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Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
That is also why the souls games have such a strong sense of community, everybody goes through exactly the same challenges, treads the same paths, experiences the same struggles.
Using trainers is quite common. So no, they don't "experience the same struggles". Instead, they reach a point where the game simply isn't fun anymore and then cheat past it. The idea that everyone has the same experience is fundamentally flawed because in the absence of an actual Easy mode people just cheat instead.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
Yeah. No.

Adding additional difficulty modes won't magically turn this into Episode Gladiolus. It'll still be the same shit.

Are you saying the creator of the series is wrong about the use of difficulty in his own games?

If not what are you basing you dismissal on?

if you don't like it, by all means, just don't toggle the easy difficulty. It ain't rocket surgery.

What does this have to do with everyone else the game is trying to use it's difficulty to emotionally influence? You know, the entire intended audience?
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
I fucking suck at fighting games, but i ain't petitioning about adding a "mash 1 button to combo", just because i'm not willing to practice and git gud. There, i said it!
Many fighting games do include 1-button combo options and combo assists these days. And most fighting games have difficulty ladders and adjustable AI to scale to your skill level.

It's one thing I love about modern fighting games. They have something for players of all skill levels.
 

karmitt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,818
Btw, this is the equivalent of wanting choices removed in RPG games because you just can't be bothered to role-play.

If they don't remove the standard way of play, what does it matter? Not sure what your point is. There's more to RPGs these days than role-playing, despite the what the genre's name suggests.

Do mountains all need escalators? Should the ironman be shortened so that anyone can finish one?

Many things are rewarding because of the challenge and effort required.

If it were practical for those that really wanted to see what it's like from the peak of a mountain to do so, regardless of physical ability, would you wish to prevent them from doing that on account of maintaining the associated challenge?

A triathlon like ironman is an endurance sport. It's sole purpose is to challenge one's physical prowess. There's a lot more to the Souls games than just the challenge, despite what some people feel.
 
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LoyalPhoenix

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,766
The wasted time adds up.

I don't put up with game mechanics that waste my time these days.
I wouldnt consider it wasted time especially in Bloodborne, killing enemies can give you things like blood vials that which a boss that is proving to be difficult is awesome, on top of that if you were to fight them you would be gaining more and more souls until eventually when you beat the boss you have accumulated a ton of them to go off and level up, just make sure to pick em up every time you die.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,128
You understand some people don't want to play the game that way, right? All I'm saying is having difficulty settings would give people options. If you think playing on an easier difficulty would ruin the game, then don't, pick the harder difficulty.

Then why are you playing the game?

The point is the challenge and the stress. If there was no consequence for losing a boss battle then you wouldn't feel any tension when confronting them. You'd also likely play WAY more aggressively and carelessly because what's the harm? If you die you'll just spawn right outside the boss room and try over. Your suggestion would destroy almost all challenge and tension from boss fights and exploration.

If they don't remove the standard way of play, what does it matter? Not sure what your point is. There's more to RPGs these days than role-playing, despite the what the genre's name suggests.

Not in an RPG that focuses on choice. The Story Mode crap for Mass Effect 3 was a mistake, it should never have been included. If you don't want to role-play in a RPG that is all about ROLE-PLAYING, then play something else.
 

SmarmySmurf

Banned
Nov 5, 2017
1,931
User was warned for inappropriate posting etiquette.
So tell me, why has From not added one after 5(much more if you count KF, ST, ER etc) games?
What insult would you use for the people that made that decision?

From is cheap and lazy, balancing multiple difficulties takes more time and money. It isn't exclusive to From either, but they stumbled on a formula that elitists mistook for something more hardcore and capitalized on it. Good on them for making bank off of gullible hardcore Gamers™, bad on them for not reaching the IPs full potential because of easy money.

Every game should have an easy mode, as should they also have bloody difficult modes. This doesn't apply to just this series.

What's so bad about more people getting to enjoy them however they want?

QFT
 

LoyalPhoenix

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,766
Out of curiosity (if you want) who here who has issue with DarkSouls/Bloodborne difficulty has played/completed Cuphead? Which in fact has an easy mode.
 

WoollyTitan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
558
The Maldovarium
Are you saying the creator of the series is wrong about the use of difficulty in his own games?

If not what are you basing you dismissal on?
I don't know what he said nor do I care for it. I'm of the opinion that everyone should get to enjoy any game they purchase however they want. And developers taking accessibility into account is responsible and positive.

