.8%
  • Total voters
    61
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Donald Draper

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
MHWilliams said:
I'll note I'm close to this because I write editorial and reviews for living. I have written negative reviews and articles on specific works. I satand by those words, but some attempt to accuse that as a negative because it will led to X being added or removed, or a game they enjoy not getting a sequel. That's largely not my problem. My job is to put my honest feelings out there in a coherent manner. If those words causes a content creator to rethink their decision on their work, yeah, that can happen. My words matter. Your words matter. Their work matters. This is all a part of the discussion.

Likewise, responses to my work, as long as they're civil, are fine. That's the conversation. You can absolutely decide a review is useless. That's the point. You can make your voice heard, saying it shouldn't have been published. How that's handled is up to the publisher. (See the Kotaku article, which they ultimately apologized for. They pull the article too. Is that censorship? I don't think so.) Speech comes for all sides, and it may lead to action, but it, in and of itself, is technically not action. And making it so is just saying, "Do not criticize the things I like!".
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Your arguing something I'm not.

Look, when the James Gunn thing happened there was no honesty about it. It was far right people weaponizing outrage for a "win."

They didnt actually care that James Gunn made those jokes. They defend those type of jokes constantly. But they used it.

Outrage has been weaponized. Its proven to be effective. Its politicized.

The vast majority of the people fear mongering have not even seen Joker. That's a fact. The discourse has reached a point where quite a few people straight up don't even want the film released and would happily see it pulled. That isnt some level headed review over natural discourse of the themes of a film. It's people actively wanting to censor a film they havent even seen for fears incels and alt right people will latch onto it. This discourse around the film is dishonest posturing and has almost nothing to do with the actual film because they havent even watched it.

It would be a little different if it had already come out and we were discussing its themes but we arent. People have made up their minds and dug their heels in the sand. And some of the reviews like the time one are straight up garbage and are a sad excuse for professional.
 
MHWilliams

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Donald Draper said:
Your arguing something I'm not.

Look, when the James Gunn thing happened there was no honesty about it. It was far right people weaponizing outrage for a "win."

They didnt actually care that James Gunn made those jokes. They defend those type of jokes constantly. But they used it.

Outrage has been weaponized. Its proven to be effective. Its politicized.

The vast majority of the people fear mongering have not even seen Joker. That's a fact. The discourse has reached a point where quite a few people straight up don't even want the film released and would happily see it pulled. That isnt some level headed review over natural discourse of the themes of a film. It's people actively wanting to censor a film they havent even seen for fears incels and alt right people will latch onto it. This discourse around the film is dishonest posturing and has almost nothing to do with the actual film because they havent even watched it.

It would be a little different if it had already come out and we were discussing its themes but we arent. People have made up their minds and dug their heels in the sand. And some of the reviews like the time one are straight up garbage and are a sad excuse for professional.
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Let's put it this way.

A) If you say, "I don't like Jurassic World. Jurassic World shouldn't exist." That's fine. That's speech.
B) And if 20 million people join you and say the same thing, it's still fine. That's still speech. And Paramount agrees with the consensus and changes direction, scrapping Jurassic World 3, that is not censorship.
C) Now if they've made Jurassic World 3 already and they're pulling it ahead of release, I'd say they as the owners need to stand behind the work they created. And you can draw a line between A and C, but that doesn't necessarily mean A or B is censorship. It's as faulty as saying that the Joker itself could cause violence. A work of art could embolden such an action, but it's not actually tied to the action itself. And you don't necessarily have the ability to naturally assume A is disingenuous on my part or not.

Of course it's effective. That's corporations producing commercial art listening to what they believe are their customers. And equal speech is what was ultimately behind the reverse on that decision, showing them that those that made the original argument weren't actually their customers.

The magic of the idea of free speech is it actually can be disingenuous. Still speech man. Now if you're saying that speech that you consider harmful shouldn't exist—then yeah, I somewhat agree—but then you're deciding which kinds of speech shouldn't exist or be spread, which runs counter to your argument and is a much deeper conversation. Art is just speech in a different form.

