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Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,641
Wait, I was always under the impression that the Max/Shellback duo wrote a lot of the most famous Taylor Swift hits of the last decade.
Is the argument that Taylor swift wrote the basis and lyrics for the songs and Max/Shellback just helped make it into a "pop song"?

I'm trying to google this but I'm not finding many sources. Someone clarify for me the songwriting process here.
She is literally on tape playing an acoustic version of Blank Space, her biggest hit, to Max for the first time:



That's how a majority of her hits came to be and it's a very pure form of songwriting - she writes a skeletal version of her songs on guitar and adds more layers of instrumentation with her producers in the studio.
 

Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
I think this emphasis on who writes their own stuff is kind of dumb in the first place. Like 98% of music in human history was written or composed by one person and performed by somebody else.

Writing/composing and performing are two different talents, and it's kind of weird that we act like only being good at one of them means you're some kind of fraud.
 

gosublime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,429
Songwriting credits are listed in order of contribution eg. The writer who wrote the most goes first followed by their cowriters. Taylor is listed first in every single song she has ever released. You sound dumb.

That might be the case a lot of the time (and I think is true for Taylor given how she writes music) but it isn't necessarily true that the writer who wrote the most has to be listed first - Paul Mcartney has had a bit of an issue over this for the last few years, flipping the credits on some songs to Mcartney Lennon instead of the usual Lennon/Mcartney
 

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,275
I never get why these things always get blown out of proportion. Someone made a mistake, he got called out and now he apologizes. This should be the end of it, move on.
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,131
She is literally on tape playing an acoustic version of Blank Space, her biggest hit, to Max for the first time:



That's how a majority of her hits came to be and it's a very pure form of songwriting - she writes a skeletal version of her songs on guitar and adds more layers of instrumentation with her producers in the studio.


Awesome, this is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for.

It's not unreasonable to assume that Taylor relationship with Max would be the same as it is with many other artists, where Max brings "complete" songs for artists to sing. Awesome to see it go from Taylor demo to what it was released in the end.

Thanks for spending the time to share with me that video, i appreciate it.
 

weekev

Is this a test?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,213
As talented as Albarn is, he's always been an arsehole- easily the least likeable member of Blur.
Pretty much what I was going to post. I don't like that Alex went on to be a tory. But I do like that he took his Blur money and decided to run a cheese farm with it and now he lives in a house a very big house in the country.
 

MadLaughter

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,093
I never get why these things always get blown out of proportion. Someone made a mistake, he got called out and now he apologizes. This should be the end of it, move on.

Sure, if it had been a real apology. A mandatory component of a good apology is accepting responsibility, which he didn't because he blamed the writer/article.
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,131
Songwriting credits are listed in order of contribution eg. The writer who wrote the most goes first followed by their cowriters. Taylor is listed first in every single song she has ever released. You sound dumb.

Just to clarify this isn't necessarily true. Credits appear in whatever order they are published as, and if the publisher is not careful (or band members are egomaniacs lol) credits don't always reflect reality like that. Spoken from experience.
 

gosublime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,429
That goes to the guy with the glasses who bullied Nardwuar.

Off topic but Rowntree has apologised for that - pretty much a proper apology as well - and Nardwuar accepted it. Here's his apology


There has been some speculation as to why I accepted a recent blog comment linking to a clip of me bullying the Canadian journalist Nardwuar in 2003.


 The reason is, that I can't take the credit for the things I've done that I'm proud of, without taking the blame for the things that I'm ashamed of.

And this is definitely one of the things I'm ashamed of.

There's no excuse for my bullying, and the reason I did it is perhaps nearly as sordid.

As I've written in the past I became addicted to cocaine during the nineties. Now I've no idea if it has this effect on anyone else, but for me, the day after a cocaine binge I'd sometimes fly into a murderous rage, and take it out on whoever happened to be around. In this case, it happened to be the journalist.

To be clear, Nardwuar didn't do anything to provoke me. I sent an apology to him the next day, but I didn't hear anything back from him, so I assume he didn't accept it.

