• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
To Preface-

This thread does not seek to deride Caucasian folks. The impetus for this thread lies with long time personal observations on the (average) visual disparity between the rendition of skin types, specifically between those with and those without notable melanin count.

However, there is a rather poignant poem, "And You Call Me Colored" by poet, Agra Gra (nominated by The United Nations as the Best Poem of 2006) that I would like to share:

When I was born I was black

When I was sad I was black

When I was hot I was black

When I was sick I was black

When I was scared I was black


When you was born you was pink

When you was sad you was blue

When you was hot you was red

When you was sick you was green

When you was scared you was yellow


And you call me colored.

Since the dawn on 7th generation of consoles, when "Shaders" became the "thing", real time 3D technology strived towards ever more realistic renditions of the real world. And in the 8th, with help of physically based rendering/lighting, photogrammetry and 3D scanning of people, technologically we are that much closer to the threshold of photo realism in real time.

Photo-realism has essentially been achieved (unless folks pixel peep for low res textures) for many inorganic objects in real time and courtesy of libraries like Quixel, deploying them is becoming ever more cost effective.

Of course, the kick is human beings and that pesky thing called, 'Uncanny Valley' effect. However, in all the justifiable noise generated by it, an amazing occurrence has seemingly escaped some folks (given I have not seen anyone else make a thread with this topic or akin to it, I assume that number is quite high)- Current rendering pipeline, specifically sub surface scattering, really favours melanin rich skin tones-
  • They can have seemingly more uniform oiliness across the surface area unlike paler skin types where stretching and squeezing of skin around specific facial features more notably alters light scattering pattern.
  • Said skin profile also produces small differences in colouration that darker skin tones may be able to obfuscate better.
As a result, darker skin tones (esp. the darker they are) have a greater degree of immunity from said, Uncanny Valley effect. Of course, this is from a general rendering perspective.

I would like to share the following few examples (screenshots) in support-

Halo 5's in-engine cutscenes:

M3LwOOt.jpg

JjI87T0.png

TDtpOkw.png

343PgvZ.jpg

Agent Locke essentially looks utterly life-like compared to very good-looking digital characters.

Gameplay:

EPAhzqk.jpg

APIIOZu.jpg

Gears 5's in-engine cutscenes:

QpyGWDI.jpg
muOogVY.jpg

cDHcZas.jpg

IXDtYRx.jpg

While not as pronounced as Halo 5, both Kait and especially Del look notably closer to the photo realism threshold in terms of fidelity, albeit the overall aesthetic is closer to Uncharted's 'stylized' aesthetic.

Horizon Zero Dawn's in-dialogue (LoD 0 models with added lighting for elevated fidelity) shots. Aloy is featured as point of comparison:

c76ce21138186604.png

7457541138186164.png

0e71b81138146874.png

ff91c71138146634.png

7236741138133424.png

5c3b3a1138132494.png

e71dfc1138245874.png

f08be01138246064.png

Note that HZD does not go for outright photorealism as well- there is a layer of sheen like Uncharted, Gears, probably to stave off incursion of uncanny valley effect.

Jedi Fallen Order's gameplay screens:

4Q9gJIc.jpg

icoL9bW.jpg

NYtneeH.jpg

Coi4jIt.jpg

Death Stranding and Detroit Become Human are two other games that illustrate this point superbly well but I am afraid I do not have the appropriate screenshots.

Below is an example of Squadron 42's work with skin rendering and animation that illustrates things like blend shapes that deal with muscle movement and corresponding creases (incl. affecting wrinkles) and especially blood flow:

Watch in HD

Full video

Depending on the melanin count, at least one of these aspects is far more forgiving (pssst…. It's the blood flow which results in colour variations).

The current form of sub surface scattering makes the darker skin tones look more natural compared to paler tones of caucasians. It is weird that in the race to attain more and more realistic CGI human (i.e. white folks being the benchmark and the complexity of rendering the pale skin type has very little margin for error before diving head first into uncanny valley), graphics engineers have already ensured that the darker skinned folks are represented very favourably, even if it is incidental.

So, why do I bring this up now?

Things are changing in terms of representation but there is a notable dearth of brown and black folks, especially, ESPECIALLY, women of (darker) colour in AA and AAA story driven SP games. Given where the technology is at when it comes to rendering folks with more melanin, the time has never been better.
 

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,611
Death Stranding and Detroit Become Human are two other games that illustrate this point superbly well but I am afraid I do not have the appropriate screenshots.
KNNmTqu.png

rXD1z0x.png

Animation is the big bit in this scene above but KojiPro did a good job of capturing Tommie Earl Jenkins' likeness alongside the rest of the cast.

if you know, you know.
 

