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The Pharmercy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,040
Deus Ex, NieR Automata etc.

They spring to mind about games I've played & loved that do this sort of thing.

I feel like at home he has a note that says "Nietzsche. Freud. Cage"
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,961
South Carolina
We, as a people, are slowly coming to the realization that hucksters weave grandiose tales about their output and themselves and we are incredibly late to that.
 
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Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,539
A few mainstream games with more "complex themes" and "subtle emotions" than anything Cage has ever written:

God of War
Red Dead Redemption 2
Nier Automata
Undertale
What Remains of Edith Finch
Hellblade
Inside
Last of Us
The Missing
FAR: Lone Sails

I could go on. David Cage's writing is terrible and wouldn't even be a good example if there actually WAS a lack of mature games tackling complex themes. Even if that were true, his games would just be another example for exactly that. But it's not. We are waaay past every AAA game being written like stupid spectacle shooters. But not only does he keeps propping himself up as a once in a lifetime visionary, he ALSO keeps on putting down everyone else in the industry who actually does important work, tackling new themes.

And I was only concetrating on relatively big games from the last few years here, with a few exceptions. If you look at Indie Games at itch.io there is a huuge, huge number of games that do things you have never seen before. So the thing with Cage is, he doesn't only have a God Complex, he also constantly puts down everyone else's work. It's fucking tiring.

David Cage is the Zack Snyder of the video game industry, only that in the video game industry, way more people are just blindly drinking the cool aid instead of calling him out on his bullshit. He's the successful version of that guy who made YIIK.
 

riverfr0zen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,164
Manhattan, New York
Play some Nier Automata, Mr Cage. It will blow your small world. Makes Detroit Become Human look like a kids rendition of Romeos and Juliets.

Just not seeing the Nier comparisons. Nier is high-fantasy, high-action sci-fi very far removed from contemporary reality and with minimal "discussion" around its thematic content matter. Detroit at least attempts to explore topics that are closer to our daily lives. What am I missing?
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,539
I don't like the guy, but the "Could a video game do this?" is saying, "We wanted to do those things and weren't sure if we could do it on our video game." Not "We did it and no one else has."

Again, I don't like the dude and it's a little awkwardly phrased, but that tweet is being misconstrued.

No, he literally says exactly what you say he isn't here:



He says that Detroit showed him that this was possible. Not that he wasn't sure if he was also able to pull it off. That this very game proved to him that video games could do this, period.
 
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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Quantic Dream games are more interesting to see being made than playing.
There's one goddamn good thing about Heavy Rain and it a fucking DLC because he couldn't make a full game that was as meaningful as that short DLC.
He has no game literacy at all and if he was making anything but games he would have been forgotten for the hack writer he is.
Then add the casual racism and his management style and I have no idea why he's considered anything but a footnote in this industry.
 

DmckPower

Member
Feb 1, 2018
2,266
Play some Nier Automata, Mr Cage. It will blow your small world. Makes Detroit Become Human look like a kids rendition of Romeos and Juliets.

NieR:A is a game too far up its own ass and is far from an original or important work that actually brings games closer to daily human struggles. Its a bunch of loosely tied together abstract shlock that we've seen countless times.

Instead of attacking Cage relentlessly ,how about acknowledging that ,yes, his Cage IS one of the developers to tackle these issues head on as the main focus of his games.he is basically the only AAA dev where violence is not the main mode of gameplay.

His approach is not perfect but neither is Yoko Taro's approach. Taro's games are highly problematic too.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
He founded the company.
The CEO part is ok if you ask me.
If he can manage a team and budgets and isn't horrible in a public setting who cares.
But main writer? His output is worse than highschoolers, literally anyone who write for a living would compare advantageously to this guy.
Like even schlock books made to pass the time in the train are much better than this.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
Instead of attacking Cage relentlessly ,how about acknowledging that ,yes, his Cage IS one of the developers to tackle these issues head on as the main focus of his games.he is basically the only AAA dev where violence is not the main mode of gameplay.
No?

He's really, really not. Not even close.

Detroit is a pretty damn violent game. Like, watching prostitutes get murdered/killing them yourself violent. Shooting unarmed and surrendering police officers violent. There's multiple qte sequences with Connor alone where he's killing people.