These days I keep a clip of the interview on my phone. I don't drink, smoke or take drugs, and if from time to time I wonder if I'm doing the right thing treading this (sometimes rather lonely) path I play it, and have the answer.
 

Cheesebu

Wrong About Cheese
Member
Sep 21, 2020
6,176
I never get why these things always get blown out of proportion. Someone made a mistake, he got called out and now he apologizes. This should be the end of it, move on.
He called his own words "clickbait" in his apology. That's why the talentless fucking moron is getting dragged.
 

Peru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,126
I think this is what Taylor faced a lot early in her career, and why it's so infuriating when the old false assumptions pop up again.. now that everyone surely should know she's a songwriter first and foremost:





And I think also Taylor made the 'Speak Now' album without any co-writers partly to prove herself and get rid of any potential comments like that.
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,264
The circle-jerk about writing one's own songs I'll never get.

I'm in two minds on that.

On one hand, if you consider the history of classical music, Tin Pan Alley, folk, etc., you could argue that the majority of music throughout history seems passed down rather than written by the performer, at least until recently. Equally, there is a long history of collaborations.

On the other hand, a song is a particularly powerful and personal art form, and knowing the performer wrote it adds some authenticity to their performance. Given the wealth of stuff out there made by committees of marketers (not just music), I don't blame anyone for finding value in that.
 

Miles Iz Ded

Member
Oct 28, 2017
320
Damon has form for this sort of thing. I don't think it's necessarily sexism. Years ago I remember an interview in the NME where he was talking about being in the studio with Tricky. Said there was some other guys in there (producers I think) who basically 'are Tricky' and would come up with all the music. Tricky then dropped the Damon collab from his album.
 

Valentonis

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 8, 2020
1,032
I don't have any skin in this game, I don't listen to much Swift or Albarn. But seeing someone get their ass beat in the qrts for being loud and wrong is a good time
 
Oct 30, 2017
5,495
Damon is an ass usually and also usually really boring live. I've seen him with Blur, gorillaz, good, the bad and the Queen, etc. always boring.
I really dislike Taylor Swift. Her songs are nails on a chalkboard to me. But she was right to call him out.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,561
Of all of the fanbases I straight up never would want to cross, the Swifties rank right near the top.

This dude is in for a rough couple of months lol

CD shops are gone and dead in my country but during the last vestiges prior to their death the only people I saw queuing to buy albums on release day were Swifties and Kpop fans. Might as well shut down his socials for the next year or so.
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,688
I think this is what Taylor faced a lot early in her career, and why it's so infuriating when the old false assumptions pop up again.. now that everyone surely should know she's a songwriter first and foremost:





And I think also Taylor made the 'Speak Now' album without any co-writers partly to prove herself and get rid of any potential comments like that.

Thank you for sharing these; they explain things well. Maybe Albarn wasn't meaning to be sexist, but what he was saying aligns perfectly with it. He was being an ignorant cunt regardless. And this bullshit about always having to prove your work is your own as a woman, and it's not really secretly some man, happens in every industry too, not just music. I have to say, you can really tell who the men are in this thread who have never had to experience that.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
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Oct 29, 2017
8,973
I'm not a fan of either, but I think the one who has made a career trucking along doing her thing is inspiring, the other one had to hide behind cartoon characters to get any traction musically in the U.S. so maybe his opinion isn't worth what he thinks it is.
 

Deleted member 37151

Account closed at user request
Banned
Jan 1, 2018
2,038
I don't get why everyone constantly has to bow to Taylor Swift. Why this journalist brought her up out of nothing in this interview. She's basically female solo Coldplay. Just bland mainstream pop.
 

