Cyberpunk 2077 looks amazing, but I’m conflicted about supporting CD Projekt Red with the doubt they’ve cast around their social stances.

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

Good for you. Not really relevant, unless you had dragons swarming the polish fields in the middle ages.

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Underrated post.

I am not familiar enough with CDPR's history when it comes to social issues to really form an opinion on the incidents that have been brought up in this thread but I'd hope they'd learn from those mistakes and actively go about introducing more diversity in their games and standing up for representation considering they're one of the biggest/most influential developers in gaming at the moment.

Witcher III is my favorite game of all time though, as a PoC, I can't lie that I wished there had been more diversity in it as well. Hopefully Cyberpunk doesn't offer token representation and actually makes some headway for them in this regard. They should be better than a lot of what I've been made aware of in this thread.

 

[Kartul7]

Indeed, I do not expect people to suddenly become allies, though, in this community, I expected people to at least have a little more tact. I quoted you because, the way you wrote, sounded like you didn't care about the issues raised here, though I can see how one could interpret differently. I apologize if I were rude to you, and appreciate having the opportunity to clarify some things.

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It's fine, I re-read my post a while ago and it does sound dismissive and probably unnecessary altogether.

 

[Razmos]

Maybe next time just Don 't but the Game and leave the cry for attention somewhere?

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lol what a shitty post, thanks for the input

 

[andymoogle]

Ill go for historical accuracy over US cultural appropriation imperialism of a Polish book and game any day thanks.

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So Witchers and mythical creatures are historically accurate? Cool.

 

[KKRT]

Witcher III is my favorite game of all time though, as a PoC, I can't lie that I wished there had been more diversity in it as well. Hopefully Cyberpunk doesn't offer token representation and actually makes some headway for them in this regard. They should be better than a lot of what I've been made aware of in this thread.

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The thing is that Witcher is representing Slavic culture and we are very underrepresented.
I personally cannot think about any Western game with some Slavic representation, so having a AAA game created around Slavic myths is quite great.

 

[Razmos]

So Witchers and mythical creatures are historically accurate? Cool.

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Clearly mythical creatures are more common in Poland than people of colour. Attempts to justify the whitewashing of fictional games is fucking laughable

It's one stop away from the line of thinking of minorities needing a reason to exist in media and is just a roundabout way of saying it

 

[phonicjoy]

And in the middle ages there werent any black communities in Poland either, sorry.

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So just like dragons.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Its relevant because the author grew up never seeing black people for one.

And in the middle ages there werent any black communities in Poland either, sorry.

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The witcher's universe is an amalgamation of folktales from various places. It's not "fantasy Poland: the game." The whole premise of the witcher novels is that they were darker twists on existing fairy tales.

 

[Kyuuji]

High five brother.
I'm white and Polish and I love stuff like Boyz in the Hood. Actually a black or woman protagonist speaks more to me then a stereotypical "wasp".
The more real diversity the better, no one wants art by committee.

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Ill go for historical accuracy over US cultural appropriation imperialism of a Polish book and game any day thanks.

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Are u also one of those people that thinks Battlefield 5 is how world war 2 was?

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Why do I get the impression you're biting your tongue in these posts.

 

[andymoogle]

Clearly mythical creatures are more common in Poland than people of colour. Attempts to justify the whitewashing of fictional games is fucking laughable

It's one stop away from the line of thinking of minorities needing a reason to exist in media and is just a roundabout way of saying it

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It doesn't feel like Poland if not everyone is white!

Oh, Geralt is fighting a dragon. Awesome!

 

[NHarmonic.]

Historical accuracy is the #1 troll argument in gaming. Hiding your racist shit behind pseudo-intellectual crap to try and look more intelligent.

From the alt-right playbook of stupid shit.

 

[Trice]

The Witcher represents underrepresented Slavic people and Polish folklore and mythos and should be celebrated as such. It's a nice break from mobsters and bad guys portrayal in the western media.

