DARQ Dev: Why I turned down exclusivity deal from the Epic Store

[BabyMurloc]

The sad thing IMO is that Epic still hasn't added any customer value to their storefront (eg. achievements or social tools), but seem to rely entirely on poaching exclusives. Thus the games that they do get are lesser releases than they would be otherwise.

 

[¡ B 0 0 P !]

So... is this game from a known developer?

Because in the future why would ANYONE now want to do business with someone who will bad mouth their potential business partners for a cheap sale bump?

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He never trashed Epic in his blog post. If providing evidence of Epic's exclusivity tactics is "bad mouthing" them than maybe Epic should consider changing their tactics?

Epic could allow any and all games that release on the EGS to be able to release on Steam and other stores.

 

[Deleted member 45414]

He wouldn't be siding with them. He would be siding with this particular developer that made a risky decision and with customers that want PC gaming to remain free of bad business practices.

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I can't blame him if it's hard to see that angle from his perspective, the points against EGS isn't exactly clear cut and people are pushing all kinds of random arguments to prove their case and they ultimately end up hurting any case that can be made it when they drift off into conspiracy thinking and harassment of developers)

 

[Lothars]

I can't blame him if it's hard to see that angle from his perspective, the points against EGS isn't exactly clear cut and people are pushing all kinds of random arguments to prove their case and they ultimately end up hurting any case that can be made it when they drift off into conspiracy thinking and harassment of developers)

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They are absolutely clear cut just because he doesn't want to hear them or is willing to call out developers because they don't want to sign with epic doesn't make his stance any better. I bet if the dev signed the agreement he would be praising them instead of what he's doing now.

 

[thepenguin55]

I'm not even inherently opposed to Epic locking down exclusives but between how they've gone about locking down said exclusives and how slow they've been with adding/updating now standard store/launcher features I've had a hard time justifying buying anything via EGS (and thus far I haven't bought anything through them despite them having a number of games I want to play).

 

[Deleted member 41651]

 

[Alexandros]

I can't blame him if it's hard to see that angle from his perspective, the points against EGS isn't exactly clear cut and people are pushing all kinds of random arguments to prove their case and they ultimately end up hurting any case that can be made it when they drift off into conspiracy thinking and harassment of developers)

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I think that many people have made sufficiently strong cases for why Epic's business strategy is bad for customers and PC gaming in general.

 

[ShapeDePapa]

Do you want to get harassed/doxxed/have to change your phone number/deal with shit online for the next year? Sign an exclusive deal with us!

He did the right thing I think. You don't announce a release dat on Steam and change store 2 days later. That would be dumb.

 

[Deleted member 3010]

Just cutting in here to say, lay off Jason, he's got hot takes for days, but if you can't understand why he might choose to side against "gamers", you need to consider the amount of, what I assume is constant, harassment him and his colleagues face from "gamers".

If I had to contend with that on the daily, I'd be hard pressed to see the good in siding with the people who harass me.

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This does not constitute a valid point to me.

Taking this side of the debate because a part of the two sides harrassed him and/or his colleagues, that doesn't make him right.

I mean, sure, fuck people who went through lenghts on harassment campaigns. Same goes for peeps who harrass devs that go with EGS. I absolutely agree that this behavior is unacceptable. However, it doesn't make his stance on the whole EGS deal more valid to me, nor does this make his attack toward this dev as a martyr for refusing to accept EGS's deal valid either.

Having a bad experience with a percentage of X demographic shouldn't poison the well for everything and everyone related to it.

 

[Sidebuster]

I'm still unable to stop thinking about Epic's timing. They contacted this dev right after the game's release date was announced specifically mentioning that it would be on Steam. I know they want games and they definitely want the heavy hitters that will make people come to them, but this timing makes it seem like they really want the drama and controversy. They must know that this would mean that the harassment that for some terrible reason comes with any EGS exclusivity deal would be explosive if this dev chose to take the deal right after that announcement. I don't get it. It gives me chills, really bad ones.


I know what this means but reading it still creates some kind of unpleasant reaction for a second, haha.

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If only we had a journalist that could use their resources and means to find out if it's more than a coincidence. Then publish the truth. Not likely in the game industry.