FinFunnels

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,610
Seattle
I've loved the Gorillaz ever since I was in like the 8th grade, but this was a massively dumb thing to say and his reply to Taylor's tweet is bad, too.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,131
most pop acts have a vague role as "song writer" and he's just being real about it.

it just sounds more salacious than it really is when you throw specific names in the mix. some actually do have a hand in song writing, some are full-on studio creations, but most fall into a murky middle ground in this regard
 
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LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,664
Of all of the fanbases I straight up never would want to cross, the Swifties rank right near the top.

This dude is in for a rough couple of months lol
5Th2.gif
 

Dizzy Ukulele

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,013
I don't get why everyone constantly has to bow to Taylor Swift. Why this journalist brought her up out of nothing in this interview. She's basically female solo Coldplay. Just bland mainstream pop.

Coldplay is an interesting point of comparison. All Coldplay writing credits are split between the four band members but I question if there are four songwriters in Coldplay or just one very generous one.
 

Deleted member 37151

Account closed at user request
Banned
Jan 1, 2018
2,038
Coldplay is an interesting point of comparison. All Coldplay writing credits are split between the four band members but I question if there are four songwriters in Coldplay or just one very generous one.
I think they probably do what a lot of bands do : someone comes with the core of a song, and they probably jam out the rest of the song toghter, the drummer adding fills, the bassist adding bass etc.

Most Blur songs are credited as Alburn/Coxon/Rowtree/CheeseMan. They worked a similar way to this, but I think the core of the song was nearly always brought in by Alburn or Coxon. Mostly Alburn. And he had the most hand in producing the albums.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,539
I'm not a fan of either, but I think the one who has made a career trucking along doing her thing is inspiring, the other one had to hide behind cartoon characters to get any traction musically in the U.S. so maybe his opinion isn't worth what he thinks it is.

Seriously though, what in the world does that even mean. What is Albarn possibly doing other than "his own thing"? Not even mentioning how instrumental he is with Gorilaz to put a spotlight on relatively unknown voices or groups. That's auch a weird thing to say. Every single Album he produces has so much weird, weird shit going in. He went from "Plastic Beach" to "Humanz" just because he wanted to! :D

I don't know many other musicians right now who do things as wild and different and varied as Albarn, from Gorillaz to Blur to Solo Albums to projects like The Good, The Bad & The Queen.

You can and should blast him for this statement, but some things in this thread are pretty ridiculous.

And yes, I realize what Avatar I have :p
 
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Hakunon

Member
Oct 11, 2018
311
most pop acts have a vague role as "song writer" and he's just being real about it.

it just sounds more salacious than it really is when you throw specific names in the mix. some actually do have a hand in song writing, some are full-on studio creations, but most fall into a murky middle ground in this regard

But the thing about Taylor Swift is that she is THE singer-songwriter of pop nowadays so her name is important here. She built her career on that, and there are numerous receipts proving her involvement in music creatiin. The issue with him and some posters here is that they hear the name Taylor Swift, a very successful woman in music, and automatically assume that she must be a label puppet, lacking in talent and other things generally associated with pop stars. They are bullshit as well, and I'm far from Swift's fan, but a quick look through her album credits in Wikipedia can reveal that she wrote an entire album by herself when she was 20 and is more than capable of making another one but she obviously likes collaborating with various people.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
Seriously though, what in the world does that even mean. What is Albarn possibly doing other than "his own thing"? Not even mentioning how instrumental he is with Godzilla's to put a spotlight on relatively unknown voices or groups.

I don't know many other musicians right now who do things as wild and different and varied as Albarn, from Gorillaz to Blur to Solo Albums to projects like The Good, The Bad & The Queen.

You can and should blast him for this statement, but some things in this thread are pretty ridiculous.

And yes, I realize what Avatar I have :p
I don't think this is the place but I feel we could actually have a constructive discussion on this subject. I am not saying he is not talented or attacking him as a person. Am noting as talented as he is and even with success he has always, especially in the U.S. been back to blur proclaimed to be the next big thing and failed. Not untalented and obviously in general very successful in life and comfort. But never the BIG star he kept being proclaimed to be. So attacking her the way he did is pretty ironic, tell me you can at least see my point even if you don't agree.
 

