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TubaZef

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,565
Brazil
Action games like DMC, NG, and Bayo have easy modes, and their inclusion has never hurt the core experience. I'm not saying "therefore Bloodborne should have an easy mode, QED", just that the idea that it ought not to based on fear of damaging the game's balance is probably unfounded.

The idea of easier modes in those games in exactly for people to train, learn the game basics and then try on a harder difficulty. They're built to be played multiple times and they get better each time.
That could work for Souls games but I don't know if that would work with the current design.
 

treemonkeys

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
156
If easy mode is its own little gated community that is unable to interact with the regular mode folk, then no, easy mode does not threaten the experience of others in any way whatsoever.

The problem is that the resources to tune and play test another difficulty do not get pulled from thin air. The vast majority of games have higher difficulties that are more or less unfun bullshit because of this. It's not sensible to think that when the entire game is designed and tested around a singular difficulty that that experience would do anything but go down and be watered down with those resources have to be split across multiple difficulties. Also, the game because as popular as it is because of it's difficulty (not just by being hard, but fair), and that popularity makes people act like they are owed accessibility from the series or something. No one gives a fuck that random indie game is hard as hell, you don't see these types of threads for those games.
 

Swanlee

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
939
Because the developer intended to make the game hard so they made it hard. You take it or leave it. I don't know why that's so hard for some people to accept. Games that I am not good enough at, like super hard 2D platformers now a days, I don't play them because they aren't for me.

I'm leaving it if they can't even bother to include easier difficulties
 

JumpCancel

Member
Oct 26, 2017
630
For those having trouble with bosses and don't want to deal with them, you could just summon people to help you

5613.jpg
 

Swanlee

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
939
This right here is the inevtiable outcome.

People will play the game, first try every boss with ease, run past everything looking forward to their questmarker, finish it 12 hours later and go "that's it? That's what's so popular?"



Cuphead has an easy mode

It not an easy mode
 

impact

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,380
Tampa
Yeah what's this grinding thing people do in soulsborne games? Are they trying to gain like 30 levels so they can brute force the bosses or something?
Only grinding you NEED to do is grind for healing items in Bloodborne and Demon's Souls.

Both are just flat out bad mechanics. Won't see me defending that mess.
 

SnowCrow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
274
If they want to add it, then it won't bother me. I wouldn't be the one using the mode but who am I to stop others from having fun.
Certainly doesn't need it right now though. The games are doing well enough with the audience that enjoys the difficulty and the creators probably want to keep it that way.

On the other hand, something like Fire Emblem had to add the casual modes in order to survive.

But really, the difficulty of the games is exaggerated when you can do stuff like run past every enemy.
 

abrasivemurk

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,591
That should've happened with Bloodborne. I love Souls games but some of the bosses were fucking brutal, I always saw that as From's way of saying "Easy mode? Get the fuck out of here"
Bloodborne was the hardest Soulsborne game I've ever played. From Software just keeps increasing difficulty level year after year in their games.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,206
If you added an easy mode it would ruin the experience. And while it might allow more people to play it , ultimately they might not enjoy the game at all.

Part of the experience is the tension or the reward after figuring out how to beat an enemy or pulling a clutch play. If you reduce the difficulty then you dont feel rewarded , If you could just mash and kill enemies.
While souls games do have amazing lore , they don't really present a great cinematic story or anything like that. Just try playing through one of the souls games with a highly levlled up character and see if you enjoy it , I guarantee nobody would enjoy it.


This is actually an excellent vid about the consequence of reducing the skill needed. While it is mainly for fighting games and not souls games. It answers the same question that are often asked by people to make fighting games easier.
 

saint

Member
Oct 27, 2017
709
summon phantoms and use magic. problem solved. lets not dumb down games just for the sake of dumbing them down. not every game is for everyone.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,362
lol, I think that's up to the person. I've broken controllers and various other things due to raging at video games in the past. It may not be best for everyone to stick with a video game all the way through.
Yeahhhh um. If that's how you react to difficult video games, I would definitely say they are not for you no matter what.

