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Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
The amount of crunch that CD Projekt Red has done is claimed to be some of the worst in the industry. I don't see why the issue for you is the potential of them not being paid for crunch when the real issue is the crunch itself. There are so many studies showing how long work hours affects your mental and physical wellbeing, so I really don't understand why you're ok with this.
Never said I am ok with it. Said I understand why it happens. And while we can talk up how bad it is... that's not the solution. The solution to things like these is always money. Be rest assured, if it was made mandatory for companies to pay twice the wages if making devs to put extra hours two things will happen. People will start complaining less about crunch, and companies will become more flexible with their release schedules.

The real messed up thing is that if devs realize they get paid more during crunch, they could actually purposefully low things down a bit just to ensure they get to have a longer (better paying) crunch period. Yh, human beings can be devious like that.
 
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kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
I agree. And I've said this is in two other threads now, but I really think it's shitty that they used the word cock sucker in the trailer. It's just unnecessary homophobia / misogyny. It's the fucking future and you can write any world you want, can we maybe imagine that the world is less toxic for women and queer people and that cybercrimelordguy could employ some different verbage for the E3 audience?

Like ffs why do we have to put up with this shit
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,133
It's good to hold them accountable for this. However I also can't penalize a team of hundreds on account of their social media person posting problematic memes.
 

Dohma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
49
User Banned (1 month): Excusing transphobic rhetoric and dismissing concerns surrounding bigotry
Fucking hell have some empathy. Making horrible transphobic jokes for a cheap laugh or co-opting a hashtag about the rights of trans people being stripped away is absolutely normalising transphobia.

That's why the "Did you just assume my gender?" Meme took off because it became a funny joke to the masses when its meaning is inherently offensive to trans people.
It's a joke that has been repeatedly used to make fun of and demean trans folk, usually implying that gender is not real or a mental issue that needs treating.

does it mean something else to both of you? my trans buddy uses it a lot and most my social group just uses it as a sarcastic false attack. genuinely didn't think people took it so seriously
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
I'm sorry I don't understand what you're saying. What doesnt seem worse in what one? You were complaining that the world seemed worse in CP2077 than it does today. I pointed out that was to be expected as its a key element of the genre. The general aesthetic of the game, which is what I assume you're talking about with "1990's in the future" is the "deeply anachronistic" look I was talking about in my post. Also, whether you want the cyberpunk of the 60's or 70's is immaterial as it doesnt exist. Cyberpunk, as a term and genre, didn't exist until the mid-80's.
No I wasn't refering to the aesthetic of the game. For a dystopian world, it looks like it social state of 90's, our 90's.
You are right about cyberpunk time period, my mistake.
 

Eros

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,668
Wait I thought they got rid of the people making those tweets. They still fucking up?
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
I agree. And I've said this is in two other threads now, but I really think it's shitty that they used the word cock sucker in the trailer. It's just unnecessary homophobia / misogyny. It's the fucking future and you can write any world you want, can we maybe imagine that the world is less toxic for women and queer people and that cybercrimelordguy could employ some different verbage for the E3 audience?

Like ffs why do we have to put up with this shit

Because the best fiction is a reflection of our reality
Cyberpunk is about the worst of humanity

If they used made up words it would NOT have any impact BUT the fact that you are pissed about him using COCKSUCKER means they got the intended reaction out of you. Do you understand that? They want you to hate the guy, he's some dirty ass gangster not some Victorian lady.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
Maybe it is to you. I've said it many times over the years to friends and not one single time did I ever say it with that meaning behind it.

See this is the problem. People see something from their POV and that's exactly how they feel others do to. It's simply not the case. I can see how people would view it that way, sure, but don't make a statement saying that it's 100% factual because that's not accurate.
Using "cocksucker" as an insult implies that there's something wrong with being a cocksucker. That's all there is to it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
I decided to be ultimately content with the fact that the asshole operating their Twitter got fired -- and I only know that because I believe we had some Internet Sleuths on this very website who tracked down not only the guys name, but also Discord discussions and other social media follow-ups in which it became apparent that CDPR canned the guy. And yes, the dude was tied up in a lot of fucking GamerGate sludge; no surprises there.

