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Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,469
Spain
Seriously? We're using the old and disabled as a crutch?

I have a one-handed friend who can only play turn-based games or who offer special options like Bayonetta 2

So, yes.

When talking about easy modes, many people just think about '' Today gamers are very lazy '' but there are people who simply have physical problems and can only enjoy them that way
 

Uno Venova

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,858
So what should happen when someone experiences the director's vision and doesn't enjoy it? Would you say that it's better for them to just stop playing the game than to play a version of the game that isn't the director's vision despite the fact that they may better enjoy that version?
If the developers aren't doing it, than yes, stop playing something you don't enjoy.
 

Gabora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,071
Sao Paulo, Brazil
Sure, if it's too hard, playing something else is fine.
A separate easier mode with some concessions does not change the core experience, though, as long as those players are kept separate from the online functionality of the base game. It could be implemented without infringing on the original design or degrading the core experience.

I can't remember if Cuphead has an easy mode or not, but it's existence would not prevent me from enjoying getting my butt kicked until I overcome the challenge of certain bosses and felt awesome about it. It's clear what the original design is.

But here's the thing, and I went in detail about it in an earlier post, what we, Dark Souls fans, really fear is that easy mode becomes what the game is based on, with hard mode being balanced later. That is when we truly lose a series we love, and feel is made for us. That's when Dark Souls with an easy mode becomes Dark Souls with a hard mode, aka shit not worth playing. That's when we lose our carefully balanced challenge (or not so careful) for damage sponges and shit enemy placement. And we all know From isn't above either, Dark Souls 2 Scholars of the First Sin had both.
 

Heisenberg726

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,065
Yes, it should.

Not being able to enjoy a game because you have aged or have mobility problems in your hands is unfair

How would invasions and summons work in an easy mode? Should all games be changed so that people with mobility problems could play them? Not to be rude, but not everything can work for everyone.
 

Deleted member 35011

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
2,185
To those saying what's the harm. Let me explain part of the beauty of Dark Souls.

Fighting Ornstein and Smough for hours, thinking they are the hardest bosses you've ever faced in a video game. Thinking you'll never ever beat it. Thinking it's absolutely impossible.

But you do end up beating it. And my god does it feel good. It's a massive rush and a feeling that only the Dark Souls games can bring.

I guarantee you that this feeling would be hugely diminished with the introduction of difficulty modes. You could try best them for an hour and then lower the difficulty and beat them. Would it feel the same? God no. I played through Dantes Inferno and loved it. It was also a hard game but the last boss stumped me and I turned the difficulty down for him and beat him. I'm still annoyed at myself for doing that.

You'd completely take away form the Dark Souls experience by introducing these things. Dark Souls was designed to be hard. It's supposed to be hard in purpose! That's how it just is. It's all part of the experience.

I fully agree. The introduction of an easy mode would actively diminish the experience - the option existing would change how the player looks at challenges from "This is what I'm stuck with" to a bored "Eh, I'll switch to easy" which would really take away the magic of the games in my opinion.

I understand that not everyone can get into the games right now but...isn't that okay? Like, there's tons of games I can't get into. I can't play competitive FPSs because of an injury in my left hand, but that's okay - they're not for me, but I wouldn't want them changed in such a way that would take away the fun from other players.

I understand why people say that there's nothing wrong with options, but a huge part of the Souls series to me is not having an option except to keep playing until you learn something. The existence of an easy mode would take away a lot from the atmosphere, in my opinion.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
So what should happen when someone experiences the director's vision and doesn't enjoy it? Would you say that it's better for them to just stop playing the game than to play a version of the game that isn't the director's vision despite the fact that they may better enjoy that version?

In that case, they find a different game by a different publisher that perhaps makes something closer to the vision they're looking for

Lords of the Fallen is the go-to classic example for easy mode discussion of souls gameplay.

This is how it's meant to be. We empower devs to control their vision that they provide to us, and that's a good thing.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
So what should happen when someone experiences the director's vision and doesn't enjoy it? Would you say that it's better for them to just stop playing the game than to play a version of the game that isn't the director's vision despite the fact that they may better enjoy that version?
If I see a movie I don't like I don't demand that the director re-edit the movie to make it into something I would enjoy more.
 

Tecnniqe

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,743
Antarctica
Yes, fuck the developers who worked for years to create an experience for players to enjoy /s.

Nah, seriously though, fuck lazy entitled people.

4L65Vzd.gif

Fuckin lmao. I'm really starting to understand some of those entitled gamers statements.
Might as well quite the full context instead of a part of a sentence, or is that only in hard mode?