Both are just flat out bad mechanics. Won't see me defending that mess.
That's OK, I will defend them for you. :D
 

wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
That feeling also is diminished if you summon phantoms to help you, and yet that is still allowed within the game.

The phantoms are a mechanic. Obviously, it's a way to adjust the difficulty for yourself (along with kindling and stuff like that), but it has its place in the game world and you feel smart for taking advantage of it. They're not the same thing to me.

Moreover, if you're gonna bring up Phantoms as a way to make the games easier, do they still need an easy mode? I don't think so.
 

Deleted member 2229

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
You are correct. I can. But not everybody is savvy enough to download a trainer or a mod without getting a trojan horse or whatever. Also, console gamers don't have a lot of options. Which is why I defend having a console for the player to put easy commands or even cheat codes.
But see we're just back to either, its up to the developer to do as they please, if they choose not to for whatever reason, there isnt anything inherently wrong with that.
And that no matter what, something will be out of someones grasp and some things just arent for everyone. What if said person cant find cheat code, is dyslexic, has no internet access. There will always be something and its not really the devs responsibility to think of everything so everyone can enjoy it, especially if it goes against their principles or design philosophies. And thats just life.
 

Mithos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
218
User was warned for attempting to derail thread by making disingenuous comparison between sexualized characters and game difficulties.
I'll take the warning or ban if that is what will come of this.

To all the people saying if you do not like it, play another game, not all games are for you, that's ok, etc.
Tell that to the people in the 180 page long tread where they criticize sexualized female character designs, or tell it directly to Morrigan the next time she does, and see how well that goes/is received.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy/double standard that's allowed.
 

Drain You

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,986
Connecticut
I'm sure this has been mentioned but I don't feel like reading 11 pages just to say one point. Give every game an invincible toggle. We can play games how we want and if other people want to be able to play through it then they can. This negates the worry of people worrying about devs dumbing down a game or difficulty.
 

Savantcore

Member
Oct 28, 2017
880
I'm usually bang up for inclusivity in games but I do honestly believe that something would be lost in a SoulsBorne easy mode. Part of the experience is to feel overwhelmed and lost and to learn the initially obtuse mechanics, and making the combat etc. easier so that the enemies are easier to take on is watering down the game to the point that it might as well be God of War or something.

I totally understand that it's a snobbish and exclusionary stance to take, but that's how I feel. It doesn't help that I don't think that these games are actually that difficult. They just require patience and dedication that the TPS action moniker betrays. Easy mode can't help with that...
 

Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
If you added an easy mode it would ruin the experience. And while it might allow more people to play it , ultimately they might not enjoy the game at all.

Part of the experience is the tension or the reward after figuring out how to beat an enemy or pulling a clutch play. If you reduce the difficulty then you dont feel rewarded , If you could just mash and kill enemies.

This is actually an excellent vid about the consequence of reducing the skill needed. While it is mainly for fighting games and not souls games. It answers the same question that are often asked by people to make fighting games easier.

Funny you use fighting games as an example when most fighting games have the handicap option.

The problem is that the resources to tune and play test another difficulty do not get pulled from thin air. The vast majority of games have higher difficulties that are more or less unfun bullshit because of this. It's not sensible to think that when the entire game is designed and tested around a singular difficulty that that experience would do anything but go down and be watered down with those resources have to be split across multiple difficulties. Also, the game because as popular as it is because of it's difficulty (not just by being hard, but fair), and that popularity makes people act like they are owed accessibility from the series or something. No one gives a fuck that random indie game is hard as hell, you don't see these types of threads for those games.
Consumers shouldn't ask for more features from their games? Disabled people shouldn't have access to a popular videogame even if it is their hobby?

I think this is a more mature thing to do than to demand and tell developers to fuck off for not catering to certain players.
Gamers saying what they want from a game in a gaming forum is not immature, especially when, as discussed, involves accessibility and options for disabled people. There's even a thread about what Nintendo should do with Fire Emblem next, and I wouldn't complain about them asking for different stuff.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,289
Only grinding you NEED to do is grind for healing items in Bloodborne and Demon's Souls.

Both are just flat out bad mechanics. Won't see me defending that mess.