Again, I'm probably closer to this, because I get comments that my work shouldn't exist for whatever reason all the time. But that's still valid on their part, as long as they're civil about it.

Ross62 said:
As Astra radicalized me to hate discussion about sci-fi films
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It can get real tiring.
 
Donald Draper

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
MHWilliams said:
Let's put it this way.

A) If you say, "I don't like Jurassic World. Jurassic World shouldn't exist." That's fine. That's speech.
B) And if 20 million people join you and say the same thing, it's still fine. That's still speech. And Paramount agrees with the consensus and changes direction, scrapping Jurassic World 3, that is not censorship.
C) Now if they've made Jurassic World 3 already and they're pulling it ahead of release, I'd say they as the owners need to stand behind the work they created. And you can draw a line between A and C, but that doesn't necessarily mean A or B is censorship. It's as faulty as saying that the Joker itself could cause violence. A work of art could embolden such an action, but it's not actually tied to the action itself. And you don't necessarily have the ability to naturally assume A is disingenuous on my part or not.

Of course it's effective. That's corporations producing commercial art listening to what they believe are their customers. And equal speech is what was ultimately behind the reverse on that decision, showing them that those that made the original argument weren't actually their customers.

The magic of the idea of free speech is it actually can be disingenuous. Still speech man. Now if you're saying that speech that you consider harmful shouldn't exist—then yeah, I somewhat agree—but then you're deciding which kinds of speech shouldn't exist or be spread, which runs counter to your argument and is a much deeper conversation. Art is just speech in a different form.

Again, I'm probably closer to this, because I get comments that my work shouldn't exist for whatever reason all the time. But that's still valid on their part, as long as they're civil about it.



It can get real tiring.
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I'm not arguing it shouldnt exist though.

I'm saying people should just be honest about what they're trying to accomplish. That's all I'm saying.

That's the thing bothering me. The dishonesty and semantics games people are playing.
 
Boxy Brown

Boxy Brown

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,503
MHWilliams said:
Let's put it this way.

A) If you say, "I don't like Jurassic World. Jurassic World shouldn't exist." That's fine. That's speech.
B) And if 20 million people join you and say the same thing, it's still fine. That's still speech. And Paramount agrees with the consensus and changes direction, scrapping Jurassic World 3, that is not censorship.
C) Now if they've made Jurassic World 3 already and they're pulling it ahead of release, I'd say they as the owners need to stand behind the work they created. And you can draw a line between A and C, but that doesn't necessarily mean A or B is censorship. It's as faulty as saying that the Joker itself could cause violence. A work of art could embolden such an action, but it's not actually tied to the action itself. And you don't necessarily have the ability to naturally assume A is disingenuous on my part or not.

Of course it's effective. That's corporations producing commercial art listening to what they believe are their customers. And equal speech is what was ultimately behind the reverse on that decision, showing them that those that made the original argument weren't actually their customers.

The magic of the idea of free speech is it actually can be disingenuous. Still speech man. Now if you're saying that speech that you consider harmful shouldn't exist—then yeah, I somewhat agree—but then you're deciding which kinds of speech shouldn't exist or be spread, which runs counter to your argument and is a much deeper conversation. Art is just speech in a different form.

Again, I'm probably closer to this, because I get comments that my work shouldn't exist for whatever reason all the time. But that's still valid on their part, as long as they're civil about it.



It can get real tiring.
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Forget everything thing else about the film, the science of it has to be air tight or it just falls apart!
 
MHWilliams

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Donald Draper said:
I'm not arguing it shouldnt exist though.

I'm saying people should just be honest about what they're trying to accomplish. That's all I'm saying.

That's the thing bothering me. The dishonesty and semantics games people are playing.
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Ahh, gotcha. Understandable.

Ross62 said:
Forget everything thing else about the film, the science of it has to be air tight or it just falls apart!
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It's clearly more about his emotional journey, and less about the science, though it's more grounded than some other scifi films.
 
bohex1984

bohex1984

Member
Oct 27, 2017
521
Meanwhile, in every screening done outside United States, it's been almost unanimous praise from people and critics...really excited for this one!!
 