Condemning them for not adhering to American cultural standards is a prime example of the train of thought of American imperialism. The ignorance doesn't surprise me one bit. Calling all white people the same and calling it whitewashing is the same as calling Europe a singular country when we know how much diversity there is.

Also, there is POC in a great piece of DLC, so what's the issue?

 

[MXT]

The Witcher represents underrepresented Slavic people and Polish folklore and mythos and should be celebrated as such. It's a nice break from mobsters and bad guys portrayal in the western media.

Condemning them for not adhering to American cultural standards is a prime example of the train of thought of American imperialism. The ignorance doesn't surprise me one bit. Calling all white people the same and calling it whitewashing is the same as calling Europe a country when we know how much diversity there is.

Also, there is POC in a great piece of DLC, so what's the issue?

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Representation is not a 'Western cultural standard'. DLC does not make up for whitewashing in the main game.

 

[Pagoto93]

Clearly mythical creatures are more common in Poland than people of colour. Attempts to justify the whitewashing of fictional games is fucking laughable

It's one stop away from the line of thinking of minorities needing a reason to exist in media and is just a roundabout way of saying it

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Curious as to how this counts as whitewashing? Were there references to people of colour in the source matter or in the Slavic folklore in which the books are based?

 

[Trice]

Representation is not a 'Western cultural standard'. DLC does not make up for whitewashing in the main game.

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It represents an underrepresented group. Just because it happens that group has less melanin, it doesn't make it any less important.

Whitewashing my ass.

 

[BossLackey]

Do what you want, but if you boycotted every game that has shitty people among its developers, you'd be left with a handful of indies.

 

[Trice]

Curious as to how this counts as whitewashing? Were there references to people of colour in the source matter or in the Slavic folklore in which the books are based?

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There is a region called Zerrikania which would be something like North Africa or Arabia in real life. Because of the brewing warzone, there isn't much contact between Zerrikania and the Northern Kingdoms other than trade and it's not really explored in the base game, just via scarce dialogue and inventory items.

I would love it to be explored a bit more when we get the next Witcher installment. It sounds really interesting.

 

[Kyuuji]

Do what you want, but if you boycotted every game that has shitty people among its developers, you'd be left with a handful of indies.

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If I went into a shop and heard an employee say something transphobic and didn't feel management particularly cared for the issue or about correcting it, I might avoid shopping there in favour of alternative stores. If I gave it a pass once, went in again and heard the same I would likely consider doing so more strongly.

Would you say to me "but if you decided to not shop in every store that.."?

All products and companies will have people just clocking in the nine-to-five. That doesn't absolve the corporate entity of any wrongdoing or repurcussion, nor should it. Factoring in a company's stance or actions on things when they're brought to light or, in this case, just put straight out there by them themselves is perfectly valid.

Someone deciding not to purchase a product because of the actions of the company isn't strange, unusual or extreme. It's the opposite, it's extremely common in all industries across both B2B and B2C. Nor does it necessitate or require the individual to then look up the linkedin and social media bios of every employee of every company they intend to purchase items from in the future.

Again though, this is all such rudimentary shit I find it extremely hard to believe it's being argued in good faith.

 

[Ripcord]

Do what you want, but if you boycotted every game that has shitty people among its developers, you'd be left with a handful of indies.

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So be it.

I loved Witcher 3 and used to use GOG all the time. I closed my gog account some time ago after CDP made it obvious they're toxic as fuck. I won't give money to my enemies. Doubly so when it's for something fucking stupid like video games. Thankfully Cyberpunk 2077 doesn't actually look very cyberpunk.

 

[Mobyduck]

Do what you want, but if you boycotted every game that has shitty people among its developers, you'd be left with a handful of indies.

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Don't see why that's bad. I always make sure to support queer creators, and a lot of them are only visible in the indie scene. Maybe more people should do the same and we would have an even more diverse industry.

 

[BossLackey]

Don't see why that's bad. I always make sure to support queer creators, and a lot of them are only visible in the indie scene. Maybe more people should do the same and we would have an even more diverse industry.

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I support good game developers. Queer or otherwise.

