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SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,516
Chicagoland
Is this actually new news, or is it old?

With Cyberpunk 2077 launching only using the DX12 API, we're not going to have to deal with launch day bugs, surely.

And I'm definitely not worried that it's a DirectX 12-only game.

Definitely not. I've only ever had great experiences with DX12-performance around launch day. No weird bugs, no odd graphical artifacts, no inexplicable crashes, no recommendations that you should actually just use whatever alternative API is offered until a suitable patch can be released that sorts out whatever is wrong with your AMD or Nvidia graphics configuration. No wait... I am worried. All of those things have happened with DirectX 12 games.The fact there is no fallback API option for people running other operating systems aside from Windows 10 doesn't concern me. I get that Windows 7 is still a popular OS, and as CDPR's Marcin Gollent told PCGamesHardware.com, "thanks to the introduction of DX12 support for Windows 7 SP1 that Microsoft introduced last year, the game will run on this system. We do, and will continue to test Cyberpunk 2077 on Windows 7 in an attempt to iron out any edge-cases that might arise."

But the fact there is no DirectX 11 safety net, no Vulkan API alternative, does have my day 0 patch senses tingling. Who's going to suffer? Is it going to be the people signing up to the ray-traced future of in-game lighting, the Nvidia faithful who expect to have their RTX GPUs running without issue the moment the game's released? Given the amount of dev time and roach-squashing Nvidia will generally offer out to friendly RTX-On games, I've got to hope its ray-tracing ideally will be easily, and smoothly accessible to GeForce gamers from the get-go.

Team red? That might be a different matter. Maybe it depends on how much access AMD's driver team has to the game ahead of launch. Both GPU makers have made it a real priority, and are keenly focused on ensuring day one driver releases for key game launches happen. And Cyberpunk 2077 is absolutely one of those. So hopefully that should make this an easy experience for both sides of the graphics card divide. -- But who knows, certainly there have been some funky launch day issues for a whole lot of games with a DirectX 12 implementation. Thankfully they had alternative APIs you could use instead.

CD Projekt Red, however, has thrown its lot in entirely with DX12, though for entirely understandable reasons. "We opted to go with DX12 for two main reasons," Gollent tells PCGH. "Firstly, it is the standard API for the Xbox platforms, and with the game also coming to Xbox One, we naturally wanted to have it implemented as soon as possible. Secondly, it is the birthplace of DXR, and given we had plans to invest in DXR very early on, that made the choice to go with DX12 a pretty straightforward one."

The fact that CDPR is going all-in on DirectX Raytracing (DXR) on the PC is great, and I'm hopeful a laser-focus purely on DX12 might mean the sort of struggles the graphics API has introduced into other games might not be an issue with Cyberpunk 2077. Certainly CDPR has a history of solid game launches, and the multiple delays to its release suggests it's not interested in letting the game out unless it's in the best state from the beginning. So while the DirectX 12-only situation does concern me, the fact that it's coming from CD Projekt Red gives me some confidence that it shouldn't affect the final launch of Cyberpunk 2077. I'm trying to be positive here, trying to quell the bubble of buggy DX12-based fear that's gurgling away in my gut, so if you could all just tell me I'm worrying about nothing in the comments section that would be lovely.

www.pcgamer.com/cyberpunk-2077-directx-12-only/
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,483
Austin
Unless you're on Windows 7 or Linux I don't see this as an issue, the games with dx12 bugs usually have multiple apis so there isn't any focus on 1 and making it work as well as possible whereas with all dev time, Qa time, and players using dx12 things will be more optimized and bugs more quickly found and squashed, especially when they'd also affect the Xbox platform.
 

SaberVS7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,237
I don't think any other DX12 game before has actually been a DX12 Game though?

All the other bad DX12 implementations so far could easily be chalked up to being a rushed implementation so "Supports DX12!" can be a bulletpoint on the back of the box store page. In this case, DX12 Only means that every last bit of developer effort is focused on DX12, rather than it being a DX11 game with a DX12 Tech Demo Mode.

...Granted, if this game has issues too as a result of DX12, I guess we can truly chisel it down as the true successor to the mess known as DX10.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
Unless you're on Windows 7 or Linux I don't see this as an issue, the games with dx12 bugs usually have multiple apis so there isn't any focus on 1 and making it work as well as possible whereas with all dev time, Qa time, and players using dx12 things will be more optimized and bugs more quickly found and squashed, especially when they'd also affect the Xbox platform.
Even Win 7 has support for DX12.
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
Considering they're eventually porting to Stadia, i'd be surprised if there's not a vulkan option down the road. But I assume by this point that an overwhelming majority of PC gamers are on Windows 10.

