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Erza won

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 26.2%
  • Oh hell yes

    Votes: 45 73.8%

  • Total voters
    61
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broncobuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,139
I think partly what made the Batman action in BvS so good is showing him fighting against the odds but using tactical strikes to overcome. A lot of his moves in the warehouse scene were to disorient, distract, and separate the goons. And the goons weren't waiting their turn to attack.

That's a quality I'd like to see for the 'human' fighters.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I guess the difference here is thinking there's an "answer" to the Superman question. For me, the movie presents it as it should: there is no answer, right or wrong. That's not how the world operates. And Superman as a presence is a paradigm shift. That's one of the central themes. Different people coming to terms with this new world. The "they will stumble, they will fall, but in time they will join you in the sun" line is basically the arc they were building towards.

also, the senator especially wouldn't be laying out a case for Superman. Her goals were wanting to force accountability on him either through the US Government or as an asset for them. Her whole deal is trying to manage this new world through that government oversight lens. And that's a troublesome view to have Superman act as a lackey for the US government (which is another refutation of TDKReturns).

There can definitely be an answer to that question, or at least an argument about what Superman's impact on the world is. He's an immense game changer in their reality, as it would be in ours. Particularly since this Superman is fine going all Authority on dictators, in contrast to typical incarnations of Superman in other media who don't touch topics like that because they don't want the audience to think too much about the implications. Snyder, however, wants to do this with this Superman, except unlike the Authority, who routinely delved into the good and bad about the implications he didn't want to dig deeper then surface level, so he could pretend this Superman has the same impact as regular Superman does. Which is a shame, since that is an intriguing take on the concept had it been done like Warren Ellis rather than Michael Bay. The world operates by reacting and analysing to events which can evolve, which we got part of in B vs S, rather than the full picture of what Superman means to the world. This is all ignored in the last act so they can fight Doomsday in a pointless fight to display the latest special effects technology.

The movie referenced him occasionally as a game changer, but all we got was surface detail nothing with meat on it. The movie barely touched on the events MOS had, they never tackled the subject over Superman killing people was right or not. When we do meet Superman again, he's perfectly fine with that decision only now he's content to extend that to humans. Which negates his stance on Batman, why does he hate him so much? He's a killer just like Superman he just doesn't have super-powers, they're very similar when their rivalry is shaped with contrast in other media like the Timm-Verse and the comics. Wonder Woman never comments on any of this.

The senator had a case that Superman "is" and that is the extent of her thoughts on that context, which is dropped after she says it. Supposedly she's for his accountability with the government, which is an argument which I'd love to have watched for a few minutes with her and Superman going back and forth on whether he should be accountable to the government - we didn't get that, the room exploded as soon as he showed up. He briefly argued with Lois about hating humanity then it's dropped entirely from the movie, no resolution.

DKR's argument about Superman being a tool of the government isn't addressed in the movie since he never does it. The government is framed as being fairly ok, aside from Luthor being able to comically corrupt everything around him and get away with it. But that says more about Luthor than the government. The argument against Superman is that one day he'll snap and destroy humanity, we have more evidence in this in the film than Superman doing this being abused by the government. That's a theme which is thoroughly explored in Suicide Squad.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,524
BvS isn't meant to be a straight adaption of TDKR. They don't know each other to start with. Bruce gets dreams that Superman is brainwashed by Darkseid in the future. He gets a premonition from Flash. He's tired of beating thugs in Gotham because it doesn't work. He experiences the 9/11 of Metropolis first hand. The film absolutely explores the idea that a war weary Batman wants to rid the world of a demigod. He believes Superman might pose a threat to humanity. Superman is silent throughout the film because this dynamic wouldn't otherwise work. Batman is technically a villain but his reasoning isn't black and white. It's tricky to balance their screentime and development. People argue it's more a Batman film than a Superman film, which I agree, but maybe they really thought audiences would buy the premise. They did not.
 

luca

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,495
I've always felt like Shazam has a higher chance of hitting a wider audience. Just the concept of a kid transforming into a superhero seem to be a much easier sell than anything else DC has released. Wonder Woman and Aquaman has done high numbers, so I expect Shazam to do somewhere of $700m worldwide. But let's see.
 

broncobuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,139
Snyder not doing a proper standalone Batman will always be a missed opportunity.

The dream was a Fincher Batman. For the briefest of moments, there was hope Affleck would use his Gone Girl connection to coax him on board; the way Brad Pitt got him on for World War Z2.

