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Daytona USA 2 - probably Sega’s best racing game of all time
- Thread starter VGEsoterica
- Start date
This is one of the most accurate things I've read all week
As much as I loved Top Skater in the arcade, I'm not sure it works as well without the hardware, same for Sega Super G
(or Alpine Racer)
I never got to play this, I've never even seen it in person.
SCUD Race was amazing though, and I got to play that when it came out. Still bummed out that it never saw a Dreamcast release. There were rumours back then of them working on it, no idea what happened (if those were true).
Also, Sega Rally is the best racing game.
SCUD Race was amazing though, and I got to play that when it came out. Still bummed out that it never saw a Dreamcast release. There were rumours back then of them working on it, no idea what happened (if those were true).
Also, Sega Rally is the best racing game.
I miss SO MUCH pure arcade racing games like Daytona, Outrun 2, Scud Race, Sega Rally and others not made by Sega, of course, like San Francisco Rush 2049. Even if we still have arcade racing games today, they don't have that old 90's vibe, with great (and crazy) track design, cheesy music and addicting gameplay with almost infinite replay value.
Sega GT2002 on the OG Xbox is what got me into more simulator-y racing games, so that's my favorite.
That disc with JSRF as well, damn good stuff.
That disc with JSRF as well, damn good stuff.
VF3TB was a good port, as for Sega Rally 2 I can only speculate. Maybe it was to show off the Windows CE runtime as an option for developers to churn out very quick ports from PC. Whatever their merits, these were very rushed games for the Japanese launch (VF3TB) and for not long after it (Sega Rally 2), standards got much higher after that. I don't think Sega could have afforded to have a narrative of the Dreamcast being underpowered, especially after what happened with the Saturn and its Daytona port, not that it would matter in the end of course!
I probably would have preferred a compromised port of Daytona 2 too but I still would have been left wishing for the real thing. I never replay Sega Rally 2 after all, because of all the missing detail and the yoyo frame rate.
All my knowledge is based on interviews from the time and of the specifications of the hardware.
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the whole Windows CE thing was odd from the start. In theory it made sense...quick ports. But either a) it took too much overhead away from the system to run CE or b) because it was so quick to port people got lazy with it. Hard to say
I don't know if that would have been the narrative if the conversion was put in capable hands. And despite Sega being Sega and those very conflicting ideas (arcade perfect ports but yet rushing others/giving them away to other developers) making a lot of sense in the context of SEGA, I also do remember reading in the german Sega Mazin about planned ports of Scud Race (for the Saturn even) and then later of Scud Race and Daytona 2 for Dreamcast. And I think we also know about according tech demos, so I can only state my sorrow and disappointment once again. ;)
Regarding VF3tb my memory is pretty much the same as stated on Sega Retro:
"Whereas SoulCalibur is considered to have improved during its transition from arcade to Dreamcast, Virtua Fighter 3tb makes noticeable cutbacks in areas, despite being the older and simpler game of the two. This may be attributed to the fact the Dreamcast port was handled by Genki and not in-house by Sega AM2 [...]
In Japan, the situation was much worse, as the Dreamcast version shipped without any form of two-player versus mode in order to hit the Dreamcast console's launch date. As such, of all the early Dreamcast titles, Virtua Fighter 3tb saw perhaps the most drastic update when brought to the West, [...]
While operating at a higher resolution, texture quailty is often worse for Virtua Fighter 3tb on the Dreamcast, and lighting and fog effects also differ between the two versions. Character shadows also do not always render correctly, as evidenced in stages played on uneven surfaces, such as Pai's where the battle takes place on a slanted roof. Some stages have different coloured backgrounds for unknown reasons."
But I do have to admit, that there's a good chance that most of the conversation about VF3tb that I remember was centered around the japanese version.
Yeah the overhead was too much for anything demanding but it did result in quite a lot of games, just not many of the ones we fans remember the Dreamcast for!
Even the Japanese version is fine honestly. It still looks and plays like VF3 but it has a few downgrades that aren't really noticeable while playing, they just become much more visible during the character close-ups in the attract sequence. The different coloured backgrounds (time of day) are because it's the TB version but you can get the old ones by holding down start when you select them (IIRC, it's been a while).
I never really liked Daytona 2 for some reason. I remember when it turned up at the arcade I worked at and I was super excited to play it but I dunno, the tracks, they just didn't seem to excite me. I haven't seen one in the wild for a very long time, but I did hear about one nearby so I'll have to go check it out when local arcades start opening up again.
Scud race really blew me away though, thought the tracks looked and played great.
I was also a bit sad that the Dreamcast never got the conversions I hoped it would get, and that the Saturn ports were always a bit on the crappy side, excepting Sega Rally, which was a pretty nice port!