Evodelu

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 19, 2019
558
Beautiful stuff, thanks for making this thread. Another reminder that we live in a world that has been hostile to dark skin folks like me.
 
OP
OP
Hey Please

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Animation is the big bit in this scene above but KojiPro did a good job of capturing Tommie Earl Jenkins' likeness alongside the rest of the cast.

if you know, you know.

Yep, not only is his digital double faithfully and photorealistically rendered but the animation well and truly brought him to life.

Beautiful stuff, thanks for making this thread. Another reminder that we live in a world that has been hostile to dark skin folks like me.

You're most welcome.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,624
KNNmTqu.png

rXD1z0x.png

Animation is the big bit in this scene above but KojiPro did a good job of capturing Tommie Earl Jenkins' likeness alongside the rest of the cast.

if you know, you know.

It's a really small thing but you know what I like? The fact that his (from his perspective) left eye is slightly squinted.

Why am I pointing that out? Because outside of scarring and dirt/grime, usually face structures for characters (personally) tend to skew into nearly perfectly symmetrical.

That little squint gives the character model just a bit more life by showing a slight imperfection that everyone has.
 

benzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,260
Tbf to Death Stranding, white people look equally as photoreal imo. The character rendering in DS is just amazing.

cbbDEATHSTRANDING202001.png


acdDEATHSTRANDING202001.png
 

Fawz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,657
Montreal
I thought most games did a good job in cutscenes where the camera is up close, the lighting controlled and the fidelity high quality. But when it's back to dynamic gameplay camera where lighting can be botched, models don't move much and the bright surroundings mute the skin color then it looks pretty bad and jarring. It's much more prenounced on background NPCs
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Damn, OP. This is a good point.

I never noticed except maybe sub-consciously but you're completely right.

Make all MCs tan to very dark-skinned now.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,680
Isn't this from the live action series? If not... GODDAMN I need to play Quantum Break already.

it's an impressive looking game , the main characters are all crazy detailed. I don't think you see ol' Lance much in the game, he's very mysterious and almost supernatural in how he shows up (very Remedy). Annoyingly I can't find many decent shots of him that in in game (I'm not even entirely sure if that 1st one is!)
Quantum-Break-4.jpg
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,170
Y'know, I noticed this all the way back during the original Crysis, where Psycho ends up look a bit off next to his darker-skinned comrades. Launched the game just to take a screenshot:

ua0oaJg.jpg
 
Jan 21, 2019
2,902
Tbf to Death Stranding, white people look equally as photoreal imo. The character rendering in DS is just amazing.

cbbDEATHSTRANDING202001.png


acdDEATHSTRANDING202001.png
While all faces are awesome. The Caucasian faces look kinda waxy (I think this is something unique about the engine, I like it) but Diehard-man looks absolutely insane. I lost it when I saw his face, I couldn't believe my PS4 pro was rendering that face. I can't even imagine what Horizon 2 will look like.
 

HTupolev

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,419
I wonder if it's mostly that top-layer specular is done fairly well these days. Darker skin pigmentation results from increased light absorption below that top-layer specular, which decreases the relative prominence of other effects (some of which may not be getting handled as convincingly).
 
OP
OP
Hey Please

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
xneezy I was thinking of that gif as I was making this thread and how when I scrolled past it for the first time, I had to do a double take because I couldn't believe that was from a real time game.

Laiza Yep, Prophet looks that much closer to a real person.

Isn't this from the live action series? If not... GODDAMN I need to play Quantum Break already.

That specific shot is. You can tell by the hair and how light diffuses across it.

Here are some additional examples:

Deus Ex Mankind Divided:

General gameplay-

Dialogue segments-


Horizon Zero Dawn - Frozen Wilds:

Dialogue segments-


Again, this stands another great reason for greater diversity, especially women in Playable Character capacity.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,623
You are absolutely correct and also correct about why it's more feasible now.
Bioware talked about it when making DAI.

Lack of sub surface scattering really hurt darker skin tones extra as the skin would look extra chalky and darker skin is more "shiny" (due to the oils and sweat being more visible) as well as smoother looking when compared to whiter skin. This is basically impossible to convey without a good subsurface scattering.
 

Evodelu

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 19, 2019
558
It's a really small thing but you know what I like? The fact that his (from his perspective) left eye is slightly squinted.

Why am I pointing that out? Because outside of scarring and dirt/grime, usually face structures for characters (personally) tend to skew into nearly perfectly symmetrical.

