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LegendX48

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,072
x-post from the other thread but just as pertinent

As CP77 features transphobic elements and is made by a company that's repeatedly been transphobic, while operating within a country that's in the midst of a severe nationwide crackdown on LGBTQ+ rights and people, I want to take a post to draw attention to the issues alongside the hype.

CDPR have spoken about the desire to reflect a range of political sympathies from staff in their game and are not only leaning on diversity and inclusivity as a promotion tool for it, but doing so at the expense of consideration for trans identities.

A game having transphobic elements is problematic in and of itself but when it's being upheld as art and reflective of political sympathies from a country that's currently doing its best to ensure trans people - and all those under LGBTQ+ umbrella - don't exist, it should warrant an extra layer of scrutiny. Especially from a company with a history of transphobic output.

Media influences a lot of how the public perceive trans people and their identities so it isn't just a game and the backing to it isn't apolitical to start. If you're hyped for the game and can't wait to hit the streets of Night City it's still good to be understanding of the context. It isn't a guess that the transphobia present in CP77 is representative of the views widespread within their country, it's part of what they're stating is important to them.

Being fans of the game and giving the feedback to CDPR that their company and games would be better off without the transphobia is as beneficial as it is possible.

Alongside the adoration and praise, being critical of these problems in any feedback forms or requests off the back of this video could help finally push CDPR to be more inclusive and less bigoted toward trans people. It would be appreciated if people would consider it alongside reading the below and lending support where possible.

www.hrw.org

Poland: Crackdown On LGBT Activists

Polish authorities should stop trying to silence activists who support lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people’s rights, and instead promote and protect the right to equality.
www.reuters.com

Thousands protest in Poland demanding release of LGBT activist

Several thousand people waving rainbow flags protested on Saturday in the centre of Warsaw to demand the release of an LGBT activist accused of hanging rainbow banners over statues and damaging an anti-abortion campaigner's van.




LGBTQ Charity and trans support organisation:

Trans-Fuzja Foundation • articles • portal

Trans-Fuzja Foundation • articles

Support:
lgbtqpl.carrd.co

LGBTQ+ IN POLAND

please help!

1024px-Transgender_Pride_flag.svg.png


More people need to take this into account instead of just going, "HYPE HYPE HYPE"


Pretty much why my thoughts and hype for the game have been in a perpetual freefall.

EDIT: replaced the @ with just a quote since its a new page, hope that's okay >.>
 
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Andrea_23

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
116
More people need to take this into account instead of just going, "HYPE HYPE HYPE"


Pretty much why my thoughts and hype for the game have been in a perpetual freefall.

EDIT: replaced the @ with just a quote since its a new page, hope that's okay >.>


I don't want to open Pandora's box but ... history teaches that "beauty" often rhymes with "questionable".
How many artists, companies, groups, populations, religions who have created unforgettable things, have also done questionable, sometimes atrocious things?

I don't want or care to justify CDP, I just wonder if it really makes sense to crucify them, even before their game is out ...
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
How many artists, companies, groups, populations, religions who have created unforgettable things, have also done questionable, sometimes atrocious things?

I don't want or care to justify CDP, I just wonder if it really makes sense to crucify them
Cool, criticise them for those things as well. Asking people to submit feedback around the concerns of the trans community isn't crucifying the company.
 

NeptunePirate

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,004
I'm a lowly console player, lol. So I am going to assume this will run better on my One X as opposed to my PS4 Pro. It's looking sooo good.
 

LegendX48

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,072
I don't want to open Pandora's box but ... history teaches that "beauty" often rhymes with "questionable".
How many artists, companies, groups, populations, religions who have created unforgettable things, have also done questionable, sometimes atrocious things?

I don't want or care to justify CDP, I just wonder if it really makes sense to crucify them, even before their game is out ...
I mean, they're repeat offenders at this point, the most recent of which being from the game itself iirc, and there's been exactly zero apologies.
 

Jameson

Member
Nov 23, 2017
430
Cool, criticise them for those things as well. Asking people to submit feedback around the concerns of the trans community isn't crucifying the company.
The post you made just has a bunch of laws in their country's politics, maybe make a thread with the actions of CD Project Red. Cuz I'm not sure what to criticize?
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
The post you made is just has a bunch of their country's politics, maybe make a thread with the actions of CD Project Red. Cuz I'm not sure what to criticize?
A number of threads have been made and articles written at this point. You can find them pretty easily through the search or via Google but a couple among others here (1, 2) for Cyberpunk if you want to understand more. Will pop them into the original post too to give grounding, and you/others can post in either thread if curious to know more.