Scud race really blew me away though, thought the tracks looked and played great.
I was also a bit sad that the Dreamcast never got the conversions I hoped it would get, and that the Saturn ports were always a bit on the crappy side, excepting Sega Rally, which was a pretty nice port!
The Real3D Pro-1000 GPUs in the Model 3 boards could use all of its features on without dropping frames. It could be locked to 60 (or 30, but all Model 3 games were locked at 60) and instead of losing FPS, the hardware and/or API would drop polygons to maintain framerate.
Every Model 3 board had 2x Real3D Pro-1000 GPUs, and the Step 2.0 and 2.1 boards had more pixel fill rate, more VRAM and or ROM and higher clocked PowerPC 603e CPUs.
Daytona USA 2 was amazing.
Another reason Model 3 / R3D Pro-1000 had such awesome performance was from its Mitsubishi 3D-RAM for texture memory
Mitsubishi Graphics Memory Products Power REAL 3D Engine
The Electronic Device Group of Mitsubishi Electronics America, Inc., and REAL 3D(R), a Lockheed Martin Company, jointly announced this week that REAL 3D uses two of Mitsubishi's specialty graphics memory […]
www.hpcwire.com
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The Real3D Pro-1000 GPUs in the Model 3 boards could use all of its features on without dropping frames. It could be locked to 60 (or 30, but all Model 3 games were locked at 60) and instead of losing FPS, the hardware and/or API would drop polygons to maintain framerate.
Every Model 3 board had 2x Real3D Pro-1000 GPUs, and the Step 2.0 and 2.1 boards had more pixel fill rate, more VRAM and or ROM and higher clocked PowerPC 603e CPUs.
Daytona USA 2 was amazing.
Another reason Model 3 / R3D Pro-1000 had such awesome performance was from its Mitsubishi 3D-RAM for texture memory
Mitsubishi Graphics Memory Products Power REAL 3D Engine
The Electronic Device Group of Mitsubishi Electronics America, Inc., and REAL 3D(R), a Lockheed Martin Company, jointly announced this week that REAL 3D uses two of Mitsubishi's specialty graphics memory […]
Model 3 was an interesting platform for sure in regards to how it functioned with no performance penalty depending on what was "turned on". Especially considering the fact it would drop polygons. Similar to the 64 with low poly models at a distance except Model 3 wasn't subbing in models but culling polys on the fly. Honestly it's barely noticeable in play.
Never played or seen the sequel at my local arcades, only the first one was everywhere. Would like to try it if Sega ever releases it on home consoles or Steam.
Yeah a Sega Arcade Classics collection on all platforms would be dope. 1:1 arcade perfect port + online play would be the dream.
We need all those Model 1- 3 system games ported. Many of those are now not playable at all, but with the lack of any arcade racers right now! (and serioustly Forza Horizon and Drive Club like games don't count, they are not "Arcade racers", I don't know how people want to call them.. but they are not arcade ;). ScudRace, Daytona USA, Outrun, etc.. that's ARcade :P).
So I personally would love for SEGA to annouce the porting of their 3D arcade racers.
That's pretty surprising. I know Model 3 was more powerful then Naomi, but I'm still surprised they couldn't get a half decent port up and running.
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I love Outrun but I prefer the "race" aspect of Daytona more. Trying to go from 40th to 1st in a race is always a good time
I personally would argue the original is still the best but you're ultimately talking about which Sega racer is more amazing than the others because they're all fantastic.
But as to the ports thing, yeah I could never understand it myself.
Like... we got Ghost Squad on Wii, but never got Virtua Cop 3 on anything? No Top Skater?
No Scud Race? No Daytona 2? No Lost World?
But as to the ports thing, yeah I could never understand it myself.
Like... we got Ghost Squad on Wii, but never got Virtua Cop 3 on anything? No Top Skater?
No Scud Race? No Daytona 2? No Lost World?
I'd put it a lot higher, but that's just personal preference. Was never a fan of Daytona for some reason and in general, I loved Sega arcade racing games.
Yes ! We need this arcade sega racing collection ! i love them all !
I want to play GRID 2 now
That was a trademark of Sega's arcade racing games, specially Daytona USA games. Every corner of any circuit had a detail or two that made those circuits unforgeteable. For instance, the first Daytona
TSP: That giant solar panel, The Sonic mountain.
DC: The castle, those amazing rock textures in the first turn. The tunnel, the windmills, the grass, the dinosaur fossil, the yates.
SSSG: The bridge, that big building structure thing, the tower, the Jeffrey statue, the urban segment, the stallions, "you can't be satisfied without it", the spacecraft, the freighters...