 

[Punished Goku]

Obviously not, but stings a bit more during this month. After the whole Dragon Quest XI debacle I've also became jaded about Gamers actually caring, anyways. Still annoys me that people think it's okay to say they don't care, when doing that on an EGS topic is an insta-ban nowadays.

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Same here. I rarely participate in gaming communities nowadays.

 

[Kyuuji]

I support good game developers. Queer or otherwise.

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This support presumably involves feeling a need to dive into a thread about CDP/R/GOG and its issues around transphobia and the wider LGBTQ+ community, telling people that if they boycott this they soon won't have many games left (an asinine point at best). Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion other than how much you like supporting CDPR?

 

[Deleted member 12100]

Cyberpunk looks too good to be missed. I will personally be purchasing it at least twice, to support a developer that makes great games, nay, thrice.

 

[Flipyap]

The witcher's universe is an amalgamation of folktales from various places. It's not "fantasy Poland: the game." The whole premise of the witcher novels is that they were darker twists on existing fairy tales.

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Yep, and that's just the short stories (where the one that really gets the whole thing going is explicitly rooted in Arabian mythology). Meanwhile, the long-form novels go all-in on Arthurian mythology. Those two mythologies, more than anything, are fundamental and inseparable from the story of the series.
It's silly to try and claim that the series is a celebration of Slavic anything. The author always intended the series to be multi(euro)cultural and has been very much against the idea of letting "Polishness" define his work and himself.

The whiteness of the setting is just an unfortunate side-effect of the author's sheltered point of view and there's no reason why that shouldn't be corrected in a modern adaptation.
Hiding behind "historical accuracy" of such an eclectic, anachronistic fantasy setting is a total joke. It's not the '90s anymore, you don't get to hide other ethnicities in some faraway, exotic and hardly described part of the world while borrowing elements of their cultures.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yep, and that's just the short stories (where the one that really gets the whole thing going is explicitly rooted in Arabian mythology). Meanwhile, the long-form novels go all-in on Arthurian mythology. Those two mythologies, more than anything, are fundamental and inseparable from the story of the series.
It's silly to try and claim that the series is a celebration of Slavic anything. The author always intended the series to be multi(euro)cultural and has been very much against the idea of letting "Polishness" define his work and himself.

The whiteness of the setting is just an unfortunate side-effect of the author's sheltered point of view and there's no reason why that shouldn't be corrected in a modern adaptation.
Hiding behind "historical accuracy" of such an eclectic, anachronistic fantasy setting is a total joke. It's not the '90s anymore, you don't get to hide other ethnicities in some faraway, exotic and hardly described part of the world while borrowing elements of their cultures.

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👏 👏 👏

 

[Look! The Pie!]

All the people making the "out of the hundreds of people working on a game/for a company, not everyone is going to be woke/share your views" argument do realise that people aren't just upset about that one dude's questionable tweets, but how CDPR as a company chose to respond to them, right? Because their "sorry you were offended" non-apology did little to convince me that they give a shit about trans or other LGBT people.

And to the many (presumably straight cis male) people making their "Don't care, still buying" posts, just be thankful you're obviously not part of a demographic that has to give consideration to how a developer feels about you and your rights before choosing to support them.

I say all this as someone who counts The Witcher 3 in my top ten of all time. Sadly, CDPR are going to have to do a lot more to convince me to give them any more of my money at this stage.

 

[Wackamole]

All the people making the "out of the hundreds of people working on a game/for a company, not everyone is going to be woke/share your views" argument do realise that people aren't just upset about that one dude's questionable tweets, but how CDPR as a company chose to respond to them, right? Because their "sorry you were offended" non-apology did little to convince me that they give a shit about trans or other LGBT people.

And to the many (presumably straight cis male) people making their "Don't care, still buying" posts, just be thankful you're obviously not part of a demographic that has to give consideration to how a developer feels about you and your rights before choosing to support them.

I say all this as someone who counts The Witcher 3 in my top ten of all time. Sadly, CDPR are going to have to do a lot more to convince me to give them any more of my money at this stage.