I'm still mad at CDPR though. I have a lot of emotional trouble reconciling my deep respect for the LGBTQ community and my love for great videogames, of which I strongly believe that CP2077 will be. Games should never come before people, but I know that my brain does a bit of data manipulation and mental gymnastics to make my desire to buy the game "Ok." At the end of the day, whether you're going to support CDPR or not, do the following:

Speak out in support of LGBTQ people, and never let any company - CDPR or otherwise - off the hook for what they say and do. They are probably as of right now one of the least friendliest companies when it comes to this stuff, and I still want to see more from them, and expect more from them, in making amends for their fuck-ups. I hope they'll do the right things moving forward.
 

Harlequin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,614
does it mean something else to both of you? my trans buddy uses it a lot and most my social group just uses it as a sarcastic false attack. genuinely didn't think people took it so seriously
I think it depends on where it's coming from. Of course you can use it in a benign, light-hearted manner but many people use it to maliciously make fun of the very idea of trans and non-binary people.

Well not really going to know how it handles until it comes out.
Or we see/read about problematic stuff in previews. But if not, it's never killed anyone to wait until a few days after release to get a game.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
does it mean something else to both of you? my trans buddy uses it a lot and most my social group just uses it as a sarcastic false attack. genuinely didn't think people took it so seriously
I think there is a big difference between people from that minority using it, and a corporate account using it. My friends will sometimes make "gay" jokes, they know I don't mind and I sometimes partake in them, but, just like I'd be pretty uncomfortable if a stranger made those same jokes, I also wouldn't want a corporate account making them like it's the most normal thing.

EDIT: We also need to remember that Gamergate is a thing, and minorities in the gaming industry are still attacked daily by people that share those same ideals. And having a company such as CDPR making those jokes legitimizes those people and their harassment.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
Using "cocksucker" as an insult implies that there's something wrong with being a cocksucker. That's all there is to it.

Exactly, the bad guy says that being a cocksucker is wrong! You, THE HERO can show him it's not...
It's why I'm okay with making villains racist... it's an easy way to say racism makes you a villain

Honestly, I hope you can sarcastically reply, "Well, as a proud cocksucker myself, I resent that statement" it would be hilariously awesome
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
Wait I thought they got rid of the people making those tweets. They still fucking up?
No, they haven't fucked up since the last big thing but that stuff should be remembered. It wasn't long ago. And it took them a while to get rid of that guy and that indicates a level of complicitness if not indifference from other people in the company.
 

SpinierBlakeD

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2018
1,353
It means that they fail to grasp and understand the actual point of cyberpunk (biting criticism of capitalism and corporations, examination of transhumanism and identity issues, examination of social divisions). It feels like they just think the aesthetic is "cool", and don't actually understand the extent of what cyberpunk stories do.
How can this be discerned when the game hasn't even been released?
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
Because the best fiction is a reflection of our reality
Cyberpunk is about the worst of humanity

If they used made up words it would NOT have any impact BUT the fact that you are pissed about him using COCKSUCKER means they got the intended reaction out of you. Do you understand that? They want you to hate the guy, he's some dirty ass gangster not some Victorian lady.
This doesn't speak to me at all. This isn't evocative or compelling, it's just shitty.
 

Pagoto93

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
776
I understand your other complaints but doesn't it seem bizarre to criticise The Witcher which is based in Slavic folklore and created in an almost exclusively white country for a lack of diversity? American politics and social issues don't apply there.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,541
does it mean something else to both of you? my trans buddy uses it a lot and most my social group just uses it as a sarcastic false attack. genuinely didn't think people took it so seriously
A lot of trans people use it sarcastically, but there's a huge difference between that and someone that isn't trans using it.

As a more extreme example, there's a huge difference between my gay friends calling me a fag and some rando straight person using the word.
 

Deleted member 249

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,828

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
does it mean something else to both of you? my trans buddy uses it a lot and most my social group just uses it as a sarcastic false attack. genuinely didn't think people took it so seriously
That is exactly the point though, trans people using it as a joke is fair enough but when everyone else uses it it is normalised. It's a joke about gender identity and acting like someone is being unreasonable by wanting to be referred to as their preferred gender which is something trans people have a very hard time with.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Context matters, yes. But context cannot change the literal meaning of words. At this point in time in the English language, the meaning of the word cocksucker is very clearly defined. It means "someone who sucks cock". Now, that in and of itself isn't bad because the word doesn't include any inherent value judgement. You could, in theory, use the word cocksucker in a completely neutral or even positive sense. For example: "I'm a great cocksucker." No issues there. However, it's usually used as an insult and when you use it as an insult you automatically imply that there's something inherently negative about the act of sucking cock or a person who sucks cock. And that is not changed by context. Even if you use it as an insult for someone who's never actually sucked a cock, even if you don't mean it literally, you're still reinforcing that negative connotation. That's a problem.