That little squint gives the character model just a bit more life by showing a slight imperfection that everyone has.
Great catch.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,623
this face looks like it went through an overactive unblemishing instagram filter
The only problem I have with skin in Death Stranding is that the skins seem a bit too smooth, especially apparent on LĂ©a Seydoux as her skin is overly smooth and it seems poreless looking. I think Death Stranding animates better than any game out there atm but in terms of overall skin shaders I'd put Detroit above it.

However it does have one character whose face looks better than even Detroit. That character is Die Hardman imo he is quite possibly the most realistic looking and animating face I've seen this gen.
 
Last edited:

Observable

Member
Oct 27, 2017
946
Yes this is something I've been noticing more and more lately and it's great. Thanks for highlighting this.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,581
This would be an interesting inversion of the norm, where rendering and photographic techniques tend to favour lighter skin simply because when it came to trying to adjust the techniques to make "humans" look better, the pool of reference subjects was predominantly light-skinned.

I wonder if this is representative of more modern techniques being fine-tuned using a wider diversity of reference subjects, or if somehow the specific technical details conspired to make darker-skinned people the beneficiaries this time around.
 

Deleted member 56306

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2019
2,383
Man, this is such a good thread. Thanks OP. One thing I've noticed now is just how vibrant some of the darker skin options are now. Back in the day there were dark skinned options but they looked a little ashy.
 

Evodelu

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 19, 2019
558
Man, this is such a good thread. Thanks OP. One thing I've noticed now is just how vibrant some of the darker skin options are now. Back in the day there were dark skinned options but they looked a little ashy.
Bethesda are a terrible offender in particular. Dark skin characters look awful in their games. They aren't exactly know for polish...
 

moru0

Member
Oct 30, 2017
24
This would be an interesting inversion of the norm, where rendering and photographic techniques tend to favour lighter skin simply because when it came to trying to adjust the techniques to make "humans" look better, the pool of reference subjects was predominantly light-skinned.

I wonder if this is representative of more modern techniques being fine-tuned using a wider diversity of reference subjects, or if somehow the specific technical details conspired to make darker-skinned people the beneficiaries this time around.
I second this. For example some game companies in Asia do not have a high number of dark skinned people, even at the biggest ones it is often pretty close to 0. When it comes to photogrammetry, artists capture reference shots from people they can find in their workplace. If they want a black person reference, they would have to hire a model for that. I am often the only black guy working in those places. It happened to me several times that an artist shows up to my desk and ask me if I am available for taking random reference shots of my skin. Always super awkward but if it helps, why not!
 

Sirhc

Hasn't made a thread yet. Shame me.
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,050
Fantastic OP, those Halo 5 pictures are nuts. Interesting to see similar results across so many engines and lighting models.

Kicking myself now for missing that pink poncho in FO, would have rocked that thing hard.
 

PlayBee

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 8, 2017
5,531
For a few years now I've thought that darker skinned people tend to look more realistic in games than light skinned ones. A lot of times white people in games just look off.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
Tommie Earl Jenkins face in Death Stranding is otherworldly. Everyone looks outstanding, but something about him just floored me. It's in the eyes.
 
Oct 27, 2017
993
So, why do I bring this up now?

Things are changing in terms of representation but there is a notable dearth of brown and black folks, especially, ESPECIALLY, women of (darker) colour in AA and AAA story driven SP games. Given where the technology is at when it comes to rendering folks with more melanin, the time has never been better.
Great thread, and thanks for highlighting the point above.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,641
While all faces are awesome. The Caucasian faces look kinda waxy (I think this is something unique about the engine, I like it) but Diehard-man looks absolutely insane. I lost it when I saw his face, I couldn't believe my PS4 pro was rendering that face. I can't even imagine what Horizon 2 will look like.
Yeah they look waxy unless they artificially add freckles to white faces.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
I have often thought that game rendering of whiter skin tones come out looking quite waxy.

My assumption has always been that it's much harder to reproduce the complexity of light interaction through multiple layers of more translucent skin.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,851
Yeah, i also noticed that black characters in games tend to look better rendered whan white ones recently.

I might be completely wrong but i tend to think that's due to shadows. Shadows cast on a dark surface look darker than when cast on a light surface. So with a good lightning applied, the defaults of blacks character models would be hidden much more easily than on white characters. Making the darker skinned people much more lifelike in the process, as our eyes tend to catch on things that look wrong.

But that's mostly true only in cutscenes. The effect seem less convincing during regular gameplay. (Wich is also true for lighter skin characters)
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,951
Would it be divertive to also mention that scenes with darker tones or shades appear to be much more realistic than brighter ones in most real time rendering engines?

One scene in particular which highlights this would be the synthetic graveyard scene in Detroit:Become Human.