Understanding the wider context to the repeat friction CDPR has and has had with the trans community is important at a time when both the game is releasing with transphobic attributes and Poland is rapidly turning hostile toward LGBTQ+ people.
 

Andrea_23

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
116
I understand, really.
What I am trying to say is that probably the _ best/exhaustive_ answer that a video game company can give is not on social media, but through their own work: namely, a video game.

In other words, the summary of the opinions of all the people who worked on it, rather than an unhappy twitter post produced by a single (evidently frustrated) social media manager. To give a simple example.
My2c : )
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
What I am trying to say is that probably the _ best/exhaustive_ answer that a video game company can give is not on social media, but through their own work: namely, a video game.
The video game that embeds the notion that trans women with deep voices are actually men aside from when they have the alleged allure of a giant cock under their pants when all of a sudden they're an attraction plastered across the city or their offline promo events?

Not sure your point around the best answer either. The best answer to years of friction with the trans community is to not only have a meaningful and nuanced take on, and consideration for, trans identities if you're going to touch on them - something this genre could facilitate well - but the respect to detail that in advance of the release knowing the growing concerns.

They have no issue releasing promo after promo and leaning on that "diversity" line while hiding behind a character creator that allows cis chuds a giggle by making a girl with a dick, at the expense of actual trans people being able to play as themselves without being misgendered the entire game.

I really don't see the need for you to stand there waving your hands speaking of crucifiction or how little you care to defend CDP when all someone has done is asked people to consider giving feedback on these concerns to them, alongside any praise they have for other aspects of the game/showing.
 
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daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,899
Hey Kyuuji I really do appreciate you collecting everything in one spot like that. As someone of polish descent I've been trying to follow things as best as I can over there. I think the way you're approaching things here is fair: I had high hopes for how the game would be presenting these things at one point but now we are in a territory where at best I feel I can expect a "problematic fave," but I hope they prove me wrong.
 

Andrea_23

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
116
The video game that embeds the notion that trans women with deep voices are actually men aside from when they have the alleged allure of a giant cock under their pants when all of a sudden they're an attraction plastered across the city or their offline promo events?

Not sure your point around the best answer either. The best answer to years of friction with the trans community is to not only have a meaningful and nuanced take on, and consideration for, trans identities if you're going to touch on them - something this genre could facilitate well - but the respect to detail that in advance of the release knowing the growing concerns.

They have no issue releasing promo after promo and leaning on that "diversity" line while hiding behind a character creator that allows cis chuds a giggle by making a girl with a dick, at the expense of actual trans people being able to play as themselves without being misgendered the entire game.

I really don't see the need for you to stand there waving your hands speaking of crucifiction or how little you care to defend CDP when all someone has done is asked people to consider giving feedback on these concerns to them, alongside any praise they have for other aspects of the game/showing.

If you notice, I quoted LegendX48, not your message.
In particular I refer to this passage:

"Pretty much why my thoughts and hype for the game have been in a perpetual freefall"

Legitimate, but a bit premature without being able to judge the work in its entirety?

Expressing one's dissent in an attempt to 'correct' CDP is one thing, but boycotting them regardless?
We are talking about two completely different things, to say the least.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
If you notice, I quoted LegendX48, not your message.
In particular I refer to this passage:

"Pretty much why my thoughts and hype for the game have been in a perpetual freefall"

Legitimate, but a bit premature without being able to judge the work in its entirety?

Expressing one's dissent in an attempt to 'correct' CDP is one thing, but boycotting them regardless?
We are talking about two completely different things, to say the least.
There wasn't a quote on your last response and it came after my last one so wasn't immediately obvious. In either case I was still responding to your point around their best response and the game.

Not sure if anything was lost in the process but my last post should answer your latest question pretty cleanly.

Hey Kyuuji I really do appreciate you collecting everything in one spot like that. As someone of polish descent I've been trying to follow things as best as I can over there. I think the way you're approaching things here is fair: I had high hopes for how the game would be presenting these things at one point but now we are in a territory where at best I feel I can expect a "problematic fave," but I hope they prove me wrong.
Thanks daegan, I appreciate that.
 
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Andrea_23

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
116
There wasn't a quote on your last response and it came after my last one so wasn't immediately obvious. In either case I was still responding to your point around their best response and the game.

