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Zhukov

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
2,641
Huh.

Alright. Alright.

I was not expecting that. I thought they'd avoid doing anything like that to avoid the accompanying controversy.

Remember when Battletech got hated on for allowing the player to choose a gender neutral option? Imagine that with a game as high profile as Cyberpunk.

...

Hmm. I wonder if there are waterfalls of salty tears to found... elsewhere on the internet. I have a thirst.
 
OP
OP
vestan

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,611
Hmm. I wonder if there are waterfalls of salty tears to found... elsewhere on the internet. I have a thirst.
It's already happening with the usual suspects, turning on their treasured developer CDPR who they thought could do no wrong and believed wouldn't fall for the evils of the SJWs!!111
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
I think my main takeaway is that while this is great (or at least promising) on its own, the fact that it's being implemented 10 months before release is an implication that the game won't be able to extensively build on the concept of a trans protagonist. And I mean it sounds like the game could still be inclusive of trans identities, but it's a bit of a shame that they couldn't build a part of V's personality around it. But then again how do you quantify something like transness in the game (especially with a 'fluid' character creator), I don't know.
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
This is great, but jesus, as if the game wasn't ambitious enough already, they will be offering now this.
Are there any games out there with non binary options? Specially RPGs with story driven by choices?

If they manage to do it, wow
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
This is great, but jesus, as if the game wasn't ambitious enough already, they will be offering now this.
Are there any games out there with non binary options? Specially RPGs with story driven by choices?

If they manage to do it, wow
Major AAA RPGs? I can't think of many at all besides the recent South Park if we even call that AAA and not AA.

For smaller games on Steam I see them all the time, particularly in text adventures.

edit: actually did South park even have non binary? I just recall they gave various options.
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
Major AAA RPGs? I can't think of many at all besides the recent South Park if we even call that AAA and not AA.

For smaller games on Steam I see them all the time, particularly in text adventures.

edit: actually did South park even have non binary? I just recall they gave various options.
Yeah, but considering the amount of choices and interactions that they are planning for the game ...
A male and female options were already ambitious. Adding a third option is crazy
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
I wonder what they mean with the voice options they're hinting at. Are they talking about, like, voice modulation or something?
 

YaBish

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,340
vestan Thank you for the detailed OP.

Hope that this can be a real conversation starter at the studio.
 

Sargerus

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,830
Its great to add this choice but i do wonder if character interactions will be meaningful enough.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
This is great, but jesus, as if the game wasn't ambitious enough already, they will be offering now this.
Are there any games out there with non binary options? Specially RPGs with story driven by choices?
If we are talking about big budget RPGs with a lot of dialogue choices, I think Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 would be the first one that do.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
This situation really highlights the importance of discourse with issues like this, and the necessity in confronting development teams and corporations on their direction. It's a reminder that while it's easy to brand entire corporations as transphobic/bigoted/racist/etc (and I'm not contesting any specific incident of this), it's also important to remember that most games these days are developed by an enormous bastion of individuals of varied perspectives and beliefs, many of which are doubtlessly "allied" against what might seem like corporate level shortsightedness and bias.

Continuing the conversation and expressing the need for change can, in the right cases, spark conversation within these groups where the people who are your allies are given a more prominent voice. It gives them opportunity to confront the absence of features they feel would make the experience more inclusive, and the open discourse within the community encourages senior decision makers to see from a perspective they might otherwise not have.

Obviously proof is in execution and, like I said in my previous post, I don't expect this to at best be anything more than having the options to play as a trans / nonbinary character and the game to flow accordingly. But the conversation sparking at CDPR because of the open discourse and critique elsewhere, and them stating they will make an effort to include these features, is exactly the point.

It might be late in development, but it happening in a AAA title gives voice not just to the trans / nonbinary community, but the developers at CDPR who've felt this content should be included and are now in a position to see it through.
 

SuzanoSho

Member
Dec 25, 2017
1,466
People keep saying this but this idea that this is inherent to the genre isn't really true

Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen some universal standard or plain definition for the cyberpunk "genre", so it seems weird that this is suddenly being pushed as an inheritance of the concept. I'm more concerned that trans representation isn't a standard considering the real world, which every single one of these concepts draw inspiration from, is full of trans people...

