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DC or Marvel - Which one has the better "reference/Captain Ersatz" characters to the other (Such as Squadron Supreme, Lord Havok, etc)

Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,623
(Inspired by that other thread that Slayven made)

So outside the actual crossover events from decades ago, it seems both DC and Marvel have created characters that are very much direct references to characters of their competitor.

From Marvel my understanding this is the Squadron Supreme, though I will admit I actually not familiar with DC's side of things though from what I can gather they do exist, such as the ones that Slayven made a thread about ( Lord Havok, Doctor Diehard, Tracer, Dreamslayer, and Gorgon) though I imagine there is more.

Thus I ask those of you who are more in the know if you can give your thoughts as to which company does these "reference" characters better.

For those that don't get the Captain Ersatz thing, it's a name of a TvTropes:
The character equivalent of a Bland-Name Product.
This character's design is a mix of legal issues and homage. Just as someone who wants to incorporate a Walmart into a story but can't manage the Product Placement might use "Box Mart," a person who wants to write Captain Original, but can't because a rival comic company owns the trademark, will create Captain Ersatz. Sometimes, these characters are used as affectionate Shout Outs to a series or creator that may have inspired them. At other times, they are used as parodies or Take Thats against the original characters they're based on (and possibly the company who owns them).
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finfinfin

The Fallen
Jul 26, 2018
1,371
marvel has The Captain (his name is The Captain)

who doesn't count but is a ☠️☠️☠️☠️load of fun
 
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,901
DC has Earth 8.
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Pop-O-Matic

Pop-O-Matic

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
12,861
The fact that Squadron Supreme are around B/C-list despite being blatant clones of the Distinguished Competition's big characters while said Distinguished Competition pretty much makes a new set of Marvel clones whenever they need them because even they forgot the last ones should tell you everything...
 
TheChuggernaut

TheChuggernaut

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,202
latest


Really liked The Great Society. Was a bit more of a straight take on the Justice League. They were not long for this world :(
 
Cuburger

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
Squadron Supreme did the superhero deconstruction before Watchmen which is pretty notable.

iu


The mini-series predated Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, and has themes that were later explored (and perhaps drew inspiration from) in series like Kingdom Come, Civil War, and The Boys. Pretty interesting for a Justice League pastiche that doesn't have the same sort of name recognition as all the other previously mentioned series.
 
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Bufbaf

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,636
Hamburg, Germany
Easily Squadron Surpreme. They started out as pastiches for a one-joke, but they have legit stories and lore by today. Especially Hyperion is a much more interesting character than any Marvel-To-DC Ersatz.
 
Nakenorm

Nakenorm

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
22,277
Yeah it's Squadron Supreme, no doubt about it.
They've been around far longer than the competition and are still part of big stories today.
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Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
It too often feels like DC send-ups feel the need to remind you on every single panel that the character is, in fact, a joke. Almost like they're afraid if they don't you're actually going to be interested in these characters and want to know more about them.

Most of the Marvel ones feel more like an homage, and in the way of an homage, they aren't afraid to let them take on a life of their own.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
Yeah, Squadron Supreme is clearly bigger and better, having actually gotten their own comics even. Meanwhile, the Marvel ones in DC only get small references in other stories.

Really, DC in this case messed up from the start. Right alongside the Squadron Sinister in the late 60s, DC created the Champions of Angor, which were their first Marvel reference characters. The issue is that while the Squadron Supreme went for really iconic DC characters the Champions of Angor's line up was pretty odd.

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Not-Scarlet Witch, Not-Antman and Not-Thor. No Captain America, Ironman and others. And these were the only ones that existed for decades (alongside a Quick Silver counterpart) which meant when they added more afterwards they were rarely consistent. Meanwhile, Squadron Supreme were making occasional appearances for pseudo-DC vs Marvel clashes in Avengers and even other books like Thor, and got their own mini-series by the 80s already.

The current not-Marvel ones in DC (Retaliators) have been kind of consistent ever since DC established their modern multiverse and probably already have the longest run and biggest number of appearances for any of DC's Marvel counterparts, but even so it feels like the writers just don't like writing them. Machinehead (Ironman) even joined the multiverse Justice League, but yet has been basically mute in every single one of their appearances. The not-Marvel crew also technically was shown to be part of the army of heroes in Death Metal's final battle, but they were never drawn in the main mini-series, and only appeared in a couple of pages for tie-ins and even so also never got any lines.
 
jph139

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,365
Yeah, it's the Squadron. They're actual characters at this point, not just parodies, and have a ton of permutations so you can use them in whatever way you want.