Not sure if anything was lost in the process but my last post should answer your latest question pretty cleanly.


I see :).
I don't want to insist.

Just a recap, hoping to clarify better my point.

Let your voice be heard, but also buy the game!
Assuming it's worth our money and our time... we'll see in November.
 

Andrea_23

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
116


Well, if you put it that way, I advise you to avoid my country altogether too??

I live in Italy and -I'm probably saying things you already know- but most of our art was commissioned by *philanthropists* who over the centuries have done much more serious things than CdP to minorities ; ).

Just to close the circle, compared to my initial post. An hyperbole, but the underlying principle remains valid.
 

Sax

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,326
I've watched that lifepath video a couple of times and each time I come away with a different favorite I want to start as.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
Well, if you put it that way, I advise you to avoid my country altogether too??

I live in Italy and -I'm probably saying things you already know- but most of our art was commissioned by *philanthropists* who over the centuries have done much more serious things than CdP to minorities ; ).

Just to close the circle, compared to my initial post. An hyperbole, but the underlying principle remains valid.
wtf_talking_about_wolf_of_wallstreet.gif
 
OP
OP

Black Chamber

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,811
United States
Wonder how big the badlands actually are. Zipping around as a nomad, or venturing out there later on as a different lifepath- tons of potential there.
Oh there will be a lot of stuff out there - the Raffen Shiv [Wraiths], the Aldecaldos, ruins of the world before the Pockyclips [Tomorrow-Morrow Land!] and other Nomad tribes/groups.
fb95f751-6c39-43c7-83ce-0314f103b289_text.gif

Definitely getting major mad max vibes!
Mad Max was Mike Pondsmith's inspiration to create the Nomads🤘
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,927
A number of threads have been made and articles written at this point. You can find them pretty easily through the search or via Google but a couple among others here (1, 2) for Cyberpunk if you want to understand more. Will pop them into the original post too to give grounding, and you/others can post in either thread if curious to know more.

Understanding the wider context to the repeat friction CDPR has and has had with the trans community is important at a time when both the game is releasing with transphobic attributes and Poland is rapidly turning hostile toward LGBTQ+ people.


For the first thread you linked, it looks like there was this follow-up story with the artist who made that in-game ad:

www.resetera.com

Polygon: CDPR responds to sexualized trans advertisement in CyberPunk 2077 (Read Staff Post Before Posting)

Original thread on controversy with Staff Post that applies here as well: https://www.resetera.com/threads/this-fetishized-in-game-ad-from-cyberpunk-2077-raises-some-questions-about-how-the-game-may-depict-lgbt-nsfw-see-staff-post-before-posting.122649/ EDIT: please don’t say something like...

They say that the whole purpose of the ad is that it feels wrong and like it fetishizes the models body. Of course, maybe that's just meant to put out the fire but it's a pretty logical interpretation as the ad does seem to focus on sex appeal rather than comedy. Whether I believe them or not is completely up in the air until I see how the social dynamic of gender roles and body modification is handled in the actual game storyline. If it is a thing that they just use for fun, then it was all just a joke to them but if they go into real issues in the CP world with stereotypes/fetishism then I'd believe them.

For the whole voice/pronouns thing, it sounds like the NPCs will refer to you as V rather than use gendered pronouns but your body type determines what genitals you will have??

www.videogameschronicle.com

Cyberpunk 2077 studio explains how gender customisation works | VGC

NPCs will refer to player as “V”…

To me, that seems like an ignorant design choice that they may or may not be locked into but I don't think it's intended as an insult to trans folks. Like there's no way most transphobic people would play this game in the first place and if they did, I highly doubt they would notice that voice/pronouns thing and see it as validation for their views.

All that said, it remains to be seen how class/race/sexuality/etc is handled in the final game. If there is real substance, I'll give them benefit of the doubt but if everything is just background chatter in a neon world, then it's worth criticizing them.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
For the first thread you linked, it looks like there was this follow-up story with the artist who made that in-game ad:

www.resetera.com

Polygon: CDPR responds to sexualized trans advertisement in CyberPunk 2077 (Read Staff Post Before Posting)

Original thread on controversy with Staff Post that applies here as well: https://www.resetera.com/threads/this-fetishized-in-game-ad-from-cyberpunk-2077-raises-some-questions-about-how-the-game-may-depict-lgbt-nsfw-see-staff-post-before-posting.122649/ EDIT: please don’t say something like...