 

[GhostTrick]

I can't blame him if it's hard to see that angle from his perspective, the points against EGS isn't exactly clear cut and people are pushing all kinds of random arguments to prove their case and they ultimately end up hurting any case that can be made it when they drift off into conspiracy thinking and harassment of developers)

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I think that higher average prices across the board, artificial exclusivity, crowdfunded broken promises and featureset 10 years late are pretty clear cut points.

 

[AlexFlame116]

I'm vastly disappointed in Jason, Mat and other news outlets who praise and defend devs who choose the EGS and Epic in general, but then mock Valve and call devs who DON'T choose EGS, "martyrs" or something.

What's also frustrating is seeing all the people who have continually defended the EGS in this forum by calling those against EGS entitled gamers who look for anything to discredit the dev or to tell the dev off for choosing that store and saying they have an agenda and are "Gamers(TM)", are now doing the exact same thing here against the devs. Looking for numbers, tut-tutting this dev, and saying that he has an agenda against the EGS.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

I'm vastly disappointed in Jason, Mat and other news outlets who praise and defend devs who choose the EGS and Epic in general, but then mock Valve and call devs who DON'T choose EGS, "martyrs" or something.

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Seems perfectly in line with their past behavior, frankly.

 

[AlexFlame116]

Seems perfectly in line with their past behavior, frankly.

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I know. I'm just even more disappointed that they keep digging the hole deeper.

 

[Deleted member 45414]

They are absolutely clear cut just because he doesn't want to hear them or is willing to call out developers because they don't want to sign with epic doesn't make his stance any better. I bet if the dev signed the agreement he would be praising them instead of what he's doing now.

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I think that many people have made sufficiently strong cases for why Epic's business strategy is bad for customers and PC gaming in general.

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A lot of people have made a lot of different cases for why EGS is bad, but I feel like it's a million little cuts. No one argument has been strong enough to convince people who don't care about the same things as us to suddenly start giving a damn.

And then you have the people who harass devs and veer into conspiracies which I pointed out in my previous post. When that shit happens, it takes away from any legitimacy other arguments might have.

 

[Cecil]

I'm vastly disappointed in Jason, Mat and other news outlets who praise and defend devs who choose the EGS and Epic in general, but then mock Valve and call devs who DON'T choose EGS, "martyrs" or something.

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Yep, it's a shit take from Jason, and he deserves to be called out for it.

 

[Dandy]

Yeah, they modified them a full year before EGS came out, and to comply with GDPR. So weird.

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The plot thickens!

 

[Lothars]

A lot of people have made a lot of different cases for why EGS is bad, but I feel like it's a million little cuts. No one argument has been strong enough to convince people who don't care about the same things as us to suddenly start giving a damn.

And then you have the people who harass devs and veer into conspiracies which I pointed out in my previous post. When that shit happens, it takes away from any legitimacy other arguments might have.

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It's never going to convince them anyway. The reasons and arguments are clear cut but if they don't want to hear them than nothing is going to change their mind.

 

[Cipherr]

I hate this change to the ignore system where I can still see their posts quoted

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This, fix it back to the system where it does NOT DISPLAY "Someone you ignored posted here". I dont need to see that.

As soon as one Dev goes against the grain and doesn't take Epics money some people's true colours come out eh 😂. Never expected the guy to be called scummy .

Anyway I respect the dudes decision and commend it. He made a commitment and he's keeping it. I hope the steam and gig communities support him as I will be.

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Yep, exactly. Whats funny is I saw it coming last night. This thread was made and I knew by the next day the same posters who had no problem with the other devs speaking out about taking the money and running would have a problem with this guy.

Now its a problem.

Like, NONE of you are slick, this is transparent as hell and isn't fooling anyone. Not one person is buying it.

 

[ShinUltramanJ]

A lot of people have made a lot of different cases for why EGS is bad, but I feel like it's a million little cuts. No one argument has been strong enough to convince people who don't care about the same things as us to suddenly start giving a damn.

And then you have the people who harass devs and veer into conspiracies which I pointed out in my previous post. When that shit happens, it takes away from any legitimacy other arguments might have.

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The only developer getting harassed in this topic is the one that didn't accept Epic's ultimatum.