Take me into account: I found Devil May Cry 3 to be too easy when I first picked it up, so I cranked up the difficulty modes and found it more fun. Dark Souls II on the other hand was downright moronic on how it was hell-bent on making everything you did be a waste of time, so I eventually fired up a trainer.

I play on PC mostly, so I'm lucky like that. I have more options. Console players not so much, and limiting games to the obsessively hardcore means you're only catering to them and no one else. It's not just about sales: You're preventing people from being able to enjoy it. Hence, options: Add easy modes for the casual players, higher difficulties for the more dedicated or challenge-seeking. I honestly can't comprehend how anyone sees that as a bad thing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,942
Part of me thinks the push back is because people don't want the game to be more mainstream and like being able to brag they they are hardcore

There's no reason why all games shouldn't have an optional easy mode. What if I just wanted to experience the story and lore of the world. I could play the game on easy or watch it on YouTube and you don't get a sale
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
From is cheap and lazy, balancing multiple difficulties takes more time and money. It isn't exclusive to From either, but they stumbled on a formula that elitists mistook for something more hardcore and capitalized on it. Good on them for making bank off of gullible hardcore Gamers™, bad on them for not reaching the IPs full potential because of easy money.

Are you a multi million selling developer or armchair dev? Something in between? Genuinely curious because you seem very sure of yourself.

I don't know what he said nor do I care for it. I'm of the opinion that everyone should get to enjoy any game they purchase however they want. And developers taking accessibility into account is responsible and positive.

So basically you're delivering a moral mandate. Well, we're done.

I don't think we have common ground to discuss this further so long as you deny the ability for niche games to exist on some nonsensical/misguided moralistic stance.

And players are free to enjoy the game how they want. Just the same as any other purchase. And just like any other purchase there are things it won't do by design, and it's on you for purchasing it when your use case wasn't included. That's your fault, not theirs. They never obligate you to buy it.
 
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Res

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,627
Tbh I'd rather they devote their resources to balancing the main game
 

Ratrat

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,867
From is cheap and lazy, balancing multiple difficulties takes more time and money. It isn't exclusive to From either, but they stumbled on a formula that elitists mistook for something more hardcore and capitalized on it. Good on them for making bank off of gullible hardcore Gamers™, bad on them for not reaching the IPs full potential because of easy money.
Thanks, exactly what I wanted to hear.

It's amazing the kind of insults that people like to throw all the while getting triggered by the suggestion that they should play better.


In any case, this is Easy mode pipe dream isn't going any where, as nice as this discussion is.
 

TreeMePls

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,258
Part of me thinks the push back is because people don't want the game to be more mainstream and like being able to brag they they are hardcore

There's no reason why all games shouldn't have an optional easy mode. What if I just wanted to experience the story and lore of the world. I could play the game on easy or watch it on YouTube and you don't get a sale
I mean, considering there's what, 5 games?, in the same series and they still haven't done this tells me they don't care about lost sales due to difficulty
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
No joke thats actually true, the difference in difficulty 1 or more people make in a souls game is crazy. imo they should actually increase health on bosses from what they currently depending on how many players are in the game.
There are a few bosses in soulsborne that are harder in co-op, to be fair. Ludwig, the demons in DS3 DLC, Ancient dragon, Darkeater Midir(Co-op is stupidly brutal with him). But, yeah, co-op is mostly easy mode.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,128
Guys, 2001: A Space Odyssey is so boring and long, can't they re-edit to make it easier to follow? Can they add in a few explosions every minute and some quips and maybe a couple of exposition dumps here and there so I can understand what is going on? Hey, why is everyone getting so hostile? I'm just asking for options! If you want to watch the movie the original way then you can, I'm just asking for some extra options for people like me that just don't have time to try and decipher such a movie or spend three hours watching it. A movie studio and director should try to cater to their customers, adding more options can't hurt the experience.
 

Deleted member 8408

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,648
Using trainers is quite common. So no, they don't "experience the same struggles". Instead, they reach a point where the game simply isn't fun anymore and then cheat past it. The idea that everyone has the same experience is fundamentally flawed because in the absence of an actual Easy mode people just cheat instead.

And on consoles?

Any idea how many people are using trainers vs those who actually play the game as it was intended. How common is "common"?