Well, you don't, really, if you go into it thinking that you need to heal every time you're low on health you'll have a lot of trouble, but if you only heal when you're having a good run it's unlikely that you'll need them. Legit one of those games where you need to save the good items for the endgame.
 

treemonkeys

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
156
I'm just saying, there's not enough story, or character exposition in souls games. It would just be a series of easy boss fights.

That, and people really underestimate how easy the souls games already are. People SL1 these games without taking any damage, that's what can be done and the game demands far less from you to complete it. You can already get away with not knowing the bosses' moveset very well and hitting it until it dies, as long as you manage to dodge an attack here and there, your good. Sure, this varies boss to boss, but most of them are not hard. I guess people just want to hit stuff until they die.
 

Gabora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,071
Sao Paulo, Brazil
What happens when an easier game isn't enough? What happens when people who don't like the story is told, and would rather the plot be spelled out to them via ordinary exposition or cutscenes, join in on the fun? Should the game be changed to accommodate their needs?

What about people who don't like backtracking? Should the games forgot their hub design and switch to stand along missions to appease them?
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
I think adding an easy mode would remove a lot of the enjoyment one gets from a souls game.

The entire game is about overcoming challenges and the feeling that follows.

Beating a Boss after dying 10 times feels fantastic and having an easy mode would diminish this.

Difficulty and challenges are built into the core mechanics of souls games and to lower that would lower the enjoyment of the experience.
 

Jimnymebob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,636
It wouldn't work, Dark Souls is designed for that difficulty, add an easy mode and you ruin the balance of the game. On all other games difficulty is an option, on Dark Souls it's an integral feature of the game, that adds up on the atmosphere, the setting, the game design, everything. You can't just add an easy mode in Dark souls without breaking what is actually a Souls game.

What about Guitar Hero?
That always had difficulties, and the guitar that came with it had 5 frets, which only really come into play on the hardest difficulty.
The games were clearly designed to be played on expert, but players were given a choice, even if it sacrificed some of their vision to allow them to enjoy it.

I know Souls is a different game, as is almost everything else, but you could realistically put easier difficulties on most titles, Souls games included.

Ruining the balance of the game is entirely the point of an easy difficulty though.

I feel like the best way to please fans who are extremely against an easier difficulty is to do it Streets of Rage 3 style, and finish the game prematurely, and encourage players to take what they've learnt and go through on the original difficulty. Like, end Dark Souls easy mode after Sen's, and maybe restrict access to the Catacombs as well.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,336
I don't expect all games to cater to me. In fact, I had a really rough time getting into Demon's Souls and Dark Souls and pretty much dropped them until I had a friend give me some tutoring. They were all the better for it.

As a parallel, I don't play grand strategy games. I'd like to mess around with conquering Europe at some point but I can't be bothered to put in the hours required. But that doesn't mean that I go around asking for a beginner version. At my level, I could play Catan or something. It's either that or spend the time to access something more interesting.
 

Laser Man

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,683
Flipside.
I tried these games (DMC/Bayo and co) and never stuck with it because the gameplay is braindead in easy mode and not interesting enough to force to come back on a higher difficulty.
As a result I avoid them now.
There's such a thing as a path of least resistence.

This can be flipped, Dark Souls has bad designed enemy encounters and you die 40 times without knowing why, no other way to play it, shelved! (that's not me but I believe that this is not an uncommon complaint)
Back in the day I started Bayonetta and and got my ass handed to me, so I lowered the difficulty, then I learned more and more and later I went up in difficulty up to the highest possible.
Dark Souls isn't a perfect game, people are different and many don't learn much by getting one shotted or from the varied attacks of the bed of chaos (lol).
To be fair, character action games and Dark Souls are extremey different in terms of length and gameplay loop. You can jump in and out of Bayonettas difficulty levels no prob because chapters are short while you are stuck inside a Dark Souls run for quite a while, starting over midway in Dark Souls doesn't sound very enticing while that's absolutely no prob in Bayonetta.
 

joecanada

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,651
Canada
Souls games with easy mode would be boring and bad.

I mean this just reflects on the game badly. you are basically saying the challenge is all the game has. no compelling story, fun mechanics, cool maps, tricks, secrets, loadouts, etc....