But Matt Reeves is an exceptionally strong choice. Like, it's him, Coogler, and Chloe Zhao as arguably the three strongest directors to sign on for a superhero movie in some time.

(Patty Jenkins is great as well, but she only really has Monster as a showpiece ahead of WW)
 
Nov 13, 2017
9,537
I think Joker will do better than Shazam. I think Shazam will be successful, but not a megahit. It doesn't have the same spectacle-ness to it that Aquaman does, so it won't make much money in China me thinks. Same goes for Joker overseas, but I do think people in the US will be very excited to see a Joker that's more of a throwback to what they know.

Anyone else dying to see some Birds of Prey teasers? I can't wait to see Harley's new costume. Also so curious about Black Canary's hair. I'm imagining she'll have an ombre effect instead of bleaching all of it or wearing a wig.

qYKKwiG.jpg


This with the blonde turned up a little brighter would be so perfect.
 

Penguin

The Mushroom Kingdom Knight
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,214
New York
I see many of you are now suffering DC Persecution Complex!

https://variety.com/2019/film/featu...reenwriters-birds-of-prey-batgirl-1203097858/

What does the subtitle of your upcoming Harley Quinn film, "Birds of Prey (And the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn)," mean in regards to its themes and ideas?

I kind of think it's all in there. I think it sets the tone a little bit in that it's a little tongue-in-cheek. My hands are so tied. But I do think it speaks for itself a little bit. Emancipation means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, and we're going to be exploring that in different ways.

Will fans be able to accept an emancipated Harley Quinn?

I do. I think she really has [been accepted] in the comics already, but I think absolutely people are ready for that. She is such a cool, bold, fun, great character. She doesn't have to be in anyone's shadow. So I'm excited to see Harley stand on her own and be her own thing. She is the character, in all of my writing, that I've most enjoyed. I'm excited to bring her into the world a second time. She's so full of contradictions, she's so intelligent, but also so crazy. She's just the most fun to write. You never know what you're gonna get when you sit down.


How does writing "Batgirl" compare to Harley and Charlie?

I'm in the middle of falling in love with her. I always feel differently at the beginning, middle, and end. Charlie feels like an old friend now, because that was a while ago and because she is so personally inspired. Harley just feels like my crazy alter ego. When I'm feeling nuts, that's what Harley is. And Batgirl…honestly it's funny, there's a little piece of me in every character I write. They start with me, and then they take on a life of their own. She's been through so many iterations. There's certain characteristics of hers that are always there that I'm excited to develop further. Whenever I'm writing a character who's based on someone who's existed in a previous form, whether it's comics or a movie or anything, I always hope to bring something new to them and bring them to life in their own way, even if they fairly iconic like Harley Quinn or Batgirl. I think fans want the original, to be honest, but they also want to see something they haven't seen before.
 

Mario Bilo

trying to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Jan 7, 2018
796
How are we feeling with the fact that essential New Line is the studio that is saving the DC films. Harada is a New Line guy, so is Wan, Shazam is produced by New Line entirely, Flash' directors just did Game Night for New Line.

Kinda interesting that it's the smaller of the two studios that seems to be doing better with DC movies.
 

BIG J

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,313
About to finish season 1 of flash. How are the next few seasons?
Where can I watch arrow?
 

kswiston

Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,693
Looks like you guys have a new top grosser worldwide on Friday. Aquaman continues to put up impressive overseas numbers. I don't think that passing TDKR is a given, but it isn't off the table either.

I was hoping for the film to succeed, because I want the DC superhero B and C-Tier stuff to have a shot on the big screen. In that regard, audiences deciding that the problem with the DCEU was Batman and Superman, and that all of the others are still interesting enough to spend cash on, is about the best case scenario.
 

MajorGripex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
187
Looks like you guys have a new top grosser worldwide on Friday. Aquaman continues to put up impressive overseas numbers. I don't think that passing TDKR is a given, but it isn't off the table either.

I was hoping for the film to succeed, because I want the DC superhero B and C-Tier stuff to have a shot on the big screen. In that regard, audiences deciding that the problem with the DCEU was Batman and Superman, and that all of the others are still interesting enough to spend cash on, is about the best case scenario.

Cool! If you need an idea for a thread title I got one you are free to use:

Wkd Box Office - 1•4-6•18 - Aquaman keeps splashing. Poppins keeps swimming. Spider and Bee drown.