Entitlement alert.

Do you watch a movie to say "Fuck the director's vision, I want this movie to be a romance" and expect him to cater to you? Nah. The movie is what it is and nothing changes it.

A developer isn't forced to cater to your vision, and you aren't forced to buy their game. Accept that not every game is for you. And move on.



Because it's not the dev's vision. Simple as that homie.
I don't play in a movie, I watch a movie. They're not the same thing because games require effort while movies don't.
Also like the others full context entirely matters and your example is none, in simply stating more options are good and if you're playing it the 3rd or 10th time you already saw their vision and experience they shouldn't have a problem allowing you to evolve that.

If the developer didn't have such a focused vision, you wouldn't be playing through the same game 3 times to begin with.
Well at least you quote full context so we can have a discussion about it.

What I'm saying is that there is no reason why only one vision should exist in a video game, especially after you already experienced it as it won't change the firth time around so allowing you to add changes to the vision is evolving it rather than removing it in my opinion, which is very positive and might even aid the developers with ideas or understanding if something should be improved beyond what they originally saw.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,621
I fully agree with you. It's a core part of the experience, and ignoring it takes away from that experience.

Having said that, I think it's okay to give the option to NOT have the core experience, as long as the game acknowledges that it is not the intended experience, and is not designed around it. What if someone likes the game for its atmosphere, feeling of exploration and lore, but dislikes the combat? Sure, the combat is the main draw of the series for many people, including me, but if someone wants to enjoy the game for something else, then I don't think it's anathema to include an option that lets that audience enjoy the game. It has nothing to do with me. In the end, it lets more people enjoy the world of Souls games, and gives you more people you can share that enjoyment with. Maybe people could get into the series in easy mode, and if they like it enough then they might want to give it another go in the normal, intended mode.

I'll go back to the Bayonetta easy mode example. Yes, making all the fights winnable by mindless mashing removes the meat of the game. But what if someone doesn't want to learn the combat system, and just wants to have fun watching crazy Bayonetta shit happen on screen without dying all the time? It gives people an option to enjoy the game in a way that is not the core experience, while not taking away from the experience of the people who like to play the game on normal or higher difficulty.
I don't think you can divorce combat and challenge from the other aspects of the game like that. Games aren't disparate elements, but an interconnected web of aspects and variables all working in sync. The combat and challenge aren't distinct elements, but are intrinsically tied to the elements of atmosphere and exploration and story. Combat and the cautious tense exploration is as much a part of the atmosphere and storytelling as the lore and visuals. The reason the atmosphere that people like so much is so effective, isn't merely because of the monster design or level design; the combat is what makes the world feel as dangerous and foreboding as the graphics and story say it is. The challenge and fear of what could be lurking around an unknown unexplored corner is what makes the exploration memorable because you have to carefully, cautiously creep through those oppressive corridors and shadowed ruins. The cycle of death and overcoming what once seemed impossible is what helps you learn the map and improve, in the same way that doing side quests in an RPG is integral to earning XP or that earning licenses and trials in Gran Turismo prepares you for harder races
 

2shd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,556
I don't know what protectionism is, but who is 'dictating' how you play games?

This is what confuses me, summoning already makes the game a joke in most cases, so what is even the point in asking the developers who aren't interested for another mode?

Offline players or solo players, I would assume.

Well, to begin with, you wasted resources to develop an easy mode. Modes don't exist in a vacuum, you would need to balance and test them.

Yeah, resources are a factor, so those are fair concerns. They would have to consider the potential new audience vs dev costs.

But really, the whole point of the Souls games is that they offer a single, focused and entirely hand-crafted experience and every resource goes into that. I'm not even sure why anyone would want to play these games with an easy mode, the difficulty (And I don't mean it just in the classical sense, the games also lack of stuff like quest icons and classical hand-holding) is like, the whole point and what makes them stand-out among modern games.

A lot of people think these game look awesome, with cool characters and lore. That is a possible initial draw to many, and maybe why they give them a shot even if they know they will struggle.
 

-Tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,543
So what should happen when someone experiences the director's vision and doesn't enjoy it? Would you say that it's better for them to just stop playing the game than to play a version of the game that isn't the director's vision despite the fact that they may better enjoy that version?
Many people dislike many things, yes.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,788
JP
This is the type of attitude I don't understand. Why? Why "praise the sun for that?" How does Dark Souls having an easy mode that makes the game more accessible for many players affect the game at all for you?