My man! #teammitsuyoshi
Fuck, I wish I understood Sega. Not even Konami can match Sega in terms of a clueless company sitting on one of gaming's greatest legacies and letting it go almost entirely un (or mis-) used.
I'm allowing myself a brief one week period to actually hope for something like this.
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I do love how many details Sega puts in to every track. Each turn has some dedicated attraction to gawk at. Part of me things this was 100% a diversionary tactic to get us to drive like crap and waste quarters lolol
Sorry OP, have to go with F-Zero GX. It's not only Sega's best racing game, it's the best racing game ever made by a substantial margin imo
A collection with all the Model 3 Sega games.
And OutRun 2006. And Golden Axe: Return of Death Adder.
And OutRun 2006. And Golden Axe: Return of Death Adder.
Sega: "Take another Sega Mega Drive collection! Do you want Sonic 2! Here's Sonic 2 and Sonic Pinball!"
I love me some Daytona but regardless of if we're talking about Daytona 1, 2, 2001 on DC or even Scud Race (it's a Daytona game, come at me) the series as a whole has always felt "lesser" to me when compared to the Sega Rally and Outrun series. I'd say Outrun 2 and Sega Rally Championship are the GOATs when it comes to Sega racing goodness.
Daytona 2 is still fantastic, mind.
Daytona 2 is still fantastic, mind.
They are great though there are some alternative ways to start a drift and/or go around corners faster. Further manipulation of gears and steering which I feel was their way of pulling the feeling or motion of inertia drifts/clutch kicks/etc from the anime. It's kinda jank in concept but it feels great. Not as straightforward as Daytona's brake-tap or 4-1-4 drifting. Braking and countersteer will do it, but ID has much faster ways than this and they've generally changed it from game to game.
Dreamcast got a lot of dirty PC ports like the Tomb Raider games. Perhaps without Windows CE the publisher would never care about doing a Dreamcast version at all so I guess it was something. Most if not all Windows CE games ran like shit.
SR2 coded to the metal would've been better than what we got. No doubt.
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On a side note, I can't stop playing Sega Rally 1. It's quite addicting and the music is awesome.
Arcade racers have been the only thing I've been playing lately. I recently added a slew of 'em to my LaunchBox collection, with artwork and everything.
It really is cool to have all these arcade racers at my fingertips courtesy of LaunchBox. To go from Daytona USA, to Sega Rally, to Ridge Racer, to Scud Race, to GRID 2, to Gran Tursimo 1, to OutRun 2, to Pole Position....all within just a few clicks, is a luxury I never thought I'd have. God bless emulation! :)
Oh and I ever show you guys my racing rig?
Arcade racers have been the only thing I've been playing lately. I recently added a slew of 'em to my LaunchBox collection, with artwork and everything.
It really is cool to have all these arcade racers at my fingertips courtesy of LaunchBox. To go from Daytona USA, to Sega Rally, to Ridge Racer, to Scud Race, to GRID 2, to Gran Tursimo 1, to OutRun 2, to Pole Position....all within just a few clicks, is a luxury I never thought I'd have. God bless emulation! :)
Oh and I ever show you guys my racing rig?
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On a side note, I can't stop playing Sega Rally 1. It's quite addicting and the music is awesome.
Arcade racers have been the only thing I've been playing lately. I recently added a slew of 'em to my LaunchBox collection, with artwork and everything.
It really is cool to have all these arcade racers at my fingertips courtesy of LaunchBox. To go from Daytona USA, to Sega Rally, to Ridge Racer, to Scud Race, to GRID 2, to Gran Tursimo 1, to OutRun 2, to Pole Position....all within just a few clicks, is a luxury I never thought I'd have. God bless emulation! :)
Oh and I ever show you guys my racing rig?
hahaha you clearly aren't messing around. You should see my arcade pcb driving setup. I use a flight stick opposed to a wheel 😂
Damn that so cool. Congrats man. What emulator are you using to play Daytona2/Sega Rally/Outrun2?On a side note, I can't stop playing Sega Rally 1. It's quite addicting and the music is awesome.
Arcade racers have been the only thing I've been playing lately. I recently added a slew of 'em to my LaunchBox collection, with artwork and everything.
It really is cool to have all these arcade racers at my fingertips courtesy of LaunchBox. To go from Daytona USA, to Sega Rally, to Ridge Racer, to Scud Race, to GRID 2, to Gran Tursimo 1, to OutRun 2, to Pole Position....all within just a few clicks, is a luxury I never thought I'd have. God bless emulation! :)
Oh and I ever show you guys my racing rig?
Daytona USA 2 articles.