Or change Poppins to Flopkins if it nose dives.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
BvS isn't meant to be a straight adaption of TDKR. They don't know each other to start with. Bruce gets dreams that Superman is brainwashed by Darkseid in the future. He gets a premonition from Flash. He's tired of beating thugs in Gotham because it doesn't work. He experiences the 9/11 of Metropolis first hand. The film absolutely explores the idea that a war weary Batman wants to rid the world of a demigod. He believes Superman might pose a threat to humanity. Superman is silent throughout the film because this dynamic wouldn't otherwise work. Batman is technically a villain but his reasoning isn't black and white. It's tricky to balance their screentime and development. People argue it's more a Batman film than a Superman film, which I agree, but maybe they really thought audiences would buy the premise. They did not.

Which is why adapting that storyline for that movie didn't work properly. The funny thing is we did get to see his side of the argument and had evidence that his concerns were justified to some degree. Superman being silent invalidates his side of the argument, since he barely has any. He never defending himself in arguments, instead he relies on his opponents dying or trying to kill or intimidate them into giving up. Why should I side with Superman in that movie? Batman and Superman both have viewpoints which are entrenched in black and white ideologies, so much so they flip 100% over a silly scene over their mothers having the same name. Then they're suddenly best friends for life. It can be tricky with screen time and character development, however, when a movie is only interested in examining one side the inevitable result will be the audience siding with that person. Snyder did not think out the arguments or implications thoroughly with that movie, which cost him everything.
 

Vordan

Member
Aug 12, 2018
2,489
Man Ichthy, you read BvS in a way that completely ignores a lot of context.
At the end of the day Snyder wanted to portray a Superman that didn't completely have his shit together, was a fuckup, was divisive, wasn't really forthcoming about his motives, whined a lot, and was shown to be dangerously unstable in the Knightmare. That's fine but Snyder also wanted you to feel really sad when Superman died because he was this great hero who was so inspirational, yadda, yadda, but he utterly failed to convince the general audience of that. Majority of people didn't care that Supes died. Snyder failed to get people invested, so he failed in whatever point he was trying to make.

Cavill has basically fuckall to work with. Supes is more a plot device than a character. His death was one of the worst ideas Snyder had, and only hurt the character.
 

Ninjimbo

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
1,731
At the end of the day Snyder wanted to portray a Superman that didn't completely have his shit together, was a fuckup, was divisive, wasn't really forthcoming about his motives, whined a lot, and was shown to be dangerously unstable in the Knightmare. That's fine but Snyder also wanted you to feel really sad when Superman died because he was this great hero who was so inspirational, yadda, yadda, but he utterly failed to convince the general audience of that. Majority of people didn't care that Supes died. Snyder failed to get people invested, so he failed in whatever point he was trying to make.

Cavill has basically fuckall to work with. Supes is more a plot device than a character. His death was one of the worst ideas Snyder had, and only hurt the character.
Meh, it worked for me. The funeral is so beautiful.
 

Ninjimbo

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
1,731
It works in the UC.

Problem is the theatrical which cut Clark's content. This is what mostly everyone bases the movie on -- and even for some that are aware of this, first impressions are a bitch.
I forget that the theatrical cut Clark's parts. The UC is the only one that exist in my mind. It's a shame that most people saw that version. The UC fleshes out so much stuff.
 

broncobuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,139
I think the death could've been better, but the funeral itself was well done. Little things like characters from MoS at the service. Bruce anonymously paying for it. Paralleling the intro of Bruce's parent's funeral and 'birth' of Batman with this rebirth of Batman.

Mentioned it many times, but still think there should've been a World's Finest/Public Enemies/Trinity movie before Superman's death and lead in to JL. Even as much as I like BvS UC, it dips for me with the post-BvS stuff and Doomsday. And Wonder Woman's intro is awesome, as is her moves against Doomsday, but it would've been stronger to keep her as the mysterious Diana Prince and then have her out as WW in the next one, along with the JL teases.

Anyway, what's done is done.

Damn Fantastic Beasts for delaying Flash...
 

Ashhong

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,574
I think the death was fantastic overall. I was invested in the character so it worked for me but I can see why others wouldn't. When he tells Lois she is his world and then the music swells, hot damn. So good. I felt that death. I felt it like others felt the Snap deaths in IW which I internally laughed at. Could it have been done better? Of course. But I did like what we got.
 

Ashhong

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,574
I'm glad someone agrees.