Compared to that, you've got an endless stream of non-violent triple A games. Not just "violence is not the main mode of gameplay" either, but outright no violence. For starters you're completely omitting all sports and racing games for god knows what reason.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,309
A few mainstream games with more "complex themes" and "subtle emotions" than anything Cage has ever written:

God of War
Red Dead Redemption 2
Nier Automata
Undertale
What Remains of Edith Finch
Hellblade
Inside
Last of Us
The Missing
FAR: Lone Sails

I could go on. David Cage's writing is terrible and wouldn't even be a good example if there actually WAS a lack of mature games tackling complex themes. Even if that were true, his games would just be another example for exactly that. But it's not. We are waaay past every AAA game being written like stupid spectacle shooters. But not only does he keeps propping himself up as a once in a lifetime visionary, he ALSO keeps on putting down everyone else in the industry who actually does important work, tackling new themes.
Now that this guy isn't a PlayStation exclusive, he won't have as many blind defenders anymore.
And there's the tea..
Iz5k.gif



It's good that DC has less of a defense force here after literally four games in a row that have racist stereotypes, tone deaf stories and imagery, and creepy sexism. Dude's absolutely a hack.
 
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AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
lol at the hate boner for David Cage on era. The guy lacks a subtle touch and is a bit of an obnoxious dude but it doesnt mean his game isnt doing things 99% of the games dont even bother with.

Some thoughts on this thread:

- You can literally play the entire game without killing anyone as Marcus if you choose the pacifist route. I dont remember killing anyone as the chick and the robot guy either.
- I skimmed three pages and saw a total of one post that listed a total of 3 games that dealt with subjects David Cage has taken credit for dealing with.
- The domestic violence sequences in Detroit were unlike anything ive played in games before. I never finished Silent Hill 2 but i dont remember anything so visercal like a father physically and verablly abusing his child.
- The holocaust sequence in Detroit again is unlike anything ive seen before. The way you are stripped naked and cattled around is very evocative of the holocaust ON PURPOSE. i didnt see anything wrong with them using history to tell a story. it wasnt poorly done.
- I have never seen an overweight character written and acted so well in video games before. The fact that she was black and a woman pretty much made it a unicorn as far as i am concerned. the fact that she saves the day multiple times makes it even better. you dont need a hot 25 year old ninja to help save the day. what a crazy idea for video games!
- there are dozens of scenes in the game that are simply about sitting next to your partner, your friends and your little daughter and just talking to them about your life, your fears and your goals. i would love to play games that do this. i really would. until dawn is the only game that comes close and its pretty much a horror movie with very little downtime.

i didnt much care for Beyond, but Heavy Rain and Detroit were amazing games with dozens upon dozens of scenarios you dont see in even the best storytelling games from Naughty Dog and Bioware. not all of them were done with the most defest of touches but he gets more right than wrong.
 

Mezoly

Jimbo Replacement
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,401
User Banned (3 Days): Drive-by trolling and antagonizing other members
How is a harmless clumsily written tweet turned into an inflammatory thread I would never know.

Era embarrasses itself on an hourly basis...
 

NoUse4AName

Banned
Feb 5, 2019
385
Maybe my English isn't good enough or something I'm missing...because honestly, I can't see how his tweet fits with the thread title or the OP.

looks like people a just looking for a reason to attack the guy because everything in the op looks misleading.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,309
There's literally multiple AC games about these topics and in those the overall good ending message is that everything would be all fine and dandy if minorities fought back as little and peacefully as possible and sing a song to drive public opinion high enough for racism to be over...
 

Aldo

Member
Mar 19, 2019
1,716
I really dislike the word "pretentious", but it fits pretty well with whatever David Cage is doing. If his games are considered art, then I'm happy to just play with toys, thank you.
 

carlsojo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
33,769
San Francisco
lol at the hate boner for David Cage on era. The guy lacks a subtle touch and is a bit of an obnoxious dude but it doesnt mean his game isnt doing things 99% of the games dont even bother with.

Some thoughts on this thread:

- You can literally play the entire game without killing anyone as Marcus if you choose the pacifist route. I dont remember killing anyone as the chick and the robot guy either.
- I skimmed three pages and saw a total of one post that listed a total of 3 games that dealt with subjects David Cage has taken credit for dealing with.
- The domestic violence sequences in Detroit were unlike anything ive played in games before. I never finished Silent Hill 2 but i dont remember anything so visercal like a father physically and verablly abusing his child.
- The holocaust sequence in Detroit again is unlike anything ive seen before. The way you are stripped naked and cattled around is very evocative of the holocaust ON PURPOSE. i didnt see anything wrong with them using history to tell a story. it wasnt poorly done.
- I have never seen an overweight character written and acted so well in video games before. The fact that she was black and a woman pretty much made it a unicorn as far as i am concerned. the fact that she saves the day multiple times makes it even better. you dont need a hot 25 year old ninja to help save the day. what a crazy idea for video games!
- there are dozens of scenes in the game that are simply about sitting next to your partner, your friends and your little daughter and just talking to them about your life, your fears and your goals. i would love to play games that do this. i really would. until dawn is the only game that comes close and its pretty much a horror movie with very little downtime.

i didnt much care for Beyond, but Heavy Rain and Detroit were amazing games with dozens upon dozens of scenarios you dont see in even the best storytelling games from Naughty Dog and Bioware. not all of them were done with the most defest of touches but he gets more right than wrong.