EGM
EDGE UK
Next Generation
CVG
Sega Saturn Magazine - UK
Dreamcast Magazine - Japan (on Daytona USA 2 Power Edition)
EGM
EDGE UK
Next Generation
CVG
Sega Saturn Magazine - UK
Dreamcast Magazine - Japan (on Daytona USA 2 Power Edition)
For model 2 arcade: http://nebula.emulatronia.com/
For model 3:
Supermodel - Emulation General Wiki
emulation.gametechwiki.com
Both have force feedback support for racing wheels and surround sound. Although for model 3 it takes a bit of digging in the official forum to get the current version.
Virtua Striker 2 ver 2000 was a Naomi game.
But Model 3 games on DC are generally good enough. VF3 was the very first and obviously rushed DC game, but I think the western version doesn't differ that much. Its really close (I played both Vanilla in the arcade and TB on DC a lot). VF3 mostly failed because it was an old game by then and Soul Calibur rendered it obsolete for many. Still played it tons. VF3 with arcade stick felt incredibly good. One friend of mine was luckily into it too.
Bass Fishing, VO:OT (pretty sure this is a model 3 port, and the Naomi version came afterward), Fighting Vipers 2 are very close too. FV2, again a great overlooked fighter when you had a stick. Never released in USA for some reason.
The outlier is SR2 and as widely known its a Windows CE game. Its worse and disappointing, but I still played the JP version loads. Looking at the shoddy framerates in most WinCE ports, I think we could've had a locked 60fps version when coded to the metal. Probably with some worse details and lighting than the arcade as that was some next level shit on Model 3 not even seen on DC.
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Looking at these detailed specifications of Model 3 Step 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 and 2.1, it becomes obvious that the Step 2.0 and 2.1 boards were far beyond Dreamcast in many ways.
segaretro.org
Sega Model 3 - Sega Retro
segaretro.org
So if i'm reading correctly the step 2.0 boasted 3 Gigaflops?
Thats 2 Dreamcasts.
I mean I always found Model 3 to be more impressive than DC and Naomi, still, I thought DoA2 and HotD2 were better looking than any Model 3 game and Crazy Taxi looked better than Harley Davidson but looking back on those i'm not sure. I play them a lot nowadays, and the lighting in SR2 and Daytona 2 is beyond anything on DC. Also the particles and dust effects. Not to mention all games run at a locked 60fps without issue (its actually a bit lower but you get the idea).
I guess that in terms of cost the Naomi was very impressive. It could match Model 3 on a far more efficient way and allowed for a lot of genres, even full 2D.
Thats 2 Dreamcasts.
I mean I always found Model 3 to be more impressive than DC and Naomi, still, I thought DoA2 and HotD2 were better looking than any Model 3 game and Crazy Taxi looked better than Harley Davidson but looking back on those i'm not sure. I play them a lot nowadays, and the lighting in SR2 and Daytona 2 is beyond anything on DC. Also the particles and dust effects. Not to mention all games run at a locked 60fps without issue (its actually a bit lower but you get the idea).
I guess that in terms of cost the Naomi was very impressive. It could match Model 3 on a far more efficient way and allowed for a lot of genres, even full 2D.
For the Sega Rally fans. EDGE preview and interview on Sega Rally 2.
EDGE on the Dreamcast version.
EDGE on the Dreamcast version.
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I should really play the older Sega Rally games. I bought the Japanese PS2 releases last year but would need to dig out the right PS2 to play it; are the PS2 conversions worth it?
I don't remember Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast looking this bad but damn. It's almost Model 2 vs Saturn differences here. I enjoyed a lot 10 years Challenge though
Also, Ferrari 355 Challenge and Daytona 2001 have graphics at least on par with Model 3 racers I think
Also, Ferrari 355 Challenge and Daytona 2001 have graphics at least on par with Model 3 racers I think
Add to that the fact that SR2 DC was 30fps.
The later revisions of Model 3 are crazy stuff, way way more powerful than the DC, but few games take advantage of it. But those that do, like Daytona 2, push so many more polygons and effects than any DC game that it's not even funny. I understand people not believing this, probably because they haven't seen games from both systems side to side in maybe 20 years. Put Daytona 2 with Daytona 2001 side to side on emulators and you'll notice the difference immediately. Only GC/Xbox were on par with that, the graphics of F-Zero actually have an uncanny resemblance to Daytona's to me. At least, if they removed the logos and Sega never appeared on screen, I'd still be able to tell it is a Sega game right away.
Yeah, you are right. Model 3 is such a beast
Also there's nothing like expert circuit on Dayotna 2 on Dreamcast.
Also Outrun 2 Xbox vs Daytona 2 Model 3 comparison