Smokey_Run

Smokey_Run

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,630
I'm just staying out of that thread. I don't think I've said anything crazy, but I'm not taking my chances. I'll just say I side with Todd Phillips on most of what he said.
 
Boxy Brown

Boxy Brown

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,503
Phoenix and Phillips lack the tact for this discussion, and Phoenix has engaged in the bad faith argument of Joker v John Wick(even though that has problematic elements that aren't adressed enough). All that aside, I generally side with them. The moral panic over this film has reached absurd levels and I hope we all reflect on this when it comes out and we find out it wasn't worth it.

(We won't reflect. This moment is gonna pass and this situation is gonna happen again with a movie with similar themes.)
 

Deleted member 4353

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,559
At this point the movie just needs to come out so we can all move on. One thing that always pisses me off about this site is how people in OT who are arguing that the movie blah blah blah all think they're right and everyone else is wrong.
 
Boxy Brown

Boxy Brown

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,503
OT threads are just both sides talking over each other and arguing over what they perceived what the other said without responding to what was actually typed.
 
Wingfan19

Wingfan19

Layout Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
9,747
Bothell WA
dozytfuntxo31.jpg


And here's a new outfit for Harley (alongside Cathy Yan), gonna spoilertag it for now...

vgfie02hkzo31.jpg
 
Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,024
Looking forward to to October 3rd opening night.

Also looking forward to seeing "SEE STAFF POST" added to the OT I made because people don't know how to act. (It'll probably the first movie with that distinction on here)
 
Donald Draper

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
Maybe it's because I havent been reading every page or not paying close enough attention but it seems like mods have been mostly hands off on these discussions. I think I recall one thread with see staff post.

I'm still laughing that somebody reported posts in this thread to bring mods in.
 
Dierce

Dierce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,993
Had Joker reviewed badly outside of the USA or had American critics been the only ones to review it first, I bet they would have had a different bone to pick with it. But because it was such a critical success and won a prestigious award it suddenly became a dangerous movie that will wreck havoc In murica and give incels the clear to go on killing sprees.

Im also interested to see how they will treat the upcoming DC films because of it, especially BoP, Batman and TSS.
 
Sweeney Swift

Sweeney Swift

User Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,743
#IStandWithTaylor
I don't expect this post to be engaged with now, for the record, but I hope it's not dismissed completely and I felt like at least making a fair attempt at seeing how a thread I otherwise really do love (even at its most optimistic, see Suicide Squad and JL, I always browsed. I loved coming in here during the Aquaman hype. You can even find me in the old thread defending Wan when a thread regular here didn't get why he was trusted so much when that project was anticipated) feel after a viewing when coming back and looking at this spoilery Twitter thread https://twitter.com/CarrieCnh12/status/1171485024178204677 Thread starts two posts earlier (with her having looked forward to seeing it btw) but thought I'd link from the beginning of the criticism

I said it in the fears thread and I'll repeat it here: it's hard to not notice as a minority that the first opinions always thrown out the window first are opinions from minorities. The tweet thread from the black woman critic, her opinions are apparently considered less legitimate than the critics who gave this film an award, so her feeling afraid "doesn't count", despite her also having fucking watched the film. Forget disrespectful: it's disappointing and disheartening that our thoughts and our fears are always pushed aside when it's inconvenient or goes against the desired effect (in this case, a unanimously beloved, incredibly respectful film, that's the biggest box office success ever, branding the DC logo on it)

We don't feel safe, but that doesn't translate to dollar signs so it doesn't matter. How is that more fair than the hate?