People praise him just because he smiles a lot. Like, I can't imagine a Superman that would get angry over Martian Manhunter keeping Kryptonite.
My eyes just rolled out the back of my head

It's not dumb, I agree. Granted I'm going by his appearance in Elseworlds. He doesn't feel like Supes at all. Whether I'm comparing to Cavill, JLU, or Reeves. He looks and feels like a cosplayer. It's as generic of a Superman as possible to appease the masses.

Edit: does he still make appearances on Supergirl? I watched him in the early seasons and didn't like him either. The charm doesn't feel genuine. Like..he seems like a kid lol I can't explain it correctly..
 

Tabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,328
lol
The reason I like Tyler is the same reason I like Henry - they're both charming dudes. The difference is that CW Superman has a positive outlook on things and that comes through in most scenes.

That's just down to Synder and the story he was trying to tell. It makes sense, he was still trying to find himself and in JL we saw a glimpse of what Superman should be.

It's not dumb, I agree. Granted I'm going by his appearance in Elseworlds. He doesn't feel like Supes at all. Whether I'm comparing to Cavill, JLU, or Reeves. He looks and feels like a cosplayer. It's as generic of a Superman as possible to appease the masses.

Edit: does he still make appearances on Supergirl? I watched him in the early seasons and didn't like him either. The charm doesn't feel genuine. Like..he seems like a kid lol I can't explain it correctly..

I don't keep up with Supergirl, it got bad. As far as I know, he appeared in the S2 finale brainwashed and fought Supergirl, latest appearance is on Elseworlds where he gave up his mantle to raise a family.

CW Supes got brainwashed twice. S1 and in S2 finale. Only other time he showed up was early S1 where he freaked out over MM having Kryptonite.
 
OP
OP
ody

ody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,116
It's not dumb, I agree. Granted I'm going by his appearance in Elseworlds. He doesn't feel like Supes at all. Whether I'm comparing to Cavill, JLU, or Reeves. He looks and feels like a cosplayer. It's as generic of a Superman as possible to appease the masses.

Edit: does he still make appearances on Supergirl? I watched him in the early seasons and didn't like him either. The charm doesn't feel genuine. Like..he seems like a kid lol I can't explain it correctly..
I don't even know what to say

That's just down to Synder and the story he was trying to tell. It makes sense, he was still trying to find himself and in JL we saw a glimpse of what Superman should be.
Yeah, that's why the audience took a liking to CW Superman. It wasn't a brooding portrayal, it was the light heartedness that a good number of people wanted.

I don't keep up with Supergirl, it got bad. As far as I know, he appeared in the S2 finale brainwashed and fought Supergirl, latest appearance is on Elseworlds where he gave up his mantle to raise a family.

CW Supes got brainwashed twice. S1 and in S2 finale. Only other time he showed up was early S1 where he freaked out over MM having Kryptonite.
CW Supes has only appeared in S2 and the current season (Elseworlds)
 

Ashhong

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,574
I don't even know what to say


Yeah, that's why the audience took a liking to CW Superman. It wasn't a brooding portrayal, it was the light heartedness that a good number of people wanted.


CW Supes has only appeared in S2 and the current season (Elseworlds)
So then I've seen every appearance. He sucks. He's not imposing as Superman should be. I don't know if that's the actor or the way the show is filmed. I just don't feel it. Is the actor short?
 
OP
OP
ody

ody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,116
I doubt his height actually matters here, and I think I've had my fill of this discussion lol
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,524
Like Batman we should rate all live action incarnations of Superman too. While Christopher Reeve was before my time, he looks the most like a younger Kingdom Come Supes which I appreciate. I grew up with Dean Cain so I have a soft spot for him. He's also charismatic as hell. Never watched Smallville. Dude looks like Cillian Murphy lol. As for Henry Cavill, too upbeat. What a comedian.

sup3.png
 

broncobuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,139
All Superman iterations are valid in their own ways, as it was in the comics across 80+ years of runs.

I think we need a Superman Into the Superverse to get it across to people. But somehow I still think the point will go over their heads.
 

Ninjimbo

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
1,731
All Superman iterations are valid in their own ways, as it was in the comics across 80+ years of runs.

I think we need a Superman Into the Superverse to get it across to people. But somehow I still think the point will go over their heads.
Going by how BvS was received, it definitely would. You gotta spoon feed people something safe and familiar if you want to win them over.
 
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