Not only that but the developer's decision is being spun into a conspiracy where it's all done for publicity. From journalist's no less!

 

[GhostTrick]

A lot of people have made a lot of different cases for why EGS is bad, but I feel like it's a million little cuts. No one argument has been strong enough to convince people who don't care about the same things as us to suddenly start giving a damn.

And then you have the people who harass devs and veer into conspiracies which I pointed out in my previous post. When that shit happens, it takes away from any legitimacy other arguments might have.

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Sorry but that argument doesn't work. Otherwise that'd mean any big corporation is immune to criticism. That means there's no way we should ever criticize McDonald because their employees suffers daily harassement, either verbal, emotional and even physical from employees and that criticism of McDonald means it legitimize the harassement of their employees. You can swap McDonald for any big corporation offering services.

 

[Tatsu91]

So... is this game from a known developer?

Because in the future why would ANYONE now want to do business with someone who will bad mouth their potential business partners for a cheap sale bump?

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To be fair he did not trash them. it is everyone who posts in and shares it trashing them. Which i feel is people just looking for excuses but i digress he did not say anything subjective when it came to epic really only objective facts.

 

[Alexandros]

A lot of people have made a lot of different cases for why EGS is bad, but I feel like it's a million little cuts. No one argument has been strong enough to convince people who don't care about the same things as us to suddenly start giving a damn.

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I don't believe it is necessary to convince anyone really. It's true that the mainstream largely doesn't care about exclusivity deals or lootboxes or other bad business practices but the mainstream generally buys very few games each year. Epic wants a cut of the digital distribution pie and to do that they will need to win over the core gaming audience that buys a lot of different titles each year. That audience is energized against Epic and quite strongly opposed to these exclusivity deals.

 

[ShutterMunster]

What's so hard to understand that exclusive deals such as this as, for now, led to an average price increase of some games, up to 25% ?

What's so hard to understand that people in 2019 came to expect a subset of features to be standard to their experience ?

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EGS notices the game via trailer, sends the guy an offer to buy him out days later that doesn't allow for any other release avenues. You don't see how that's controversial?

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You are never going to convince me that competition in the marketplace is a bad thing.

You are never going to convince me to view Valve as the "good guys."

You are never going to convince me that the vitriolic responses to developers who choose to play ball and EPIC employees are within reason.

This is all ridiculous. Exclusive deals are commonplace in this industry and having to download a different launcher is a nothingburger in comparison to having to pay $400-$500 for most of the generation to play platform holder exclusive titles.

The EGS is not where it needs to be in terms of features but it won't be that way forever.

 

[SapientWolf]

A lot of people have made a lot of different cases for why EGS is bad, but I feel like it's a million little cuts. No one argument has been strong enough to convince people who don't care about the same things as us to suddenly start giving a damn.

And then you have the people who harass devs and veer into conspiracies which I pointed out in my previous post. When that shit happens, it takes away from any legitimacy other arguments might have.

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Some people will never care. That's just the nature of things.

The arguments against EGS are either sound and valid or they're not. Harassment is a completely separate issue. Conflating the two sounds like a "guilt by association" fallacy.

 

[Dog of Bork]

I guess it's good we're not going to convince you of stuff we aren't trying to convince you of. Convenient that you're misrepresenting everyone to make your point.

Transparent as fuck

 

[GhostTrick]

You are never going to convince me that competition in the marketplace is a bad thing.

You are never going to convince me to view Valve as the "good guys."

You are never going to convince me that the vitriolic responses to developers who choose to play ball and EPIC employees are within reason.

This is all ridiculous. Exclusive deals are commonplace in this industry and having to download a different launcher is a nothingburger in comparison to having to pay $400-$500 for most of the generation to play platform holder exclusive titles.

The EGS is not where it needs to be in terms of features but it won't be that way forever.

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I just gave you an exemple: Higher average prices.
When a game's average price goes from 45€ to 60€, you're telling me it's a "nothing burger" ? What's wrong with you ?
Of course I'm never going to convince you if you're coming into a discussion to argue in bad faith and to just say "I'm right, forever right and you're wrong".

Heck, where did I say Valve are the good guy ?
Where did I say competition is a bad thing ?