Excellent summary. The hate-force for DC on Era is astounding.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
lol at the hate boner for David Cage on era. The guy lacks a subtle touch and is a bit of an obnoxious dude but it doesnt mean his game isnt doing things 99% of the games dont even bother with.

Some thoughts on this thread:

- You can literally play the entire game without killing anyone as Marcus if you choose the pacifist route. I dont remember killing anyone as the chick and the robot guy either.
- I skimmed three pages and saw a total of one post that listed a total of 3 games that dealt with subjects David Cage has taken credit for dealing with.
- The domestic violence sequences in Detroit were unlike anything ive played in games before. I never finished Silent Hill 2 but i dont remember anything so visercal like a father physically and verablly abusing his child.
- The holocaust sequence in Detroit again is unlike anything ive seen before. The way you are stripped naked and cattled around is very evocative of the holocaust ON PURPOSE. i didnt see anything wrong with them using history to tell a story. it wasnt poorly done.
- I have never seen an overweight character written and acted so well in video games before. The fact that she was black and a woman pretty much made it a unicorn as far as i am concerned. the fact that she saves the day multiple times makes it even better. you dont need a hot 25 year old ninja to help save the day. what a crazy idea for video games!
- there are dozens of scenes in the game that are simply about sitting next to your partner, your friends and your little daughter and just talking to them about your life, your fears and your goals. i would love to play games that do this. i really would. until dawn is the only game that comes close and its pretty much a horror movie with very little downtime.

i didnt much care for Beyond, but Heavy Rain and Detroit were amazing games with dozens upon dozens of scenarios you dont see in even the best storytelling games from Naughty Dog and Bioware. not all of them were done with the most defest of touches but he gets more right than wrong.
Never played any of his other games, but I agree with you on Detroit.

The hate for this guy is kinda weird unless I'm missing something. The game was pretty cool.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
How is a harmless clumsily written tweet turned into an inflammatory thread I would never know.

Era embarrasses itself on an hourly basis...
Yeah... I mean, Cage has plenty of shortcomings, but I feel like too many people project their misgivings onto him to a crazy degree.

... Doesn't mean there aren't BETTER games or examples of what he's advocating, but it's not like he's actively promoting heinous viewpoints or unethical opinions.

I'll still roll my eyes at certain parts of his games, but I don't dislike the guy for trying.
 

Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
Detroit is a masterpiece. Sorry!

Kara's whole story is something I HAVE NEVER experienced in another game, and I have played plenty. The tension, the drama, the tragedy. Just amazing.
 

Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
Nier Automata is not more mature than Detroit in any way or form by the way. I think people using these lists haven't played Detroit.

Nier WISHES to reach the emotional highs of Detroit. And I love Nier A.
 

Dee Dee

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,868
That is a weird point of view, it's like saying a man cannot write woman protagonists just because he's not one.

I agree with that, you can totally write a story from a woman's perspective as a man, but for that you should research, have empathy, and get that shit right, otherwise people WILL come for - just like people came for David Cage in this case.

The backlash was about how he handles complex subjects with the subtlety and nuance of a jackhammer, not the content itself.

For what it's worth, the racial allegories were the most mishandled imo. Detroit was a significant improvement over some of his past writing, but it still wasn't anything remarkable to me.

Absolutely. This.

The story was soooo badly told, I still can't. Like, they gave the androids a little triangle at the front like a David's star and gave them a ribbon on the arm.
They let them stand in the back of the bus.
They had literal concentration camps.

The humans that mistreated the androids where so comically evil. And the good androids were so absolutely saintly and victimised.

This was not a metaphor, he just pasted the most extreme things he could think off together to make a point. And it really didn't come together. It was a hack job.
"Heavy handed" doesn't even begin to describe it.

Not a huge fan of David Cage but Detroit is in my opinion the best choice and consequence based game this generation if not of all time. Great game and worth a play through especially since now since it's only $20.

Ouf. Someone give this person some game suggestions.
Like, probably even The Walking Dead is a better written choice based game than this was. And it's also a lot about humanity and what it means to save lives.