I'll give credit to Morrison for making an Earth-Marvel AND an Earth-Ultimate though.

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Nakenorm

Nakenorm

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
22,277
jph139 said:
Yeah, it's the Squadron. They're actual characters at this point, not just parodies, and have a ton of permutations so you can use them in whatever way you want.

I'll give credit to Morrison for making an Earth-Marvel AND an Earth-Ultimate though.

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Who the hell is the guy with the gauntlet supposed to be?
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Nakenorm said:
It's from a upcoming story where Blade gets trapped in a world where the Avengers never assembled.
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Which is a blatant ripoff of the Squadron Supreme storyline in the Avengers cartoon where Doctor Spectrum used the Reality Gem to create an alternate Earth where the individual members of the Avengers were criminals so that they'd never become a team and the Squadron Supreme could be the heroes instead.

You can even see Thanos only has five of the Infinity Gems in other pictures.
 
Vic_Viper

Vic_Viper

Thanked By SGM
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Oct 25, 2017
29,028
In Donny Cates current Thor run, he kills off the DC universe in the 2nd issue lol.

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Nakenorm

Nakenorm

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
22,277
Winny（๑•̀ㅂ•́）و said:
Which is a blatant ripoff of the Squadron Supreme storyline in the Avengers cartoon where Doctor Spectrum used the Reality Gem to create an alternate Earth where the individual members of the Avengers were criminals so that they'd never become a team and the Squadron Supreme could be the heroes instead.

You can even see Thanos only has five of the Infinity Gems in other pictures.
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I dunno, it's not entirely original but I doubt they choose to rip off a generally disliked cartoon. We know that the heroes do exist in the world, but they're not criminals. They just didn't end up being the heroes they are in 616.
- Ben and Reed works for shield.
- Peter Parker is just a dude working for Bugle.
- Thor never lifted Mjolnir
- Steve Rogers died during ww2
- Tony never got got kidnapped or stuck in a cave
Etc etc.

Oh and Thanos doesn't have any gems, looks like he have 5 of the Mandarins rings instead.
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DJConvoy

DJConvoy

Member
Jan 8, 2021
887
Any variation of the Squadron Supreme is more interesting than any version of the Assemblers of Angor. Even the ones that finally made their way into my beloved JLI always seemed like an afterthought to me. Tying the emotional beats of the end of the series to Silver Sorceress never made sense to me.
 
caliph95

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,154
Pop-O-Matic said:
The fact that Squadron Supreme are around B/C-list despite being blatant clones of the Distinguished Competition's big characters while said Distinguished Competition pretty much makes a new set of Marvel clones whenever they need them because even they forgot the last ones should tell you everything...
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And we're done

Squadron Supreme are actual characters that Marvel will sometimes care enough about to develop or bring back
 
Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
People forget The Imperial Guard is a take on the Legion of Superheroes
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mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,162
Slayven said:
People forget The Imperial Guard is a take on the Legion of Superheroes
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I think around the time of Claremont/Byrne's Dark Phoenix Saga they changed them so they weren't quite as blatantly a rip off of the Legion, and this early incarnation is probably Cockrum having some fun as well with his old designs.
TheDarkKnight said:
My favorite is Planetary's The Four
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I said this in the last thread but yes, this. Also Alan Moore's Supreme, and I guess you can count Miracle Man now that he's owned by Marvel. Note that like usual for comics, the best ones are usually Elseworlds (Squadron Supreme, and even though owned by the same company, Watchmen) or totally bereft from continuity because you usually get interpretations from writers that can unleash their creativity without worrying about adhering to a shared universe.

I'll also add all of the homages in Kurt Busiek's Astro City and the characters introduced in the pre-Planetary Stormwatch run.
 
SamAlbro

SamAlbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,344
Deadpool is a Captain Ersatz of a Captain Ersatz.

Deathstroke is "what if Captain America was a bad guy?" And Deadpool is "what if Deathstroke was a homicidal Bugs Bunny?"
 
Billfisto

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,914
Canada
Cuburger said:
Squadron Supreme did the superhero deconstruction before Watchmen which is pretty notable.

iu


The mini-series predated Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, and has themes that were later explored (and perhaps drew inspiration from) in series like Kingdom Come, Civil War, and The Boys. Pretty interesting for a Justice League pastiche that doesn't have the same sort of name recognition as all the other previously mentioned series.
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I loved this book so much as a kid.

Specifically, the last issue, which I somehow managed to buy all by itself from a quarter bin or something. It was just an issue-long brawl where half the characters die. With no context, it was absolutely mind-blowing.

Going back and reading the whole thing as an adult, it still holds up.
 
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