The idea that every game you play should be played to completion is also a flawed one (that's for another topic). If you have to cheat to "complete" a game then it can be argued that you didn't actually complete anything at all. How can somebody who cheated their way to victory contribute to the community and offer up advice/insight to other players? Who would want to call on that players assistance via summoning?
 

Maxina

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,308
Part of me thinks the push back is because people don't want the game to be more mainstream and like being able to brag they they are hardcore

There's no reason why all games shouldn't have an optional easy mode. What if I just wanted to experience the story and lore of the world. I could play the game on easy or watch it on YouTube and you don't get a sale
A flawed statement, considering Souls games are really popular streamer games. Streamers aren't your most hardcore players either, and some of them outright suck ass, yet managed to reach the final boss and beat it.
 

Uno Venova

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,858
I don't know what he said nor do I care for it. I'm of the opinion that everyone should get to enjoy any game they purchase however they want. And developers taking accessibility into account is responsible and positive.

Take me into account: I found Devil May Cry 3 to be too easy when I first picked it up, so I cranked up the difficulty modes and found it more fun. Dark Souls II on the other hand was downright moronic on how it was hell-bent on making everything you did be a waste of time, so I eventually fired up a trainer.

I play on PC mostly, so I'm lucky like that. I have more options. Console players not so much, and limiting games to the obsessively hardcore means you're only catering to them and no one else. It's not just about sales: You're preventing people from being able to enjoy it. Hence, options: Add easy modes for the casual players, higher difficulties for the more dedicated or challenge-seeking. I honestly can't comprehend how anyone sees that as a bad thing.
This doesn't seem to be an offensive stance for a developer to take though, they seem to be catering to their fanbase, like most developers should, even if a very small minority doesn't enjoy it. No game has a 100% enjoyment rate.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
From is cheap and lazy, balancing multiple difficulties takes more time and money. It isn't exclusive to From either, but they stumbled on a formula that elitists mistook for something more hardcore and capitalized on it. Good on them for making bank off of gullible hardcore Gamers™, bad on them for not reaching the IPs full potential because of easy money.

From added co-op. And summonable NPC's with stupidly high health. There is an easy mode.
 

BMW

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,703
A creator's vision shouldn't be compromised for the folks that don't like it. The souls franchise gained so much popularity because of the no "compromise" policy.
 

Deleted member 8408

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,648
From is cheap and lazy, balancing multiple difficulties takes more time and money. It isn't exclusive to From either, but they stumbled on a formula that elitists mistook for something more hardcore and capitalized on it. Good on them for making bank off of gullible hardcore Gamers™, bad on them for not reaching the IPs full potential because of easy money.

Do you actually want to sit down and have a debate with those who have taken the time to respond intelligently to your previous post in this thread? Or would you rather whimsically throw insults around?
 

Swanlee

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
939
How many times must this be repeated. An easy mode would basically screw the game over.

How if it is completely optional? The game can play exactly the same on other difficulties and those that want the challenge can ignore easier modes. It literally would have no impact on those still wanting a challenge
 

Khezu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,949
I don't trust From Software to be able to balance multiple difficulty settings.
Plus, there is a shit ton of other things they need to fix with the franchise before adding in a pointless easy mode.
If DS wasn't challenging, then it probably wouldn't be very fun or engaging.
 

R.T Straker

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,715
Why are people mentioning Cuphead's easy mode?

You guys do realize that you cannot progress the game with that since you don't get the contracts to progress foward right?

It's useless.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
How if it is completely optional? The game can play exactly the same on other difficulties and those that want the challenge can ignore easier modes. It literally would have no impact on those still wanting a challenge

Because those that chose it would be denying the intended emotional effect of the difficulty the game has. It also has the capacity to remove that for those who might use that option around certain challenges while currently you have to do so purely within the confines of build, strategy, skill and summons, which further strengthens those elements of the game.
 

macapala

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
272
Then why are you playing the game?

The point is the challenge and the stress. If there was no consequence for losing a boss battle then you wouldn't feel any tension when confronting them. You'd also likely play WAY more aggressively and carelessly because what's the harm? If you die you'll just spawn right outside the boss room and try over. Your suggestion would destroy almost all challenge and tension from boss fights and exploration.

1. If you're stressed while playing a game, then why are you playing it?
2. There is a consequence for losing a boss fight, you have to start the fight over again. That's punishment enough. Running back to the boss, ignoring all the enemies along the way, is waste of time. It's not challenging or fun.
3. You think having difficulty setting/ more save points would ruin the game. I don't. It's just an opinion. Chill.....
 