I would like to add that this could very well be due to my limited exposure to the concept in comparison to (virtually) anyone else...
 

spookyduzt

Drive-In Mutant
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,836
Sounds like it's limited to physical characteristic sliders, and voice options. That's not nearly good enough. If they want to give the player the option to be trans, then that needs to be a selectable option that plays into the character's story and the world itself. Make it a part of who they are, and show the player how trans people struggle with family, relationships, transitioning, bigotry, etc. Show what kind of effect those fetishized in-game advertisements have on the character. Show the player why those ads are as bad as you say they are. Humanize trans people, CDPR. Be an ally here.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Did this just become the first AAA to confirm trans and non-binary player options? I know on a slightly smaller publishing scale there was the great support of Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines 2, so kudos there
 

plau

Member
Oct 30, 2017
235
Sounds like it's limited to physical characteristic sliders, and voice options. That's not nearly good enough. If they want to give the player the option to be trans, then that needs to be a selectable option that plays into the character's story and the world itself. Make it a part of who they are, and show the player how trans people struggle with family, relationships, transitioning, bigotry, etc. Show what kind of effect those fetishized in-game advertisements have on the character. Show the player why those ads are as bad as you say they are. Humanize trans people, CDPR. Be an ally here.
I'm sure most of the game will be pretty similar regardless of choices made in the character creator, with the gender having next to no effect in terms of story and how people interact with the player. I don't think it's realistic to do this the way some people seem to hope.
 
OP
OP
vestan

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,611
Did this just become the first AAA to confirm trans and non-binary player options? I know on a slightly smaller publishing scale there was the great support of Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines 2, so kudos there
What do you mean by "confirm"?

Saints Row: The Third lets players make transgender and non-binary characters.
 

Gloomz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,402
This is awesome and a step in the right direction. Kudos to CDPR.

I'm curious if this thread will be met with 100k views and 50 pages like the opposite and recent 'CDPR fucked up' threads.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
Sounds like it's limited to physical characteristic sliders, and voice options. That's not nearly good enough. If they want to give the player the option to be trans, then that needs to be a selectable option that plays into the character's story and the world itself. Make it a part of who they are, and show the player how trans people struggle with family, relationships, transitioning, bigotry, etc. Show what kind of effect those fetishized in-game advertisements have on the character. Show the player why those ads are as bad as you say they are. Humanize trans people, CDPR. Be an ally here.
You gotta be realistic about these things. Unless you're making a AAA game specifically about that topic, it would be wildly cost ineffective to go to the degree that you're proposing. And at the end of the day, you're still making a product.

Of course, if that's where they're choosing to go with this, all the better. But to not only expect it, but also to be apparently disappointed with the effort they do put in? That's kinda eh.
 

cvbas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
Brazil
I'm sure most of the game will be pretty similar regardless of choices made in the character creator, with the gender having next to no effect in terms of story and how people interact with the player. I don't think it's realistic to do this the way some people seem to hope.

Yeah. It's great to be able to create the character you want to, but this still won't be a game about being trans/nb. As it won't be a game about being a cis-woman or a cis-men. I doubt there'll be any kind of quest exclusive to one gender of character. Expecting any more than a few differences in how you'll be treated and who you'll be able to romance because the gender of your character is just unrealistic.
 

Trickster

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,533
Pretty awesome if they actually do it. I'm curious how they would make it work in dialogue though.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,339
It's already happening with the usual suspects, turning on their treasured developer CDPR who they thought could do no wrong and believed wouldn't fall for the evils of the SJWs!!111

Which is amusing because despite that criticisms that some have had for them, CDPR have been trying to be more socially conscious for a long time. Just look at how they treated women in TW1 compared to TW/2TW3. Where you literally got collectible cards after having sex with a character. When the sequels rolled around they treated those intimate relationships with a lot more respect.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
Sounds like it's limited to physical characteristic sliders, and voice options. That's not nearly good enough. If they want to give the player the option to be trans, then that needs to be a selectable option that plays into the character's story and the world itself. Make it a part of who they are, and show the player how trans people struggle with family, relationships, transitioning, bigotry, etc. Show what kind of effect those fetishized in-game advertisements have on the character. Show the player why those ads are as bad as you say they are. Humanize trans people, CDPR. Be an ally here.