You're inventing stuff no one talked about wtf.

Although I can explain you why EGS isn't actually competing and is actively avoiding competition.

 

[Avitus]

You are never going to convince me that competition in the marketplace is a bad thing.

You are never going to convince me to view Valve as the "good guys."

You are never going to convince me that the vitriolic responses to developers who choose to play ball and EPIC employees are within reason.

This is all ridiculous. Exclusive deals are commonplace in this industry and having to download a different launcher is a nothingburger in comparison to having to pay $400-$500 for most of the generation to play platform holder exclusive titles.

The EGS is not where it needs to be in terms of features but it won't be that way forever.

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You're shouting into the void at this point, deflecting, but I'll bite:

• Restricting choice to 1 platform isn't a net gain in competition.
• Nobody is arguing that Valve are "good guys", merely that EGS is competing in the wrong way
• You are never going to convince me all pushback on the EGS is vitriolic and unwarranted. There are quite a few reasonable arguments against the EGS.
• Exclusivity deals are not commonplace on the PC, where this sort of thing is new and unwelcome

I welcome the day the EGS is on par with Steam features wise. It would make a lot more sense to build up a viable client before forcing people to use it. But if Epic wants to force people to use a subpar launcher, that's on them, and we're free to criticize them for it.

 

[Dr. Ludwig]

You are never going to convince me that competition in the marketplace is a bad thing.

You are never going to convince me to view Valve as the "good guys."

You are never going to convince me that the vitriolic responses to developers who choose to play ball and EPIC employees are within reason.

This is all ridiculous. Exclusive deals are commonplace in this industry and having to download a different launcher is a nothingburger in comparison to having to pay $400-$500 for most of the generation to play platform holder exclusive titles.

The EGS is not where it needs to be in terms of features but it won't be that way forever.

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Are you talking to yourself?

Because these arguments are new to what was discussed before...

 

[Blah]

You are never going to convince me that competition in the marketplace is a bad thing.

You are never going to convince me to view Valve as the "good guys."

You are never going to convince me that the vitriolic responses to developers who choose to play ball and EPIC employees are within reason.

This is all ridiculous. Exclusive deals are commonplace in this industry and having to download a different launcher is a nothingburger in comparison to having to pay $400-$500 for most of the generation to play platform holder exclusive titles.

The EGS is not where it needs to be in terms of features but it won't be that way forever.

Click to shrink...

I would have had a bingo if you could have thrown in "monopoly".

 

[ShutterMunster]

I just gave you an exemple: Higher average prices.
When a game's average price goes from 45€ to 60€, you're telling me it's a "nothing burger" ? What's wrong with you ?
Of course I'm never going to convince you if you're coming into a discussion to argue in bad faith and to just say "I'm right, forever right and you're wrong".

Heck, where did I say Valve are the good guy ?
Where did I say competition is a bad thing ?

You're inventing stuff no one talked about wtf.

Although I can explain you why EGS isn't actually competing and is actively avoiding competition.

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This? https://www.gameinformer.com/2019/0...pers-to-raise-prices-temporarily-delist-games

Come on...

 

[MaLDo]

I don't get how Mat Piscatella and Jason Schreier see this as coming out as a martyr. The dev is clear in his statement; Epic's terms are too restrictive and he doesn't want to betray the fans who were promised a Steam release.

What an odd conclusion to jump to.

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What a pair of ....

 

[GhostTrick]

This? https://www.gameinformer.com/2019/0...pers-to-raise-prices-temporarily-delist-games

Come on...

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No, not this.
This:

Or this:

Or Metro Exodus which was 45€ on 3rd party retailers (legitimate ones, not grey market) and is now a full flat 60€ on EGS.

3rd party retailers drives competition. Price competition. Take any AAA right now, you can shop for the best price and save up to 15 or even 20 bucks on a new release. But when you remove that, you raise the average price. Spread that on 20 releases over 3 years, that's already 300 to 400 bucks spent on a "nothingburger".

 

[Andri]

One must commend the dev on his smart business sense to capitalise on Gamers hate of Epic to drum up support for his game, by releasing the email from Epic publicly.