Instead of attacking Cage relentlessly ,how about acknowledging that ,yes, his Cage IS one of the developers to tackle these issues head on as the main focus of his games.he is basically the only AAA dev where violence is not the main mode of gameplay.

The only AAA Dev, because Nintendo now no longer exists apparently.
And even if you meant this more as a AAA Dev that tackles issues of racism and humanism, then a lot of JRPGs also tackle these issues - probably about as haphazardly as Cage does, just a lot lighter on the obvious imagery, lol.
But then again, Persona had you literally fight Hitler once, so there's that.
 

Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
I agree with that, you can totally write a story from a woman's perspective as a man, but for that you should research, have empathy, and get that shit right, otherwise people WILL come for - just like people came for David Cage in this case.



Absolutely. This.

The story was soooo badly told, I still can't. Like, they gave the androids a little triangle at the front like a David's star and gave them a ribbon on the arm.
They let them stand in the back of the bus.
They had literal concentration camps.

The humans that mistreated the androids where so comically evil. And the good androids were so absolutely saintly and victimised.

This was not a metaphor, he just pasted the most extreme things he could think off together to make a point. And it really didn't come together. It was a hack job.
"Heavy handed" doesn't even begin to describe it.



Ouf. Someone give this person some game suggestions.
Like, probably even The Walking Dead is a better written choice based game than this was. And it's also a lot about humanity and what it means to save lives.



The only AAA Dev, because Nintendo now no longer exists apparently.
And even if you meant this more as a AAA Dev that tackles issues of racism and humanism, then a lot of JRPGs also tackle these issues - probably about as haphazardly as Cage does, just a lot lighter on the obvious imagery, lol.
But then again, Persona had you literally fight Hitler once, so there's that.

Did we play the same game? How are the choices Kara had to made in order to survive "absolutely" saintly, for instance? Did you really play the game? People kill each other in real life because they have a different color of skin, do you think they wouldn't be sadistic asshole with robots, like really?



Nier touches complex theoretical points but it never goes deep with complex emotions. Not even comparable. Plus the animu tropes.
 
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Adamska

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,042
OP must have a chip on his shoulder against Cage because that tweet in no way implies Detroit is some kind of pioneering achievement for any theme. It just says that these themes are not usual in games.
 

Dee Dee

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,868
Did you play Detroit? Do you have an example of a game that touches on the constant anguish of immigration the way this game does? Please guide me towards them, I would love to play such games.

https://www.theverge.com/2013/5/14/4329676/papers-please-a-game-about-an-immigration-inspector

https://www.polygon.com/reviews/2019/1/9/18174460/bury-me-my-love-review-nintendo-switch-pc

https://www.nottonightgame.com/

I felt these were all very poignant, sometimes humorous, sometimes devastating.
There's a bit less on the side of domestic violence or abuse, but maybe someone else can point you towards other examples.

Did we play the same game? How are the choices Kara had to made in order to survive "absolutely" saintly, for instance? Did you really play the game?

She is shown as absolutely victimized and abused, while her owner is shown without any redeeming qualities (you can learn later that he drove away his wife and kid already, and that is somehow supposed to make him a more complex character, I guess).
Except maybe for stealing some clothes, she only ever harms people in self defense or to save the girl. Did I miss any choices where she goes out of her way to harm people that don't have it out for her in the first place? It's possible, I guess. I didn't ever feel like I had a choice to play her as spiteful or lusting for revenge, which is how you could interpret Marcus' choices.
I think the thing with the ticket at the end is an easy choice, since the family with the kid will be fine, there's no harm for them since they are human - and again, her choice is made to save her ... daughter in a way, never out of any bad feelings.

You even get a chance to kinda "forgive" her awful master for being an ass. That is saintly in my book.
 
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Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
https://www.theverge.com/2013/5/14/4329676/papers-please-a-game-about-an-immigration-inspector

https://www.polygon.com/reviews/2019/1/9/18174460/bury-me-my-love-review-nintendo-switch-pc

https://www.nottonightgame.com/

I felt these were all very poignant, sometimes humorous, sometimes devastating.
There's a bit less on the side of domestic violence or abuse, but maybe someone else can point you towards other examples.

Unironically thank you for this. Had no idea about Bury Me My Love, will buy it.
 

Rogote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
Wow. Didn't really get all that from that tweet. Cage has done enough already to have fair critique against him, you don't need to try to wrangle and spin shit. Cage may be a hack, but that is a damn forced spin on that particular tweet.