Theoretically it doesn't. Now I am going to give you the benefit if a doubt here, but surely you understand that part of the series' attraction is challenge and mystique? The metagame itself, which I would say is just as crucial to the experience as the actual game, is to interact with the community to get advice on overcoming your obstacle. Putting an easy mode on the game would take away from it because we are lazy bastards and would just go the path of least resistance. I think your argument is disingenuous because it also can be applied to all games, or any effort that requires endeavour, and more importantly where do you stop? Who determines what is "easy"? The designer? Surely, not since you think their opinion don't matter?
 

KLoWn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,890
So what should happen when someone experiences the director's vision and doesn't enjoy it? Would you say that it's better for them to just stop playing the game than to play a version of the game that isn't the director's vision despite the fact that they may better enjoy that version?
If you don't enjoy it then you don't enjoy it. Go play something else.

If you want to cheat to get your "enhanced experience then go for it, but don't demand something of the developers that they CLEARLY don't want to do. They don't owe it to anyone to piss on their vision of the game.
 

Deleted member 2229

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
I have a one-handed friend who can only play turn-based games or who offer special options like Bayonetta 2

So, yes.

When talking about easy modes, many people just think about '' Today gamers are very lazy '' but there are people who simply have physical problems and can only enjoy them that way
As unfortunate as that is, its not really the developers responsibility to create games based on a minority of people. I dont see how an easy mode would help someone with one hand when most controllers are based on having two.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
Might as well quite the full context instead of a part of a sentence, or is that only in hard mode?
I mean, your full context just makes what you said even worse
And yes, fuck the developers shoehorned vision, if I'm playing a game for the third time, maybe I want to spice it up with 100% more HP and DMG enemies, or the other way around.
It feels like you're basically saying fuck these developers for putting together a shoehorned vision so good I'm replaying it for a third time. If their vision of the game is so good you keep revisiting it then maybe their idea is the better one.
 

Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
Seriously? We're using the old and disabled as a crutch?
And what is wrong with that? There are people with disabilities. There are people who can't navigate well in 3D spaces. People get old. I already had problems like when playing Dragon Quest VIII on the PS2. Had a surgery in my arm and played that instead of Devil May Cry 3 because at least I could play one turn-based RPG.

But that was a long time ago. And personally, I'd rather more people with problems have the option to still enjoy their hobby than know that the hardcore Gamers can play something the way the developers wanted and being vocal about that. But maybe I'm being selfish because of my own experience.
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
Maybe they should have an easy mode for new players but have it lock out certain encounters etc. Hell, have them finish the game and then it says. "It was all a Dream" and NG+ is basically DS normal.

I do agree that the game should not be for everyone because it may potentially alter the way FromSoft approach the gameplay, just to cater to an easy subset of players. I am sure they could come up with a gameplay/lore reason. They do it with invading etc.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
I don't play in a movie, I watch a movie. They're not the same thing because games require effort while movies don't.
Also like the others full context entirely matters and your example is none, in simply stating more options are good and if you're playing it the 3rd or 10th time you already saw their vision and experience they shouldn't have a problem allowing you to evolve that.

Games and Movies are both extensions of the "Experience" concept. Experience isn't just a gimmick/meme word you hear at E3 press conferences all the time, it's an actual thing.

Here's a hint: Devs make the rules of the game to control the type of experience the player might have and how it develops. This seems to be the mechanic that upsets you. But it's a core mechanic that allows us as gamers to empower the devs to create a fun game. It's a good thing to have that system in place.

No taking power away from the devs please. They're the ones making less than minimum wage in sometimes awful conditions just to make a fun game. They don't need any more stress, which you are surely trying to do by demanding they cater to your game ideas.

The answer is simple: Play a different game
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,894
I think there needs to be a distinct difference between accessibility and difficulty.

Souls games are kind of difficult in spots, that changes depending who you ask, but they havent always been the most accessible and -heavily- depending on the game design thats an issue that should be looked at.

I dont think there should be an easy mode because its against the core aspects of the game. If you want an easier experience the game does provide one in the shape of summoning, which I think its brilliant. At its core, the game wants you to learn how to play it, it desperately wants you to understand it in order to give you a reward greater than you would get by just having an easy mode. If that means you will stop playing the game, thats okay! It still makes it something people talk about and appreciate it, hell, I gave up for years my first time around and I loved talking about it and finding out other players journeys through the game.
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,093
Maybe they should have an easy mode for new players but have it lock out certain encounters etc. Hell, have them finish the game and then it says. "It was all a Dream" and NG+ is basically DS normal.