I don't agree. many people could enjoy it on easy mode. I did the blood echoes glitch with my second character and ranked way up right away, didn't diminish my fun at all.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,939
one of the genius things about Dark Souls is that it pretends to be far more difficult than it actually is. It's a game that rewards patience & determination more than reflexes. Don't let it trick you into thinking it's too hard for you and panicking - block often & attack when safe. Beating it is well within the grasp of anyone with basic game playing skills (and if you're on Resetera, you probably qualify).
Exactly, I've been saying this since Demon's Souls.
 

Gabora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,071
Sao Paulo, Brazil
Only grinding you NEED to do is grind for healing items in Bloodborne and Demon's Souls.

Both are just flat out bad mechanics. Won't see me defending that mess.

You don't, if you explore the chalice dungeons while normally progressing the game you should end up with a massive surplus of blood vials, in the dungeons everything drops them by the truck load. Half the items you can pick are also blood vials.
 

Swanlee

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
939
I think this is a more mature thing to do than to demand and tell developers to fuck off for not catering to certain players.

Well they aren't getting my money, love cuphead but me and my son spent 20 hrs on it and only beat a single level no amount of GIT GUD!!! was going to overcome the frustration we felt in the game even playing on the "so called" easier mode for each level. I'll never touch the game again.

As far as the Souls games goes nothing bothers me more than forced repetition and backtracking, they will also never get another dime from me.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,142
That, and people really underestimate how easy the souls games already are. People SL1 these games without taking any damage, that's what can be done and the game demands far less from you to complete it. You can already get away with not knowing the bosses' moveset very well and hitting it until it dies, as long as you manage to dodge an attack here and there, your good. Sure, this varies boss to boss, but most of them are not hard. I guess people just want to hit stuff until they die.
People who do SL1 are extremely outliers, the hardcore of the hardcore. I wouldn't mention that because SL1 is possible that it somehow negates the difficutly of these games.

I love Souls games, but they are definitely around the hardest in the AAA space right. They're not impossible mind you, but they are challenging and that's part of their appeal as well.
 

Aniki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,805
Mithos, those are not even remotely on the same level. For one, women getting objectified is infinetely more common than the lack of an easy mode in some niche games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
Why is something like this so bad? An easy mode that just blatantly trivializes encounters. Obviously something like this would work differently in Souls games, as the dodging is much more deliberate than Nier's "smash-dodge-button" style, but it's not impossible to fudge things a bit. Maybe reduce enemy damage to 1/10th normal, increase health pool, increase damage output, and call it a day. How does something like this really threaten your own experience?

We're not arguing if it's good or bad. We're just saying it's not what the devs want to include in their game, and that's basically the end of it.

Regarding Nier's L2, if you like that type of experience, you should stick with Square Enix titles, because that L2-button decision was almost certainly a Square Enix idea.

Demanding all devs cater to the same vision is just dumb. If you like that shtick, buy those games. Just because it worked in that game doesn't mean it would work in souls, and Miyazaki doesn't want to risk compromising his vision.

The only way you'll succeed for an easy mode is to convince From to give souls to someone besides Miyazaki. Namco Bandai tried that with Dark Souls 2, it didn't work out well at all. The souls audience wants Miyazaki in the seat, so 1 difficulty is here to stay for now.
 

Nimby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,221
As long as I can keep playing at traditional Souls difficulty, it doesn't bother me.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,832
JP
I'll take the warning or ban if that is what will come of this.

To all the people saying if you do not like it, play another game, not all games are for you, that's ok, etc.
Tell that to the people in the 180 page long tread where they criticize sexualized female character designs, or tell it directly to Morrigan the next time she does, and see how well that goes/is received.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy/double standard that's allowed.

Are you...equating sexualizing female characters to a game difficulty? What?
 

Deleted member 2229

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Well they aren't getting my money, love cuphead but me and my son spent 20 hrs on it and only beat a single level no amount of GIT GUD!!! was going to overcome the frustration we felt in the game even playing on the "so called" easier mode for each level. I'll never touch the game again.