They say that the whole purpose of the ad is that it feels wrong and like it fetishizes the models body. Of course, maybe that's just meant to put out the fire but it's a pretty logical interpretation as the ad does seem to focus on sex appeal rather than comedy. Whether I believe them or not is completely up in the air until I see how the social dynamic of gender roles and body modification is handled in the actual game storyline. If it is a thing that they just use for fun, then it was all just a joke to them but if they go into real issues in the CP world with stereotypes/fetishism then I'd believe them.
Yes, you can see my posts in that thread. They said it's what giant corporations do in their fictional world; use exploitative and overly sexualized imagery and that they hate it when corporations do that. While, you know, being a giant corporation in the real world doing just that. Even using the same imagery and cans of 'Chromanticure' in press events to promote and sell their product.

For the whole voice/pronouns thing, it sounds like the NPCs will refer to you as V rather than use gendered pronouns but your body type determines what genitals you will have??
That article is from 2019. It's been confirmed that pronouns used in the game are tied to the voice pitch you select. High = she/her. Low = he/him.

All that said, it remains to be seen how class/race/sexuality/etc is handled in the final game. If there is real substance, I'll give them benefit of the doubt but if everything is just background chatter in a neon world, then it's worth criticizing them.
I don't give benefits of the doubt to entities for whom I have to use two hands to count their issues with trans identities. It has always been well within their power to actually detail how they are handling these topics with nuance if they are, as people completely cognisant of their past friction with the community.

Like there's no way most transphobic people would play this game in the first place
I really want some of what you're smoking on this point as it must be some premium dank to believe it haha.
 
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Sep 21, 2019
2,594
After deflated hype from the last few showings, this definitely got things back on track for me.

I hope we get to color our guns, too.

Combat in The Witcher 3 was serviceable but not great. The game is still one of the few 10/10 games this generation, however.

Even if the shooting isn't great, so long as they nail the world and RPG elements, I'm so fucking in.
 
OP
OP

Black Chamber

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,811
United States
After deflated hype from the last few showings, this definitely got things back on track for me.

I hope we get to color our guns, too.

Combat in The Witcher 3 was serviceable but not great. The game is still one of the few 10/10 games this generation, however.

Even if the shooting isn't great, so long as they nail the world and RPG elements, I'm so fucking in.
Paweł Sasko said that we can fully customize our weapons - both with mods and attachments - but also colors & patterns...and after today's presentation; stickers😲
 
OP
OP

Black Chamber

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,811
United States
I think I'm leaning towards that now also. And the idea of being a nobody in night city (at least more so than the other two) sounds neat.
The Street Kid and Corpo Lifepaths sound amazing as well and thank goodness they're there for the completely unique 2nd and 3rd playthrough experiences they will offer - but for me, it's Nomad all the way for my first playthrough. How can you not like the idea of playing as a Mad Max character from the Badlands riding into Night City and then making a name for yourself - not to save the world, but to save yourself🤘
I'm not ready.

Actually I'm taking a week off for this.
Perfectly good reason for a vacation😤
 
OP
OP

Black Chamber

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,811
United States
After rewatching the Night City WIRE: Episode 2 again, I noticed that what is heavily implied to be V's Megabuilding may alter the coloring of the Collector's Edition packaging - based on the color changes for the building going from Yellow to Orange:
ACtC-3ds6rYu2xLC5i3sotU5Ra_bzDjca38SKY9xQoKRkDdNWevehTS7-D13poGthgfTw8twMzI0jUzdcaTk7z4JTJ837utciTh6DELiHypNB_MjJqZ9afvP2bq7SR84FRlqWa3j9fxRDIxPAC2Gg_2np1gb=s1442-no

Just speculation😅
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
If you notice, I quoted LegendX48, not your message.
In particular I refer to this passage:

"Pretty much why my thoughts and hype for the game have been in a perpetual freefall"

Legitimate, but a bit premature without being able to judge the work in its entirety?

Expressing one's dissent in an attempt to 'correct' CDP is one thing, but boycotting them regardless?
We are talking about two completely different things, to say the least.
We can only talk about what they decide to show us and if they show us transphobic shit, their social media PR is transphobic and company heads wax poetics about respecting all sides of the argument, minorities & their allies have absolutely no obligation to wait until they are "able to judge the work in its entirety" before we make a decision on whether we are interested in the game.
 

Superplex

Member
Nov 4, 2017
934
<3
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