LoyalPhoenix

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,766
How come? Did they patch that in?

At launch my wife played the first Island on easy mode and couldn't go into the second cuz she had 0 soul contracts taken.
its was there since day one, its how i was able to get passed World 2 because i was having difficulty with the dragon. Did she get all the bosses? there was like 5 or 6.
 

WaffleTaco

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,908
Yes, because it won't take anything away from those that want to play it normally, but make it easier for those that don't want to waste their time playing the same thing over and over again.
 

Deleted member 8408

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,648
How if it is completely optional? The game can play exactly the same on other difficulties and those that want the challenge can ignore easier modes. It literally would have no impact on those still wanting a challenge

Challenge is the game's core mechanic. Death is a mechanic:



These elements tie into what has become the addictive risk/reward gameplay loop that has kept the fan base coming back for more, iteration after iteration. To never die in these games is to never experience them. To never lose your souls is to have never lost. To never organically stumble across the next shortcut/bonfire with low HP and no more healing items is to never have discovered.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,128
1. If you're stressed while playing a game, then why are you playing it?
2. There is a consequence for losing a boss fight, you have to start the fight over again. That's punishment enough. Running back to the boss, ignoring all the enemies along the way, is waste of time. It's not challenging or fun.
3. You think having difficulty setting/ more save points would ruin the game. I don't. It's just an opinion. Chill.....

1. Stress is the intended emotional reaction the game wishes to invoke, this stress is relieved upon clearing an area or defeating a boss. Thus, creating a sense of accomplishment and euphoria, ie Praise the Motherfucking Sun! Removing stress would remove any sense of accomplishment.
2. Running back to a boss is a challenge, you may not like the challenge, but it is a challenge. It is also a consequence of losing the fight that keeps the tension up in said fights. Simply restarting the boss fight would not be punishment enough as I already explained. The only time that is acceptable is when bosses have multiple stages, like Sister Friede. She has three different stages, as a result they place a bonfire right outside the boss room. The reason is obvious, there is still a high amount of tension and challenge when you die to her because of how long and multi-stage the fight is. However, a one stage or even two stage boss fight does not require a bonfire directly outside their room.
3. Okay...I'm chill.
 

Swanlee

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
939
Because those that chose it would be denying the intended emotional effect of the difficulty the game has. It also has the capacity to remove that for those who might use that option around certain challenges while currently you have to do so purely within the confines of build, strategy, skill and summons, which further strengthens those elements of the game.

And it would be their choice and have no impact on those choosing higher difficulties. For alot of people it is either easier mode or no play
 

Ratrat

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,867
Hm, true, but there isn't any harm in expanding potential enjoyment either.
Would they enjoy it? I wonder if someone who can't bother to learn the combat will fair any better with piecing the story together or finishing side quests. Adding more cutscenes and cutting down on the horror could potentially expand the audience too, but it doesn't mean it has to be done either.
 

warheat

Member
Oct 28, 2017
222
No, just no. If you find it too hard, git gud or go play something else. If they gain a lot of users due to easy mode, their next game might be created around easy mode, this can't happen.

Souls and SMT series should stick with their challenging gameplay, the latter seems to get more easier every installment, I just hope Souls series don't suffer the same fate.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
I fucking suck at fighting games, but i ain't petitioning about adding a "mash 1 button to combo", just because i'm not willing to practice and git gud. There, i said it!
The fighting game business model is significantly built around non-"enthusiast" fans button mashing their way through that particular game's story mode. If you couldn't finish games like Tekken by smashing every button and wiggling the sticks, not as many people would buy them, IMO.
Any idea how many people are using trainers vs those who actually play the game as it was intended. How common is "common"?
This is a screenshot of one trainer from one site for Dark Souls 1. I imagine it's just the tip of the iceberg. If you added up all the sites with trainers and all the various versions, you'd be looking at hundreds of thousands of people. Potentially low millions with all three games combined, but there's no way to prove that. Using various forms of cheating to bypass difficulty spikes in games is pervasive on PC. People play until the game stops being fun. And then they either get bored and stop playing, or start exploring other options.