Would love to see the endresult of it a year out.
Does the dev working with Epic and angering Gamers come out better than the dev pleasing Gamers but declining Epics money.

How many times would the publicity of openly rejecting Epic result in more revenue than accepting it ?
Eventually Gamers will find a new thing to be furious about, so will they then still buy games just because they recected being on Epic ?

 

[eonden]

This? https://www.gameinformer.com/2019/0...pers-to-raise-prices-temporarily-delist-games

Come on...

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Removing games from other legit third party key sellers, which utilize the 30% cut to give higher discounts to attract people to their stores is a way to raise prices. Most AAA games can be found at 20% discount before launch because of those third party key sellers (which Epic is trying to slowly kill).

There is also the fact that the mantra of "competition is good for the market" is because competition brings new ideas and tries to push forward the market. Sadly, in the PC game launcher, only really GoG and Steam take this seriously (as Origin and UPlay have stagnated, the second one less than the first tbh, and Epic launched with a suite of ideas and functionality that makes Origin at launch look amazing). Forcing an inferior product onto the users by burning money is not what the "competition is good for the market" means.

 

[Deleted member 45414]

It's never going to convince them anyway. The reasons and arguments are clear cut but if they don't want to hear them than nothing is going to change their mind.

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What's the single best argument we have against the EGS?

The only developer getting harassed in this topic is the one that didn't accept Epic's ultimatum.

Not only that but the developer's decision is being spun into a conspiracy where it's all done for publicity. From journalist's no less!

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Genuine question: is he being harassed? Do you have some context for this?

I don't think it's a stretch to say he did for publicity, but I also don't see that as a negative, which is why I think Jason's take is bad, but I'm not gonna judge him for being anti-anti-EGS after the Ooblets situation.

Sorry but that argument doesn't work. Otherwise that'd mean any big corporation is immune to criticism. That means there's no way we should ever criticize McDonald because their employees suffers daily harassement, either verbal, emotional and even physical from employees and that criticism of McDonald means it legitimize the harassement of their employees. You can swap McDonald for any big corporation offering services.

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A better example would be if you were criticizing a local McDonalds together with a crowd of people, but then some of that crowd suddenly start throwing things at the staff while still yelling the same criticisms as you.

 

[Avitus]

I don't get how Mat Piscatella and Jason Schreier see this as coming out as a martyr. The dev is clear in his statement; Epic's terms are too restrictive and he doesn't want to betray the fans who were promised a Steam release.

What an odd conclusion to jump to.

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Really disappointing stuff from Jason.

 

[GhostTrick]

What's the single best argument we have against the EGS?



Genuine question: is he being harassed? Do you have some context for this?

I don't think it's a stretch to say he did for publicity, but I also don't see that as a negative, which is why I think Jason's take is bad, but I'm not gonna judge him for being anti-anti-EGS after the Ooblets situation.



A better example would be if you were criticizing McDonalds together with a crowd of people, but then some of that crowd suddenly start throwing things at the staff while still yelling the same criticisms as you.

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Except this isn't what happens at all. There's basically a narrative that going forward, any criticism of EGS should be shut down because harassement happens. If that's the case, then it means criticism of McDonald for being a big corporation making shiton of money legitimize harassement of their employees.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Not exactly an impartial source.

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I still remember reading from time to time some of the blog posts from Sergey Galyonkin and Steamspy and wondering "Why does a guy that basically makes his living out of leeching data from Steam sound more and more hostile toward the service with every passing month?
Why for any data he offers he seems to embrace always the least charitable interpretation of what's going on?

Almost two years later the EGS was announced, his role with the new store publicly disclosed and it turned out he was already on Epic's paybook for at least four years at that point.

In hindsight it was almost amusing how transparent that attitude was.
The only scenario that could surprise me even less would be learning that Gabe Newell killed Nathan Grayson's puppy, or something of that sort.

 

[EloKa]

This is all ridiculous. Exclusive deals are commonplace in this industry and having to download a different launcher is a nothingburger in comparison to having to pay $400-$500 for most of the generation to play platform holder exclusive titles.

The EGS is not where it needs to be in terms of features but it won't be that way forever.