Again, just thought I'd contribute my thoughts to a thread I do care about (despite how much of an asshole some of you seem to unsubtly think I am) and post a thread of legit complaints, from a fellow minority who legit saw the film, and hope it gets at least sympathized with/understood better (instead of casually immediately dismissed as "nothing" like so much similar seems to already have been) when some of you see the film next week
 
Chuck Noblet

Chuck Noblet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,090
Sweeney Swift said:
I don't expect this post to be engaged with now, for the record, but I hope it's not dismissed completely and I felt like at least making a fair attempt at seeing how a thread I otherwise really do love (even at its most optimistic, see Suicide Squad and JL, I always browsed. I loved coming in here during the Aquaman hype. You can even find me in the old thread defending Wan when a thread regular here didn't get why he was trusted so much when that project was anticipated) feel after a viewing when coming back and looking at this spoilery Twitter thread https://twitter.com/CarrieCnh12/status/1171485024178204677 Thread starts two posts earlier (with her having looked forward to seeing it btw) but thought I'd link from the beginning of the criticism

I said it in the fears thread and I'll repeat it here: it's hard to not notice as a minority that the first opinions always thrown out the window first are opinions from minorities. The tweet thread from the black woman critic, her opinions are apparently considered less legitimate than the critics who gave this film an award, so her feeling afraid "doesn't count", despite her also having fucking watched the film. Forget disrespectful: it's disappointing and disheartening that our thoughts and our fears are always pushed aside when it's inconvenient or goes against the desired effect (in this case, a unanimously beloved, incredibly respectful film, that's the biggest box office success ever, branding the DC logo on it)

We don't feel safe, but that doesn't translate to dollar signs so it doesn't matter. How is that more fair than the hate?

Again, just thought I'd contribute my thoughts to a thread I do care about (despite how much of an asshole some of you seem to unsubtly think I am) and post a thread of legit complaints, from a fellow minority who legit saw the film, and hope it gets at least sympathized with/understood better (instead of casually immediately dismissed as "nothing" like so much similar seems to already have been) when some of you see the film next week
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I appreciate you taking the time to write all this up.



Let's just say for example that the movie gets pulled. Wb gets cold feet, whatever. Movie no longer releases. Incels are still going to be radicalized directly from the president of the United States. Gun control in America won't be any closer to having any kind of legislation. The medical system will still be incredibly broken and failing millions of people. Those that need critical mental health care will be denied it.


Having some fears is understandable given the current climate, but I don't think that the joker movie is some powderkeg that's gonna set people off. Disturbed people will find any reason to lash out. But being ruled by fear because of the potential harm from incels seeing a movie doesn't seem like any way to live.
 
Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,024
Chuck Noblet said:
I appreciate you taking the time to write all this up.



Let's just say for example that the movie gets pulled. Wb gets cold feet, whatever. Movie no longer releases. Incels are still going to be radicalized directly from the president of the United States. Gun control in America won't be any closer to having any kind of legislation. The medical system will still be incredibly broken and failing millions of people. Those that need critical mental health care will be denied it.


Having some fears is understandable given the current climate, but I don't think that the joker movie is some powderkeg that's gonna set people off. Disturbed people will find any reason to lash out. But being ruled by fear because of the potential harm from incels seeing a movie doesn't seem like any way to live.
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I fully understand what Sweeney Swift said but I also agree with you.
 

Deleted member 4353

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,559
As I said before, this whole thing is mainly an American problem. The fact that a freaking 18 year old can go buy a fucking AK-47 that easily is a problem only in America. Your president,the loud mouthed billy goat, Fox News, Facebook and YouTube have been radicalizing people for a while now.

You can't blame a freaking Joker movie for it or video games. Other countries around

the world see the same media that american's do and they don't have that problem.

It's very easy to understand the fears from some people but that is still no reason to live in fear. In that case in America, no one might as well leave the house for fear of being hit my a mass shooter.

For the black critic one, I understand that too.

One thing that I sure as shit know, is that some of the fears from some people here are not really genuine. Some of it is just bullshit.


Donald Draper said:
Maybe it's because I havent been reading every page or not paying close enough attention but it seems like mods have been mostly hands off on these discussions. I think I recall one thread with see staff post.

I'm still laughing that somebody reported posts in this thread to bring mods in.
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I wonder who the snitch was. lol.
 
Pandora012

Pandora012

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,495
jrush64 said:
As I said before, this whole thing is mainly an American problem. The fact that a freaking 18 year old can go buy a fucking AK-47 that easily is a problem only in America. Your president,the loud mouthed billy goat, Fox News, Facebook and YouTube have been radicalizing people for a while now.