With insults like dick, jerk, cunt, bitch, I don't think that that's necessarily the case (though again, I don't know if there are any specific historical factors regarding the word cunt in the US). Like, referring to a person as a dick doesn't have much intrinsic meaning to it. They're obviously not a literal dick and, as far as I'm aware, there are no established discrimnatory stereotypes you're furthering by using the word dick as an insult...

And just for the record, I don't dislike swear words whatsoever. I use them quite liberally myself. I merely try to be aware of their actual meaning and if there are ones whose implications I don't like, I'll try not to use it. Likewise, I never use expressions like "that took balls" or "they didn't have the balls" because I find it to be inherently sexist (because it implies that courage is an inherently masculine trait which isn't only unfair towards women but also creates unhealthy expectations for boys and men to behave a certain way).

You don't automatically imply anything. Swearing can be because words sound good to use or you're trying to be funny or a whole host of other reasons. Cyberpunk, it's literally attempting to be funny/edgy/tryhard... to a degree. Punk. Rebellion.

Too often people like to play games of "I know what you really think", and it's a very narrow way to approach life.

Are the whole cast of Deadwood, including Ian McShane (probably swears more than anyone), inherently homophobic or thinking negatively of anyone who literally sucks cock? I think you'd have to be a good mindreader to put them all on some list of bad people.

You can find things always to be inherently problematic as your point of view/lived experience/understanding of language and humanity, I'm not going to tell you, you are wrong, but it's not quite correct yourself or anyone else thinks they always know the context or intent from someone. Sometimes people swear just to swear or be funny. Not imply anything negative about anyone. If you watch any mob or crime shows, you'll often hear a whole arsenal of swearing, and many just find it funny. Not serious nor do they go on and use the words to belittle anyone's identity. Swearing as a part of language is often just funny because of the exertion of emotion and the silly word combinations people come up with.

I think there are narrowing uses of certain swear words over others, due to the baggage they may carry at times, but even that doesn't mean someone cannot say something like cock sucker without instantly having a hatred or inherently negative view of anyone who actually sucks cock.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091

Jogi

Prophet of Regret
Member
Jul 4, 2018
5,452
I think saying cocksucker in the trailer really just shows how tone deaf they are as a company. There a plenty of ways to showcase how decrepit and low-life these characters are without throwing out well-known homophobic slurs. I mean they really couldn't come up with a better line of dialogue for a massive press conference?! Can't believe they thought this would be the best way to show off their game at E3.
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
Yes, I too use guilt by association to smear companies made of hundreds of individuals
 

captainmal01

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,340
Never said I am ok with it. Said I understand why it happens. And while we can talk up how bad it is... that's not the solution. The solution to things like these is always money. Be rest assured, if it was made mandatory for companies to pay twice the wages if making devs to put extra hours two things will happen. People will start complaining less about crunch, and companies will become more flexible with their release schedules.

I edited my message to clarify my point.
Regarding the money point, it looks like Polish laws stipulate you are required to pay at least 50% and up to double for overtime. So it looks like in some cases it is mandatory for companies to pay twice the wages. Either CD Projekt is breaking labor laws or they're paying the premium. And even if they were paying the premium and people were OK with it, it still puts pressure on other people to also crunch to show their "value".
Working overtime is fine in moderation, but what CD Projekt do is not even understandable.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
he could say asshole, fucker, some cool future sounding thing, idk

Well fucker implies having lots of sex i.e. being a fucker is a bad thing
Asshole would work
Future insults just sound silly, ya get me "scunner" ?

I think saying cocksucker in the trailer really just shows how tone deaf they are as a company. There a plenty of ways to showcase how decrepit and low-life these characters are without throwing out well-known homophobic slurs. I mean they really couldn't come up with a better line of dialogue for a massive press conference?! Can't believe they thought this would be the best way to show off their game at E3.

Bad guy uses anti-gay insult. People get angry about it. CD Projekt is all, "well duh! He's a bad guy, we WANT you to hate him"
I will admit it's kinda cringy in a "baby's first mature script" kind of way but honestly lets see what the whole game is like.
 