I do agree that the game should not be for everyone because it may potentially alter the way FromSoft approach the gameplay, just to cater to an easy subset of players. I am sure they could come up with a gameplay/lore reason. They do it with invading etc.
ghostsgob-2.png

we realy didn't learn a thing from the past.
 

Max|Payne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,927
Portugal
What these games should have is demos. Let people try out the first 2 or 3 major areas of the game and let them decide if the game is for them or not.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,469
Spain
As unfortunate as that is, its not really the developers responsibility to create games based on a minority of people. I dont see how an easy mode would help someone with one hand when most controllers are based on having two.

My friend is an extreme case but it is also sad to think that any of us with 70 years old probably can not replay Dark Souls

If for example a deaf person wants to see a movie with subtitles, of course he is losing part of the essence but that is not the reason why we should simply deny him ALL of the movie
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131

Stuart Gipp

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,174
Cambridge, England
Yeah, there absolutely should be an easy mode. Even if it was paid DLC, maybe I'd finish more than one of the Souls games. I want to get back into Dark Souls 2 after losing my save, but I don't want to slog through what I've already done again. I want to see the rest of Bloodborne without the graft!

I finished the original Dark Souls and that was enough.

Actually thinking about it I'd just like a version of the games with no bosses. I hate the way this series does bosses. Levels can be kept the same difficulty for sure. Just, gimme a cheat to remove bosses. Disable trophies, cheevos. I don't care. Just let me not fight 'em. :p
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,299
Having an easy option takes away the thrill of completing something that's difficult imo.

If I'm having a hard time with a boss for example and I know I could just change it to easy and kill him it takes away from the experience
 

Cenauru

Dragon Girl Supremacy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,927
So what should happen when someone experiences the director's vision and doesn't enjoy it? Would you say that it's better for them to just stop playing the game than to play a version of the game that isn't the director's vision despite the fact that they may better enjoy that version?
I bought Pokemon Sun/Moon and didn't like it being heavy on exposition when all I wanted were battles, so I put it down and moved on. I bought Tekken 7, and I couldn't enjoy how it controlled compared to how much more fun it looked on streams, I refunded it after that.

So yeah, I do expect the creator's vision to be upheld, and for them to decide what community suggestions are worth incorporating in their vision. Not every game is for me, and I'll accept that, because I know somewhere else there's a game I love that I don't want changed to fit a different audience, and the games I disliked have their own audiences that don't want their favorite game to be changed to fit me when it's built for that audience.
 
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Aniki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,791
But here's the thing, and I went in detail about it in an earlier post, what we, Dark Souls fans, really fear is that easy mode becomes what the game is based on, with hard mode being balanced later. That is when we truly lose a series we love, and feel is made for us. That's when Dark Souls with an easy mode becomes Dark Souls with a hard mode, aka shit not worth playing. That's when we lose our carefully balanced challenge (or not so careful) for damage sponges and shit enemy placement. And we all know From isn't above either, Dark Souls 2 Scholars of the First Sin had both.
This is a reason i can understand and relate to. As if this were to happen, it would suck. Also what do you you mean with easy mode in Scholar? That the enemies stopped respawning after you killed them a set amount of times?
 

Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
So what you're basically saying is that you believe every single game should have a walking simulator "tourist" mode? Why?

There are a load of purpose built very well crafted walking simulators out there for people to play. The souls games would be terrible walking simulators.
Because some people like the lore, the music, the art direction. And let's not kid ourselves: when someone wants to cheat, they usually do (even online).

And maybe they would be horrible "walking simulators", sure, but it wouldn't hurt to have the option. The games are very popular and a lot of people like to talk about the lore. Plus, it's fun to wreck the games with broken status. Or to test different builds. Or to just play around the world.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,293
All right, I found an old post I wrote in August where I went into details as to why I don't want an easy mode in Souls games (and other types of games that wouldn't benefit from "more options") whilst being OK with easy modes in story-driven games. Copy/pasting it with some slight edits:
-----

"More options are always good" has always been a bogus statement. More options are good for SOME types of games, but not all. I get annoyed by how this statement is almost always presented as obvious fact. It might seem intuitively true at first, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny whatsoever.

First of all, adding difficulty levels is not trivial dev work. Some games in particular require quite the fine-tuning and balancing effort. Other games are fun and shine through their game design mechanics, which, if you tone down the difficulty too much, will be rendered essentially meaningless. I'm fine with devs deciding they don't want to spend that kind of effort and focus their dev resources on other things. And anyone saying "it's just 5 minutes of dev work" and the like are showing their crass ignorance, really.