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Yep, well said. This is how it is.

 

[BossLackey]

This support presumably involves feeling a need to dive into a thread about CDP/R/GOG and its issues around transphobia and the wider LGBTQ+ community, telling people that if they boycott this they soon won't have many games left (an asinine point at best). Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion other than how much you like supporting CDPR?

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You never fail, ResetERA. Literally every time I have a dissenting opinion, I get "Do you have anything to contribute?". Please save it and come up with something else to say. It's just as empty as what you're accusing my comments of being.

 

[Deleted member 12100]

All the people making the "out of the hundreds of people working on a game/for a company, not everyone is going to be woke/share your views" argument do realise that people aren't just upset about that one dude's questionable tweets, but how CDPR as a company chose to respond to them, right? Because their "sorry you were offended" non-apology did little to convince me that they give a shit about trans or other LGBT people.

And to the many (presumably straight cis male) people making their "Don't care, still buying" posts, just be thankful you're obviously not part of a demographic that has to give consideration to how a developer feels about you and your rights before choosing to support them.

I say all this as someone who counts The Witcher 3 in my top ten of all time. Sadly, CDPR are going to have to do a lot more to convince me to give them any more of my money at this stage.

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Or maybe we personally feel their response was satisfactory, or that the offenses weren't egregious enough to elicit a boycott of all things related to said company?

 

[Mobyduck]

I support good game developers. Queer or otherwise.

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You do that, and I will keep denouncing bigot companies, their games being good or not.

 

[Mobyduck]

Edit: DP (damn you, Nintendo Direct!)

 

[Deleted member 12100]

You do that, and I will keep denouncing bigot companies, their games being good or not.

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So now CDPR is a bigot company? I find that to be quite a reach.

 

[Kyuuji]

You never fail, ResetERA. Literally every time I have a dissenting opinion, I get "Do you have anything to contribute?". Please save it and come up with something else to say. It's just as empty as what you're accusing my comments of being.

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I mean, I originally replied to your post with something more substantive but you ignored it in favour of posting another one-liner lol.

If I went into a shop and heard an employee say something transphobic and didn't feel management particularly cared for the issue or about correcting it, I might avoid shopping there in favour of alternative stores. If I gave it a pass once, went in again and heard the same I would likely consider doing so more strongly.

Would you say to me "but if you decided to not shop in every store that.."?

All products and companies will have people just clocking in the nine-to-five. That doesn't absolve the corporate entity of any wrongdoing or repurcussion, nor should it. Factoring in a company's stance or actions on things when they're brought to light or, in this case, just put straight out there by them themselves is perfectly valid.

Someone deciding not to purchase a product because of the actions of the company isn't strange, unusual or extreme. It's the opposite, it's extremely common in all industries across both B2B and B2C. Nor does it necessitate or require the individual to then look up the linkedin and social media bios of every employee of every company they intend to purchase items from in the future.

Again though, this is all such rudimentary shit I find it extremely hard to believe it's being argued in good faith.

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Your contributions were:

• If you boycott this game you soon won't have any games left
• I support good game developers

What dissenting opinion?

 

[BossLackey]

I mean, I originally replied to your post with something more substantive but you ignored it.

If I went into a shop and heard an employee say something transphobic and didn't feel management particularly cared for the issue or about correcting it, I might avoid shopping there in favour of alternative stores. If I gave it a pass once, went in again and heard the same I would likely consider doing so more strongly.

Would you say to me "but if you decided to not shop in every store that.."?

All products and companies will have people just clocking in the nine-to-five. That doesn't absolve the corporate entity of any wrongdoing or repurcussion, nor should it. Factoring in a company's stance or actions on things when they're brought to light or, in this case, just put straight out there by them themselves is perfectly valid.

Someone deciding not to purchase a product because of the actions of the company isn't strange, unusual or extreme. It's the opposite, it's extremely common in all industries across both B2B and B2C. Nor does it necessitate or require the individual to then look up the linkedin and social media bios of every employee of every company they intend to purchase items from in the future.