The thing about Dark Souls 1 in particular is that "how the developers intended" was viewed as absolutely unacceptable. A huge number of players downloaded dsfix to fix the game's resolution problems. Already people were intentionally straying away from the "developer's intended experience" because they didn't care for it.
abloadktrsp.png

PC gamers are... remarkably willing to run potentially virus ridden code. It's honestly pretty mindblowing considering how security conscious they can be otherwise. Trainers are... super shady and generally come from super shady sites.

The idea that every game you play should be played to completion is also a flawed one (that's for another topic). If you have to cheat to "complete" a game then it can be argued that you didn't actually complete anything at all. How can somebody who cheated their way to victory contribute to the community and offer up advice/insight to other players? Who would want to call on that players assistance via summoning?
A lot of players play Dark Souls games offline because they hate the Invasion stuff.
 

Swanlee

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
939
Challenge is the game's core mechanic. Death is a mechanic:



These elements tie into what has become the addictive risk/reward gameplay loop that has kept the fan base coming back for more, iteration after iteration. To never die in these games is to never experience them. To never lose your souls is to have never lost. To never organically stumble across the next shortcut/bonfire with low HP and no more healing items is to never have discovered.


And has no impact on how others play the game
 

Zone

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
90
Hm, true, but there isn't any harm in expanding potential enjoyment either.

Sure, there isn't any harm in expanding the enjoyment, but why should they have to?

Clearly they're marketing a specific audience, an audience that want a challenge. Why can't people just accept the fact that not every game is for everyone.
 

evilromero

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,419
It has an easy mode. It's called grinding until you're at a high enough level to dish some serious damage, which happens to come with the hidden bonus of getting better through repetition.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
1. If you're stressed while playing a game, then why are you playing it?
2. There is a consequence for losing a boss fight, you have to start the fight over again. That's punishment enough. Running back to the boss, ignoring all the enemies along the way, is waste of time. It's not challenging or fun.
3. You think having difficulty setting/ more save points would ruin the game. I don't. It's just an opinion. Chill.....

1) The high created by breaking that stress through achievements laced into gameplay
2) That contributes to the lows that contrast to the highs, for why those lows exist see 1)
3) One can either believe those attributes were placed with a purposeful desire to support the core of the game or are just mechanical necessities unrelated to the overall themes, feeling and atmosphere of playing the game.
  • If one thinks the latter than their probably in the camp of thinking they can be changed with no effect because they either don't see the importance of the answer to 1) or don't feel it's fundamentally important or even that such an aspect exists
  • If one believes the former than the answer is obvious, they need to be far enough apart to create a survival and resource management fear so that those feelings can contrast with the high of a victory/shortcut/bonfire
And it would be their choice and have no impact on those choosing higher difficulties. For alot of people it is either easier mode or no play

Why does what others chose matter? It in no way influences that them having that choice isn't the game From wanted to make. They wanted a game where you felt what they set you up to feel and as such kept all aspects of the setup intact.

If you don't want to play that, don't. That's a wholly valid decision. Why others think "no-play" needs to be universally avoided when it comes purely down to preference is mind boggling.
 

Riversands

Banned
Nov 21, 2017
5,669
My tip is that if you find the game hard, it's literally because you do something wrong with that section. I remember i was struggling so hard at the big bonfire area, it turns out I just had to run because the area was designed that way. Simple as that. But some are not that simple, you just need to adapt to some situation
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Guys, 2001: A Space Odyssey is so boring and long, can't they re-edit to make it easier to follow? Can they add in a few explosions every minute and some quips and maybe a couple of exposition dumps here and there so I can understand what is going on? Hey, why is everyone getting so hostile? I'm just asking for options! If you want to watch the movie the original way then you can, I'm just asking for some extra options for people like me that just don't have time to try and decipher such a movie or spend three hours watching it. A movie studio and director should try to cater to their customers, adding more options can't hurt the experience.
THIS. People don't get how they come across when asking for shit like that. It's being entitled and nothing else. It's telling noone in favour of changes to the vision of the devs is responding to this.
Challenge is the game's core mechanic. Death is a mechanic:



These elements tie into what has become the addictive risk/reward gameplay loop that has kept the fan base coming back for more, iteration after iteration. To never die in these games is to never experience them. To never lose your souls is to have never lost. To never organically stumble across the next shortcut/bonfire with low HP and no more healing items is to never have discovered.

People basically are asking for modes that would destroy what the games actually are about just so they can collect some trophies and shit. It's mindboggling.

And has no impact on how others play the game
It has an impact on what the devs wanted the game to be and how they want the players to experience it.