A perfect example of that is actually in a game that doesn't have an Easy mode: Shadow of Mordor. The game's most hyped and "innovative" mechanic was the Nemesis system. But the core game itself was so brain-dead easy, that the Nemesis system was almost 100% useless. I was sloppy/impatient once or twice in the beginning and died and saw the Nemesis system in action, then I never died again for 90% of the game, and never experienced the Nemesis system again. It didn't help that the game was overall pretty dull, with absolutely brain-dead combat and climbing and stealth that was never really needed (because, once again, the game was too easy so that there was no incentive to use stealth except maybe to mix things up a bit). I can't imagine how even more boring it would be on an hypothetical Easy mode.

As for Souls games: it's not that the difficulty is the only reason to play these games, no. But the challenge they pose is still essential to what makes them great games. People praise the atmosphere, level design, enemy/encounter/boss design, combat mechanics, etc. for a reason. But all those things crumble if there is no serious threat to the player. Carefully placed ambushes that lurk around any corner will make the player nervous and hesitant to just barge in carelessly, adding to the tense atmosphere. If those ambushes or traps posed no real threat, that tension is gone*. A scary-ass boss, supposed to be a primeval monster/guardian that devour any hapless adventurer it comes across, loses a lot of its menacing feel if it's trivial to destroy (good ol' ludo-narrative dissonance anyone?). The depth and wealth of combat customization and arsenal at your disposal become irrelevant if you can just mash R1 with any weapon and win every encounter this way, but when you know you need every edge, you might consider using buffing items, support magic, projectiles to lure enemies or items to distract them and stealth past them.

And of course the whole "sense of triumph at overcoming great obstacles" theme that is basically the core concept of these games and is even directly integrated into the game's story and lore would lose any meaning if the games were trivial.

And then there is, of course, that little detail about multiplayer, which would require server segregation and thinning the player pools. No thanks. Bad enough that some players still play online despite "hating invasions" and then pull the plug on you the very second you invade. xD

So, to re-iterate: we play Souls games for their great combat mechanics, level design, dark fantasy art direction (including enemy and boss visual designs), encounter design, and atmosphere. The difficulty ties into all of that; if you remove it completely, each of these aspect will suffer. It is not the case for a game like, say, Uncharted, where the core aspects are the pulpy, cinematic, Indiana Jones adventure feel. Or even for a game like Horizon Zero Dawn, which is again a very story-driven adventure. Some games can certainly benefit from "more options". Souls games, or super-hardcore games like Super Meat Boy, don't, and I'm glad From agrees with me.

Not every game is for everyone and that's OK. Making everything as accessible as possible leads to blander, diluted content and focus group bullshit.

* This cute, humorous little comic highlights the point well:
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,093
Is Cuphead boring and bad and less satisfying because that offers players the opportunity to play through simplified encounters before they complete the normal difficulty (which is necessary to beat the game)?



Yeah, it gives players the opportunity to have something resembling a difficulty curve, rather than baptism by fire.
DS 1 isn't too difficult until blightown, with only the capra demon as a realy step difficulty spike, other than that the first areas are pretty easy overall.
 

KLoWn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,890
What these games should have is demos. Let people try out the first 2 or 3 major areas of the game and let them decide if the game is for them or not.
I don't think that would change the fact that people who are to lazy to learn boss patterns etc still would complain about actually having to learn, adapt, and pay attention to the game.
 

Leafhopper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,047
What these games should have is demos. Let people try out the first 2 or 3 major areas of the game and let them decide if the game is for them or not.
Depending on the game the first 2 or 3 areas of the game is like a third of the game.

You are right though if they had demos of some sort maybe it would help but, I think people would still demand an easy mode either way.
 

Res

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,601
For those having trouble with bosses and don't want to deal with them, you could just summon people to help you
 

Zone

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
90
So what should happen when someone experiences the director's vision and doesn't enjoy it? Would you say that it's better for them to just stop playing the game than to play a version of the game that isn't the director's vision despite the fact that they may better enjoy that version?

Move on and find something that they do enjoy? It's really not that difficult. Not every game is for everyone.
 

Gabora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,071
Sao Paulo, Brazil
This is a reason i can understand and relate to. As if this were to happen, it would suck. Also what do you you mean with easy mode in Scholar? That the enemies stopped respawning after you killed them a set amount of times?

I guess I should've been clearer. I didn't mean there was an easy mode, I meant to say that From isn't impervious to fucking up enemy placements. Scholars of the First Sin had alot of really bad enemy placement in it.