Again though, this is all such rudimentary shit I find it extremely hard to believe it's being argued in good faith.

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Naw, I read it and just didn't feel like it needed to be replied to. The difference is, has CDPR not addressed some of these things?

Not to mention, my original post still stands. If you were to boycott every dev that had shithead employees, you'd be left with nothing. That's just how it is.

A lot of people are shitty. ERA is constantly surprised at this fact, it seems.

 

[Chixdiggit]

All the people making the "out of the hundreds of people working on a game/for a company, not everyone is going to be woke/share your views" argument do realise that people aren't just upset about that one dude's questionable tweets, but how CDPR as a company chose to respond to them, right? Because their "sorry you were offended" non-apology did little to convince me that they give a shit about trans or other LGBT people.

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Just curious how some of you feel they should of handled this. Like what exactly should they have said or done that would of given you the benefit of the doubt?

 

[Kyuuji]

Naw, I read it and just didn't feel like it needed to be replied to. The difference is, has CDPR not addressed some of these things?

Not to mention, my original post still stands. If you were to boycott every dev that had shithead employees, you'd be left with nothing. That's just how it is.

A lot of people are shitty. ERA is constantly surprised at this fact, it seems.

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So just ignore the discussion and then reiterate your well-debunked point. Alright. No one's talking about boycotting every developer that has poor employees, but you know that because you're not an idiot.

There's no difference – my example even included poor responses from management so it's not like you care for actually discussing anything. Otherwise you might have invested in reading the past couple of pages to catch up and see the point on CDPR/GOG's response being poor.

Just come in, put out some dumb one-liner and then bemoan the forum for how it treats you.

 

[Look! The Pie!]

Or maybe we personally feel their response was satisfactory, or that the offenses weren't egregious enough to elicit a boycott of all things related to said company?

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If that's your personal stance then it's a perfectly valid one. I was more referring to those being dismissive of other people's concerns.

Just curious how some of you feel they should of handled this. Like what exactly should they have said or done that would of given you the benefit of the doubt?

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I can't say how exactly they should have handled it but I just found their "apology" completely lacking. If they'd said something overtly supportive of LGBT rights, and people hadn't already been side-eyeing them over other stuff (the lack of diversity and representation in their earlier output, the apparent insinuation that character-creation gender in a Cyberpunk game of all things would be strictly binary, etc) I think a lot more people would be cutting them some slack.

 

[Mobyduck]

So now CDPR is a bigot company? I find that to be quite a reach.

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From my point of view, yes. It's fine to disagree, just like it's fine to not want to boycott. I think people, overall, have laid down pretty well their reasons to dislike CDP, just like some people have explained why they aren't against buying it. Their quick succession of bigoted tweets, plus their weak apology and refusal to ever talk about the subject (basically, they poisoned their own well) made me delete my GOG.com account and never want to deal with them until they show some changes. We will see when their new game releases, though I'm not too confident.

Then again, you only seem to be in this discussion to be a contrarian. Your post about buying multiple copies is a terrible bait, as were your initial "what is the OP expecting to see" posts.

 

[Kyuuji]

I can't say how exactly they should have handled it but I just found their "apology" completely lacking. If they'd said something overtly supportive of LGBT rights, and people hadn't already been side-eyeing them over other stuff (the lack of diversity and representation in their earlier output, the apparent insinuation that character-creation gender in a Cyberpunk game of all things would be strictly binary, etc) I think a lot more people would be cutting them some slack.

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Don't forget the wider group, they sure don't. Going from a non-apology for a transphobic comment to no apology at all is trash.

 

[Chixdiggit]

If that's your personal stance then it's a perfectly valid one. I was more referring to those being dismissive of other people's concerns.



I can't say how exactly they should have handled it but I just found their "apology" completely lacking. If they'd said something overtly supportive of LGBT rights, and people hadn't already been side-eyeing them over other stuff (the lack of diversity and representation in their earlier output, the apparent insinuation that character-creation gender in a Cyberpunk game of all things would be strictly binary, etc) I think a lot more people would be cutting them some slack.