Big Powder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,199
Have to agree that a lot of the posts in this thread are kind of silly. I do think there is a merit to discussing how the music industry has long made a lot of toxic assumptions about female songwriters and how Albarn played into this, but people downplaying his achievements too are making it kind of clear that they don't really know anything about him (which is fair, you don't have to to criticize him, but Albarn is one of those musicians that has worked on a lot of projects and is one heck of a creative dude).

I think this can be simply chalked up to "he shouldn't have said it", and we have no idea if he's reached out to Taylor individually to apologize more profusely. I bet they'll be collaborating on a Gorillaz track in the next few years. Count on it.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
She was a big fan of Albarn, you Swifties are gonna get kicked out of the club for mocking her judgement.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
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Oct 29, 2017
8,973
Have to agree that a lot of the posts in this thread are kind of silly. I do think there is a merit to discussing how the music industry has long made a lot of toxic assumptions about female songwriters and how Albarn played into this, but people downplaying his achievements too are making it kind of clear that they don't really know anything about him (which is fair, you don't have to to criticize him, but Albarn is one of those musicians that has worked on a lot of projects and is one heck of a creative dude).

I think this can be simply chalked up to "he shouldn't have said it", and we have no idea if he's reached out to Taylor individually to apologize more profusely. I bet they'll be collaborating on a Gorillaz track in the next few years. Count on it.
I don't think anyone serious is judging his talent ( the one person who called him talentless and said he deserved to get dragged, seen enough of their posts to not care what they say) but it's kind of fucked up he said that, not just because Taylor is a Woman, or Pop, but because it sounds like he is still bitter he never broke for all his talent. Also ran man in lots of also ran bands. Talented as fuck but I seriously think he is bitter that it doesn't equate fame, which he has grasped for and missed multiple times, with both Blur and the Gorillaz.
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,641


Lmao the President of Chile weighed in and defended Taylor

You know you're powerful as fuck when foreign heads of state come to your defense, poor Damon
 

Hopewell

Member
Jan 17, 2018
513
Not a huge fan of her I admit but what Damon Alban said was stupid as she seems to be way more involved in writing her songs than a lot of pop stars.

But reading this thread and the twitter thread with people acting like Taylor Swift is their defenceless sister or something who also is the greatest living songwriter is making me laugh.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
He has multiple platinum albums what are you talking about

How are you defining 'fame' here?

Yeah, i don't get the bitter about fame stuff.

He's taken a lot of winding backroads musically, i don't think that would bother him, and then he knows he's made life difficult for himself with things like the Heroin addiction etc.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
He has multiple platinum albums what are you talking about

How are you defining 'fame' here?
Again I am not disparaging him or his career. He is probably more successful than most working musicians. But he was set to peak twice in the way Swift did and failed twice, with both Blur and the Gorillaz. And he just for all his talent and connections assumes and say this of her when there is more than enough documented proof of what she contributes to her music ( and again I don't have a dog in the fight, I don't listen to or care for the music from either one) so it sounds like bitter fruit. If his accomplishments matter so much and he is so talented maybe he should have a slightly deeper read on her. He sounds a lot like a Facebook poster in any thread about modern music talking about how it used to be.
 

purseowner

From the mirror universe
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,444
UK
Again I am not disparaging him or his career. He is probably more successful than most working musicians. But he was set to peak twice in the way Swift did and failed twice, with both Blur and the Gorillaz. And he just for all his talent and connections assumes and say this of her when there is more than enough documented proof of what she contributes to her music ( and again I don't have a dog in the fight, I don't listen to or care for the music from either one) so it sounds like bitter fruit. If his accomplishments matter so much and he is so talented maybe he should have a slightly deeper read on her. He sounds a lot like a Facebook poster in any thread about modern music talking about how it used to be.
'failed' on what metric? I sincerely doubt Damon Albarn cares about the level of success enjoyed by Taylor Swift or compares it to himself.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,131
why pick Taylor Swift then? she's probably the worst big pop act to call out in that regard.