Edit: oh right, dx12 is on 7 too now.
 

alosarjos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
364
If they are going to have Stadia support which requires Vulkan, can someone explain to me why Vulkan can't be an option on the PC version. Every single game using it has worked flawlessly...
 

Vimto

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,714
Most "dx12" games are actually dx11 though, no?

DX12 only games like Forza Horizon 4 and Gears 5 run phenomenally well.
 

Magio

Member
Apr 14, 2020
647
Considering they're eventually porting to Stadia, i'd be surprised if there's not a vulkan option down the road. But I assume by this point that an overwhelming majority of PC gamers are on Windows 10.

Edit: oh right, dx12 is on 7 too now.

That's probably the reason why Stadia's not there at launch too.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
Seems a bit baseless to me.

Games that target DX12 have pretty much uniformly been solid. Games that were designed around DX11 that bolted on DX12 modes to enable DX12 features on DX12 cards weren't great, but DX12 only games are a different story.

Last thing I expect is CDPR to fuck up the PC version of the game.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
DX12 worked better for me in Borderlands 3 though.
I guess when it's DX12 only it is better optimized for that, right?
Well it's *only* optimized for it in that case.

If you compare, say, Rise of the Tomb Raider (ran better in DX11) with Shadow of the Tomb Raider (ran better in DX12) you can see how performance has improved as developers have become more familiar with the API and as drivers have matured.

Which is pretty much how these things always go.

www.overclock3d.net

Shadow of the Tomb Raider PC Performance Review - OC3D

Introduction Since the release of Tomb Raider (2013), the franchise has been the poster child of PC gaming’s graphical supremacy over consoles, starting with the game’s use of TressFX on the rebooted series’ first entry and ending with planned RTX and DLSS support for the game’s latest...

With Shadow of the Tomb Raider, things have improved significantly, so much so that DirectX 12 is the recommended API for the title, with DirectX 11 offering support for pre-Windows 10 operating systems and little else.

After testing the two APIs on both AMD Polaris, Vega architectures and Nvidia Pascal, we can conclude that none of these graphics cards delivers increased performance levels under DirectX 11, making DirectX 12 the only API worth using within Shadow of the Tomb Raider.

16123043144l.jpg


Edit: Used better source.
 
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LabRat

Member
Mar 16, 2018
4,231
playing the game on launch is going to be a gamble anyway, not only because of dx12 but do you honestly expect cdpr to get the balancing for combat and even stuff like the UI right at launch? i don't and i have no problem waiting for a couple patches or even until the next gen versions are out
 

Ruruja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,713
DX12 usually runs a few FPS better for me, but also crashes a lot more than DX11 in games I've used it on. Always ended up going back to DX11.
 

Vintage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,292
Europe
If it means they have more time to focus on DX12 instead of implementing DX11, then it may be a good thing.
 

Birbos

Alt Account
Banned
May 15, 2020
1,354
I mean I'm sure that means it will be implemented well. All other games seem to almost tack it on since it's not the main api. I'm especially confident in CDPR to do this right.
 

Birbos

Alt Account
Banned
May 15, 2020
1,354
DX12 usually runs a few FPS better for me, but also crashes a lot more than DX11 in games I've used it on. Always ended up going back to DX11.
That's the issue. Devs concentrate more on the dx11 implementation in this scenerio. Only using directx 12 should ensure it performs very well here. Especially coming from CDPR.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,407
FIN
Is this really news?

Game has extensive use of ray tracing, that requires game to utilize DX12.
 

sweetmini

Member
Jun 12, 2019
3,921
My gaming PC is still on 7 for games. (i dislike the visuals of 10 very much, the long updates and loathe the cortana/bing integration and lack of control for some policies when you didn't have a volume licensing subject to monthly fee last year ... and i don't even count the destroyed backward compatibility... no more win95 games playing in there).
With a little luck the game will have a linux release close to launch, otherwise, i will have no choice but have a multiboot with 10 just for the game.
 

SmartWaffles

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,244
The worry makes no sense as games built from the ground up with low level APIs like a lot of the MS first party games run very well.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,680
That's the issue. Devs concentrate more on the dx11 implementation in this scenerio. Only using directx 12 should ensure it performs very well here. Especially coming from CDPR.

I suppose it makes a lot of sense considering they also have the markting deal with MS and Xbox One And Series X are DX12 / Ultimate natively.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
Is this really news?

Game has extensive use of ray tracing, that requires game to utilize DX12.
The news is that it's only DX12, unlike a lot of other games using ray tracing that have DX11 support too.