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Fair enough points.
Interesting comment about the character creation. I will have to look up a video on that to comment on it myself though.

 

[Deleted member 12100]

From my point of view, yes. It's fine to disagree, just like it's fine to not want to boycott. I think people, overall, have laid down pretty well their reasons to dislike CDP, just like some people have explained why they aren't against buying it. Their quick succession of bigoted tweets, plus their weak apology and refusal to ever talk about the subject (basically, they poisoned their own well) made me delete my GOG.com account and never want to deal with them until they show some changes. We will see when their new game releases, though I'm not too confident.

Then again, you only seem to be in this discussion to be a contrarian. Your post about buying multiple copies is a terrible bait, as were your initial "what is the OP expecting to see" posts.

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Not totally bait. I am almost assuredly going to be buying multiple copies. I have multiple copies of a lot of games because while my preference is to play on my PC, I also own all the major consoles, they're in several different rooms, and sometimes you just can't beat the couch/bed.

My beef with the OP is the post came off as wanting to have one's arm twisted into making a purchase, which I would bet a not insignificant sum of money, he will end up doing.

I do agree to disagree.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Just curious how some of you feel they should of handled this. Like what exactly should they have said or done that would of given you the benefit of the doubt?

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This has happened multiple times now. An apology is fine but it is the least that is expected. When this kind of pattern occurs just apologizing isn't enough. As
Look! The Pie! said above, what should be expected in cases like this is a statement unequivocally in support of LGBTQ+ people. As a queer man myself, these days, apologies aren't enough and I expect both individuals and companies to make their stance on their support of the disenfranchised obvious.
This was brought up around the VtM Bloodlines 2 announcement but the tabletop developers had this in their VtM 5th edition corebook:

Of course it triggered all the people who hate "SJWs" and support the alt-right but it was absolutely necessary and confirmed for many that were part of or allies of marginalized groups that this was a company they could trust not to fuck around when it came to representing and supporting them. And thankfully the devs of Bloodlines 2 took the same stance as pointed out in this topic. This is what we should want from the companies we give our money too. Too many people are happy ignoring this shit and claiming that games and gaming should be "apolitical" when that's never been the reality of the artform or the industry that produces it.

 

[MXT]

The way some people are responding to this thread is particularly disappointing with this being pride month and all.

 

[MXT]

So now CDPR is a bigot company? I find that to be quite a reach.

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You don't want to believe it, that's not the same thing as something being a 'reach'. CDPR hired a GamerGator and put said gator in charge of two official Twitter accounts.

so, to answer your question, yeah........

 

[NizzyKid]

I don't care about their political stance, just having a great game.

 

[MXT]

I don't care about their political stance, just having a great game.

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Ah, yes, the old 'political stances don't bother me'.

Arguing over the marginal tax rate is politics. Allowing queer existence is just basic humanity, a requirement for participation in civil society.

 

[Deleted member 12100]

The way some people are responding to this thread is particularly disappointing with this being pride month and all.

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Like what? I have not seen a single post I would identify as somehow hateful or bigoted towards the LGBT community?

You don't want to believe it, that's not the same thing as something being a 'reach'. CDPR hired a GamerGator and our said gator in charge of two official Twitter accounts.

so, to answer your question, yeah........

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I disagree, it's a reach so yeah.

 

[MXT]

Like what? I have not seen a single post I would identify as somehow hateful or bigoted towards the LGBT community?



I disagree, it's a reach so yeah.

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Read the OP. It has several.

 

[NizzyKid]

Ah, yes, the old 'political stances don't bother me'.

Arguing over the marginal tax rate is politics. Allowing queer existence is just basic humanity, a requirement for participation in civil society.

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Ok. I don't care who's LBGT that's fine and dandy. Same I don't care what political stance a company has or doesn't have. I honestly don't see a problem with this company either. But if you have one that's cool. That's you.