Deleted member 1120

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,511
I understand your other complaints but doesn't it seem bizarre to criticise The Witcher which is based in Slavic folklore and created in an almost exclusively white country for a lack of diversity? American politics and social issues don't apply there.
There are fucking dragons in Witcher, it's a fucking fantasy.
Diversity isn't just an american politics problem. jesus.
 

Gatti-man

Banned
Jan 31, 2018
2,359
They fired the social media manager so if the game looks good I'll buy it unless something major comes out before hand.

Reports of ridiculous crunch will make me not buy a game. Unfortunately it usually comes out after I've already purchased it like was the case with mk11
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
Well fucker implies having lots of sex i.e. being a fucker is a bad thing
Asshole would work
Future insults just sound silly, ya get me "scunner" ?
yeah I think fucker is problematic in the sense that it's kind of sex shamey, and asshole is problematic in that there's nothing wrong with assholes lol

But neither one of those specifically employ homophobia or misogyny, which is my specific complaint here.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
I understand your other complaints but doesn't it seem bizarre to criticise The Witcher which is based in Slavic folklore and created in an almost exclusively white country for a lack of diversity? American politics and social issues don't apply there.
lol Europe not caring about how racist it is doesn't make racism an American political issue
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
yeah I think fucker is problematic in the sense that it's kind of sex shamey, and asshole is problematic in that there's nothing wrong with assholes lol

But neither one of those specifically employ homophobia or misogyny, which is my specific complaint here.

And villains are not allowed to be homophobic or misogynistic because?
Would you have a problem if he was a Nazi too? You would not, right? Nazi's were pretty homophobic and misogynistic.

I hear way worse things in the bus every morning, couldn't care less.

I feel like folks here at times wish their games were not as ugly as the real world
But something like cyberpunk is supposed to be ugly. It's not a Star Trek utopia.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
I hear way worse things in the bus every morning, couldn't care less.
mocking-spongebob-1556133078.jpg

Great thanks for posting
 

misho8723

Member
Jan 7, 2018
3,719
Slovakia
Yeah, forget everything good the company did in the past or present - how a homosexual character and a crossdresser weren't the butt of a joke in TW3 but were either symphatetic or smart and charismatic, how the game has one of the best female characters in the whole gaming industry (and not just there) or how many employees from the company were at a Pride Parade in Warsaw to support the LGBT community (which still can be risky in Central/Eastern Europe) but rather let's repeat the same things which happened in the past and mostly by one guy who no longer works in the company and was fired for his fuck ups
irjykxg0g6331.jpg


I mean, of course if you are still hesitant about the game and how they are going to tackle all those issues, that's perfectly fine and everyones right.. but calling the company still transphobic and homophobic, even after they didn't had a accident in similiar way as when they still had in their company that one guy that was mostly to blame for those tweets and bad PR, is - in my mind - somewhat unfair ?.. rather let's say how it's going end up being when the game is going to be released (and no one from the company no longer does something stupid again)
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
The company itself refused to comment or apologise. Publicly denouncing transphobia is an incredibly easy thing to do but they refused to do so and even tried shitty damage control that just made things worse. The company should absolutely be held accountable.
No company is obligated to make a comment or statement like that. They fired the person responsible, which says to me that they found his comments unacceptable.
That is no excuse if they are selling to a worldwide audience.
It's not an excuse, but it adds context. There's a lot of different people in this world and they all have differing views on differing subjects. Some of those views may be objectively wrong, but how are you going to change the mind of an entire culture or country?

Regardless, it's kind of moot as there is nothing actually in what we've seen in Cyberpunk 2077 or their past games that show they are anti-LGBT or bigoted. Their work says a lot more than someone on twitter. Additionally, as someone else has posted earlier in this thread, they actually have supported pro-LGBT endeavors in their country.
 

DrKelpo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,862
Germany
a bad guy in a dystopia saying bad things is fine

The overarching question in this thread is basically if the villain says cocksucker because he is a homophobic asshole within the context of the universe or if he says it because there is a fundamental problem with the writing of the game because CDPR thinks this is an acceptable thing to say.
 

SushiMassage

Banned
Apr 5, 2019
69
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns surrounding bigotry with whataboutism; previous severe infraction for similar behavior. Account still in junior phase.
Do the people on the bus also ask you for your money? If not, I don't see the relevance.

There are worse things to worry about today in this world. Thousands of people are getting slaughtered, cut into pieces, murdered, raped everyday. Don't take something that a game developer does, so seriously.
 
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