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I miss the days when "just a different launcher" was an instant ban. Was there ever a statement why people don't get banned for that straw man argument anymore? I mean it didn't suddenly become correct or something. Did we just kinda accept these stupid posts?

Also the EGS is already here since almost 6 years.

 

[Plum]

This "you either are pro-EGS or you harass developers" narrative is so manipulative and screwed up, yet so funny at the same time since you can see it's bullshit from 500 kilometers away lmao

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It's also blatant gaslighting. The Ooblets developer were harassed because other people outside of themselves used their poor PR statements in the blog post and discord as a 'justification' to start harassing them. The developers made a bad move, yes, but other people grossly over-reacted to it in a way that completely removes any and all 'blame' from themselves.

Refusing to admit that harms discussion in my eyes as it allows for posts like that which conflate any anti-EGS stance with pro-harassment and, more importantly, it dilutes the anti-harassment message by moving the rhetoric from 'that behaviour is wrong' to 'your motives were wrong'. It's really frustrating for me as that kind of rhetoric is rarely, if ever, called out for what it is and how counter-productive it can be.

 

[Hucast]

When I read stuff like that from a journalist like jason schreier I kinda wish we never gave kotaku attention on this site but thats just me. There's something very suspicious with journalists and EGS as a whole.

 

[GhostTrick]

When I read stuff like that from a journalist like jason schreier I kinda wish we never gave kotaku attention on this site but thats just me. There's something very suspicious with journalists and EGS as a whole.

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Can we not ?

 

[Deleted member 401]

When I read stuff like that from a journalist like jason schreier I kinda wish we never gave kotaku attention on this site but thats just me. There's something very suspicious with journalists and EGS as a whole.

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You're reading too much into it. It's probably more ignorance or otherwise lack of interest in engaging in the conversation on their part.

 

[Hucast]

You're reading too much into it. It's probably more ignorance or otherwise lack of interest in engaging in the conversation on their part.

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Can we not ?

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The reason I say this personally is, and I mentioned this before, because there was an episode at kinda funny games where one of the guys admitted in having a deal with Epic to promote their store. I just wonder on what scale this is happening through all the media sites

 

[Plum]

I don't get how Mat Piscatella and Jason Schreier see this as coming out as a martyr. The dev is clear in his statement; Epic's terms are too restrictive and he doesn't want to betray the fans who were promised a Steam release.

What an odd conclusion to jump to.

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Where were these complaints of 'making martyrs' when Epic themselves made martyrs out of the Ooblets developers by using their harassment as an opportunity to market the Epic Games store? This excerpt is taken directly from the statement by Epic meant to 'condemn' the harassment that those developers faced:

Epic is working together with many game developers and other partners to build what we believe will be a healthier and more competitive multi-store world for the future.

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[Andri]

When I read stuff like that from a journalist like jason schreier I kinda wish we never gave kotaku attention on this site but thats just me. There's something very suspicious with journalists and EGS as a whole.

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Good to know the old "journalists dont say what i like, so they must be paid of" argument is strong as ever.

 

[hey it's that dog]

Accusing the dude of martyrdom assumes he has made a great sacrifice, which remains to be seen. He seems confident that he'll sell a satisfactory amount on Steam.

 

[Tart Toter 9K]

The reason I say this personally is, and I mentioned this before, because there was an episode at kinda funny games where one of the guys admitted in having a deal with Epic to promote their store. I just wonder on what scale this is happening through all the media sites

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The Kinda Funny Games person was probably talking about this.
Epic talks about wanting to give a cut to influencers whenever they are part of making a sale on the store.
The minimum is 5% but they can increase it if they want to and the cut would come from the developers 88%.

 

[Deleted member 45414]

Except this isn't what happens at all. There's basically a narrative that going forward, any criticism of EGS should be shut down because harassement happens. If that's the case, then it means criticism of McDonald for being a big corporation making shiton of money legitimize harassement of their employees.

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Things work differently online I guess, maybe because it's harder to separate the people who crosses the line and the people who don't.

I see it happening all the time here on Era, where criticism gets shot down, because the recipient of criticism is receiving threats. So it's not really a "narrative", and it's certainly not exclusive to EGS (😉).

And I don't think it's a bad idea to take a step back when people who share your viewpoints suddenly start crossing the line.