As far as the Souls games goes nothing bothers me more than forced repetition and backtracking, they will also never get another dime from me.
So you dont like the games, thats fine. If thats the case no one is expecting you to buy them.
 

Gabora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,071
Sao Paulo, Brazil
I'll take the warning or ban if that is what will come of this.

To all the people saying if you do not like it, play another game, not all games are for you, that's ok, etc.
Tell that to the people in the 180 page long tread where they criticize sexualized female character designs, or tell it directly to Morrigan the next time she does, and see how well that goes/is received.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy/double standard that's allowed.

Jesus fucking Christ.

So now we gone beyond people wanting an easy mode to the lack of easy mode offending people?
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,893
An easier Souls game sorta removes the point. The combat will lose all its flavor, the atmosphere of dread will be eliminated. It may be less intimidating, but I feel like the people who didn't want to play the previous games due to the difficulty would just end up being bored by it. I know people read what I am saying as just being elitist, but the games really aren't hard, they just demand a little more thought, self-control, and caution. Anyone can beat a Souls game, you just need to approach them a little more methodically. An easy mode wouldn't increase accessibility so much as it would undermine everything that makes the series great.

I'll take the warning or ban if that is what will come of this.

To all the people saying if you do not like it, play another game, not all games are for you, that's ok, etc.
Tell that to the people in the 180 page long tread where they criticize sexualized female character designs, or tell it directly to Morrigan the next time she does, and see how well that goes/is received.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy/double standard that's allowed.

You don't think the two things are maybe SLIGHTLY different? Like, one is telling people that every genre of game isn't for every person. The other is telling people that every game isn't for every gender. You don't find the latter to be a little more troubling?
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,124
I'll take the warning or ban if that is what will come of this.

To all the people saying if you do not like it, play another game, not all games are for you, that's ok, etc.
Tell that to the people in the 180 page long tread where they criticize sexualized female character designs, or tell it directly to Morrigan the next time she does, and see how well that goes/is received.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy/double standard that's allowed.
lol what?
 

AndrewDean84

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,595
Fontana, California
I remember being banned in the Uncharted 4 thread at Gaf for saying maybe the dev shouldn't have included the super easy mode and other options that get rid of aiming, if they had to take time away and make the changes, but others were saying it was good they added it because handicapped players and slower adults could now play Uncharted 4.

Should only certain games have these special difficulties/features?
 

Uno Venova

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,858
Gamers saying what they want from a game in a gaming forum is not immature, especially when, as discussed, involves accessibility and options for disabled people. There's even a thread about what Nintendo should do with Fire Emblem next, and I wouldn't complain about them asking for different stuff.
It's all about the tone, and yes, some are being extremely immature.
Well they aren't getting my money, love cuphead but me and my son spent 20 hrs on it and only beat a single level no amount of GIT GUD!!! was going to overcome the frustration we felt in the game even playing on the "so called" easier mode for each level. I'll never touch the game again.

As far as the Souls games goes nothing bothers me more than forced repetition and backtracking, they will also never get another dime from me.
This is all fine, there are a lot of games I suck at too despite being good at souls games, I just move on.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,206
I'll take the warning or ban if that is what will come of this.

To all the people saying if you do not like it, play another game, not all games are for you, that's ok, etc.
Tell that to the people in the 180 page long tread where they criticize sexualized female character designs, or tell it directly to Morrigan the next time she does, and see how well that goes/is received.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy/double standard that's allowed.

Wait what? Lol what does Souls difficulty have to do with Morrigan?
 

treemonkeys

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
156
Consumers shouldn't ask for more features from their games? Disabled people shouldn't have access to a popular videogame even if it is their hobby?

People can ask for whatever they want, but this is asking for it to be a completely different game. And what does disability have to do with it? You'd have to be blind or one handed for it to matter. The reason this request bothers me so much, is that this mindset wins on just about everything. Every established IP gets watered down over time. Every new IP is watered down. Games used to be something you would play, learn, get better, master, and grow in. Now most of that is gone for the sake of having "experiences". That's all well and good, but the Souls proves there is still a big enough market for the old way, and some people just complain and act like everything has to be for them, when they already got almost everything.