I don't disagree with you, but given that this is only being discussed now and 10 months away from launch (I suspect it'll be delayed, but that's another matter entirely), I think what you're asking for is not going to happen. It's clear this wasn't the focus from the start (which warrants criticism), so they're doing the best with the time available, and they're not going to delay the game extensively to add trans specific story arcs.

And while it's a temperamental discussion, I do think the nature of the setting does make the exploration of trans and nonbinary representative a little more...inclusive, I guess, than what might happen for a game exploring these themes from a modern perspective. An argument could be made that the struggle of coming out to family, relationships, and transitioning would be less of an issue in this universe due to its naturally more inclusive and ambiguous setting. The confusion for many has been exactly that; a cyberpunk title without nonbinary / trans options to build the character is a bit odd, because it'd probably be seen as commonplace.

I'm not excusing this, mind you. Just thinking both logistically (it is what it is, unfortunately), and contextually for the setting. Bloodlines 2 I feel is a better template to see those issues properly explored, as despite its Vampiric lore the setting is modern day and playing as a trans / nonbinary character (which we know is an option) would be more primed for a modern exploration of those implications.
 

Surface of Me

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,207
I don't know why people think they are just starting this right now, the OP says they've avoided character creation questions in general up till now. This very well could have been in the works and not known simply because we knew nothing about character creation.
 
OP
OP
vestan

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,611
Don't kid yourself, buddy. You were going to get the game anyways.

People are naturally going to bring up bullshit where they see it and the onus is on CDPR to prove they're making concessions, especially when you've got their history in mind. You can be excited for a game and positive about it while recognising and even criticising certain elements or decisions which is what plenty of people have been doing on Era. They're not mutually exclusive. Just because CP2077 isn't being showered with blind praise on Era doesn't mean it's not okay to be positive or excited for it. Let's leave it at that.
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,543
It's already happening with the usual suspects, turning on their treasured developer CDPR who they thought could do no wrong and believed wouldn't fall for the evils of the SJWs!!111
The gamergate subreddit it's trying to convince itself that actually they don't mean adding transgender options, just a very deep character creator.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
Its great to add this choice but i do wonder if character interactions will be meaningful enough.
What changes? Most RPGs with a choice to choose between male and female already have large parts of dialogue that's gender neutral, using they, etc. This isn't really that big of a change... if Pokemon can do it, I'm sure CDPR can. I'm more worried they'll overshoot or miss the point entirely and fuck something else up.
 

cid85

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
863
Banned (permanent): Dismissing inclusionary efforts, drive-by post, previous severe infraction
Dont give a shit about any of that stuff, as long as the game is good, that is all I care about.
 

Woylie

Member
May 9, 2018
1,849
This is good news! "Take features of men and features of women and mix them all up" is maybe a somewhat naive way of thinking of GNC folks, but this is at least good for a start.

Definitely seems like damage control after the whole "This woman with a ten inch schlong is supposed to be THOUGHT-PROVOKING" but I won't complain about giving options and representation. Hopefully it's handled well.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
Very fucking happy to see this is a thing. Reading and listening to the trans community here on Era has reinforced the idea that CD Projekt Red has a LOT to learn about that community, but a feature like this gives me faith that CDPR are listening. I love CDPR, but every ounce of criticism given has been deserved, and insofar as these discussions have prompted them to change their approach and become more inclusive of trans people, hats off to them. Cyberpunk probably won't end up being a game that has perfect representation nomatter what, but if this kind of back-and-forth is indicative of anything, it's that we may end up getting a better CD Projekt Red, and that benefits everyone.

This is why these discussions matter, and nomatter how frustrating it is for the trans community and others who care deeply, this is why they need to keep happening: things do change. This isn't happening, surely, without the feedback and desire of every trans person.

I hope that moving forward CDPR continues to listen and to take criticism to heart in an effort to make a more inclusive, and better game.
 
May 17, 2019
2,649
Adding features this late in development does not bode well. Neither does the lack of self-awareness feel like it is exactly a beacon of unproblematic writing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,734
Boom.

I'll eat my crow when I said I doubt they'd have gender-locked character creation. Big step in letting their actions speak