You can't blame a freaking Joker movie for it or video games. Other countries around

the world see the same media that american's do and they don't have that problem.

It's very easy to understand the fears from some people but that is still no reason to live in fear. In that case in America, no one might as well leave the house for fear of being hit my a mass shooter.

For the black critic one, I understand that too.

One thing that I sure as shit know, is that some of the fears from some people here are not really genuine. Some of it is just bullshit.




I wonder who the snitch was. lol.
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It was me. Can never trust those with the Avengers tag. Ive been a double agent. Forgive me.

Sweeney Swift said:
I don't expect this post to be engaged with now, for the record, but I hope it's not dismissed completely and I felt like at least making a fair attempt at seeing how a thread I otherwise really do love (even at its most optimistic, see Suicide Squad and JL, I always browsed. I loved coming in here during the Aquaman hype. You can even find me in the old thread defending Wan when a thread regular here didn't get why he was trusted so much when that project was anticipated) feel after a viewing when coming back and looking at this spoilery Twitter thread https://twitter.com/CarrieCnh12/status/1171485024178204677 Thread starts two posts earlier (with her having looked forward to seeing it btw) but thought I'd link from the beginning of the criticism

I said it in the fears thread and I'll repeat it here: it's hard to not notice as a minority that the first opinions always thrown out the window first are opinions from minorities. The tweet thread from the black woman critic, her opinions are apparently considered less legitimate than the critics who gave this film an award, so her feeling afraid "doesn't count", despite her also having fucking watched the film. Forget disrespectful: it's disappointing and disheartening that our thoughts and our fears are always pushed aside when it's inconvenient or goes against the desired effect (in this case, a unanimously beloved, incredibly respectful film, that's the biggest box office success ever, branding the DC logo on it)

We don't feel safe, but that doesn't translate to dollar signs so it doesn't matter. How is that more fair than the hate?

Again, just thought I'd contribute my thoughts to a thread I do care about (despite how much of an asshole some of you seem to unsubtly think I am) and post a thread of legit complaints, from a fellow minority who legit saw the film, and hope it gets at least sympathized with/understood better (instead of casually immediately dismissed as "nothing" like so much similar seems to already have been) when some of you see the film next week
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm not sure i understand your minority part. People will ignore someone that dislikes something that they hope is great, or have a connection to. I think that defining it as a minority issue in this case is a bit of a stretch. As many minority critics i have followed and some that i just read their reviews from about the movie enjoyed it. While others at the same time found it a pretty horrible movie. It just seems like you are ignoring other people's experiences with the movie to further what you believe.

I have not seen the movie, however i will see the movie. I will have a better idea if i support that critic you posted about or not. But as things are now, I fully see that it is problematic for some while it isn't for others. Even the ones that have praised it have mentioned that it's an extremely uncomfortable movie. And I am explicitly speaking of the minority critics out there.

And i guess i have to say I'm a minority too, just so my opinion won't be wiped away as priviledge.
 
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Dierce

Dierce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,993
I would completely understand the criticism if the Joker was actually targeting women, minorities, LGBT people in the movie but that isn't the case. Also this idea that he must be an incel because he's a loner in the film and therefore has become an incel icon is equally absurd.

My biggest gripe is just how sad it is to see leftists adopt the right wing excuse that somehow a movie or a video game is responsible for violence when many have already pointed out, it's a predominantly American problem because of how easy it is to acquire guns in the country. The Joker is clearly a very dark and possibly pessimistic comic book movie and a lot of critics simply dislike that in a genre that they still believe is supposed to be targeted toward kids. So it's a neat excuse to go straight toward blaming it for potential violence in America.

Some American critics were in disbelief when they saw that it won an award even before they personally got to see the movie. Some even felt a relief when they noticed that it only got a few seconds of standing ovation at Toronto compared to Venice. It's clear that they already had concerns about the movie before even seeing it.
 
Wingfan19

Wingfan19

Layout Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
9,747
Bothell WA
I mean, that's clearly an automated reply. But the fact that username is allowed is be used is the real problem. Also, the racist piece of shit that's using it.
 
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