But, honestly, if you're using ray tracing these days, supporting DX11 doesn't make sense. There was a time where it did, cause Windows 7 didn't have DX12 support. But it doesn't make sense now that it does (kinda).
 

Braag

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,908
DX 11 is nearly always better when given the option
Not true... kinda. If the game is from start made for DX12 like Gears 5, it runs really well.
There are also examples like Shadow of the Tomb Raider which runs a lot better on DX12.
It all depends on the developer and game. It's true that there are half assed DX12 games which run worse than on DX11.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
I am not worried about this at all - it is a big open world game with a lot oh high quality assets and NPCs and probably tons of draw calls. If it had a DX11 option its CPU performance would suck probably.
 

Dunfisch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
222
This means I'd need to get W10, where I have adamantly kept away from it as long as I can... well, some other programs I work with require W10 in their current versions too, so I guess I gotta do that :/ .
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
This means I'd need to get W10, where I have adamantly kept away from it as long as I can... well, some other programs I work with require W10 in their current versions too, so I guess I gotta do that :/ .
Not necessarily.

www.pcworld.com

Microsoft ports DirectX 12 to Windows 7, giving some older PC games a performance boost

Microsoft is porting DirectX 12 to Windows 7 on a game-by-game basis. The first game to deliver will be World of Warcraft, with others to follow.
 

Mass Effect

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
16,763
Yeah this isn't something I'm really worried about. Proper DX12 games run just fine in my experience.
 

Teamocil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,132
How many DX12 games are there? Aren't most of them just DX11 with a 12 option?

and who gives a shit about Windows 7? The loud vocal minority of users on it will just have to upgrade to a modern OS. They're long overdue anyway
 

pksu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,239
Finland
People (who are not developers) focus too much on technical choices like graphics API used without really understanding the context imo.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,996
If you compare, say, Rise of the Tomb Raider (ran better in DX11) with Shadow of the Tomb Raider (ran better in DX12) you can see how performance has improved as developers have become more familiar with the API and as drivers have matured.
A lot of this is a skewed narrative because people were only looking at average frame rates in the game's built-in benchmark.
Here's my testing from back in April (I can't believe it was even this year, that feels so long ago now).

I ran some tests today and saw some marginal differences when GPU-limited, but significant differences when CPU-limited.
The in-game benchmark does not tell the whole story. I loaded up Geothermal Valley in-game and ran to this point:
rottrqaje0.jpg


I turned down the resolution, and set all graphical options except for LOD and Foliage as low as they could go - to put the game in as much of a CPU-bound state as possible.
The result is that the CPU had far higher utilization in DX12, and frame rate was 37% faster on average with my Ryzen 1700X.

DX11:​
dx11o9jep.png
  • Average framerate: 60.5 FPS
  • Maximum framerate: 75.0 FPS
  • 1% low framerate: 52.1 FPS
DX12:​
dx12e2j0z.png
  • Average framerate: 82.7 FPS
  • Maximum framerate: 139.5 FPS
  • 1% low framerate: 62.0 FPS
There is a lot of bad data out there regarding CPU performance in games; but particularly with DX12 game performance.
Much of the DX12 testing is done in GPU-limited scenarios, canned benchmarks, with high-end CPUs capable of pushing past bottlenecks of DX11, or in situations where a CPU is already working at its limit.
Even though Rise of the Tomb Raider has a section of its benchmark set in Geothermal Valley, it doesn't show results like those above. You need to be testing in gameplay.

I ran some tests in the Resident Evil 3 demo the other day, which showed that on less-capable CPUs, the game will stutter in DX11 mode but not DX12.
DX11 mode did perform marginally better on my Ryzen system when it has access to 16 threads at 3.9 GHz, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be situations where the lower overhead of DX12 comes into play. I can deal with a few percent less maximum performance if it means the game runs better when the engine is stressed the most.
That doesn't mean DX12 is always better though. Deus Ex: Mankind Divided still performs better in DX11 mode on every system I've tested it with; even in scenarios where you might think it would help.
 

Talus

Banned
Dec 9, 2017
1,386
DX12 has been better than dx11 for a while now. At the beginning it was rough... but things are a lot different now. Glad to see then dumping DX11 and focusing on newer tech. Thats the only way developers are going to become better and more proficient at DX12 code.
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,144
DirectX12 is necessary with its extra functionality. We couldn't ride out DX11 forever.

In terms of base performance if you're making a game that only uses DX11 features, the performance really puts the game maker up against the driver manufacturer. If the driver maker did a better job, it would run better in DX11.