i think he just heard "taylor swift" and made a blanket statement on how pop music is generally written

yeah he kind of got caught with his pants down about how ignorant he is of taylor swift's work in particular, but i dunno if that's "calling her out"
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
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Oct 29, 2017
8,973
'failed' on what metric? I sincerely doubt Damon Albarn cares about the level of success enjoyed by Taylor Swift or compares it to himself.
Cmon, I have explained through multiple posts exactly what I mean, and he cares enough to shit on her. Lots of people in this thread breaking their backs to carry water for the dude who shouldn't need it if it's that not important. Clown Shoes.
 

Moogle

Top Mog
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,768
Songwriting credits are listed in order of contribution eg. The writer who wrote the most goes first followed by their cowriters. Taylor is listed first in every single song she has ever released. You sound dumb.

No, they don't sound dumb. You're just overconfident in your false belief that primary songwriters are always listed first.
 

Based0ne

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,258
USA
Cmon, I have explained through multiple posts exactly what I mean, and he cares enough to shit on her. Lots of people in this thread breaking their backs to carry water for the dude who shouldn't need it if it's that not important. Clown Shoes.
I mean everyone looks like a clown defending Taylor?
 
Oct 25, 2017
614
Newcastle, UK
Again I am not disparaging him or his career. He is probably more successful than most working musicians. But he was set to peak twice in the way Swift did and failed twice, with both Blur and the Gorillaz. And he just for all his talent and connections assumes and say this of her when there is more than enough documented proof of what she contributes to her music ( and again I don't have a dog in the fight, I don't listen to or care for the music from either one) so it sounds like bitter fruit. If his accomplishments matter so much and he is so talented maybe he should have a slightly deeper read on her. He sounds a lot like a Facebook poster in any thread about modern music talking about how it used to be.
Are you only counting success as breaking America, because it can't be overstated how hugely successful Blur are in the UK. Like straight to number 1 with every album, beating Oasis in the singles charts during a big "Blur Vs Oasis" front page media battle, headlining festivals for years huge. I don't think bitterness about fame has anything to do with this, he's just in a different music circle and has dumb, out of touch views about pop, and when it was casually brought up in conversation he said something wrong and stupid and that's it.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
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Oct 29, 2017
8,973
I mean everyone looks like a clown defending Taylor?
?
Are you only counting fame as breaking America, because it can't be overstated how hugely successful Blur are in the UK. Like straight to number 1 with every album, beating Oasis in the singles charts during a big "Blur Vs Oasis" front page media battle, headlining festivals for years huge. I don't think bitterness about fame has anything to do with this, he's just in a different music circle and has dumb, out of touch views about pop, and when it was casually brought up in conversation he said something wrong and stupid and that's it.
Obviously. I was just trying to make a small point about the comment and what I factually know about the two acts (again I don't care for listen to either.) and how that shapes my opinion. And suddenly I am dogpiled for it, and forced to explain to moving goalposts because someone feels a way about one of two artists that are both extremely successful in different ways but the comment he made relates to how I think of him and maybe he is not as a spotless as could be. I know as a musician myself if I ever had reached the status to be interviewed and the person asked me about her I would say " what about her". As quick as that was it's obviously something he has thought about.
 

Based0ne

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,258
USA
?

Obviously. I was just trying to make a small point about the comment and what I factually know about the two acts (again I don't care for listen to either.) and how that shapes my opinion. And suddenly I am dogpiled for it, and forced to explain to moving goalposts because someone feels a way about one of two artists that are both extremely successful in different ways but the comment he made relates to how I think of him and maybe he is not as a spotless as could be. I know as a musician myself if I ever had reached the status to be interviewed and the person asked me about her I would say " what about her". As quick as that was it's obviously something he has thought about.
I understand and I would do the same. These comments with the talentless crap make no sense and now comparing his fame and how he's not as famous, etc? Dude is stupid for making the comment, just leave it at that.