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Gen X

Member
Oct 31, 2017
987
New Zealand
I bought a Dolby Atmos home amplifier on Monday after a little bit of research and then I was disappointed that PS4 doesn't support it nor can I stream it over optical from the TV when using Netflix. I can understand some people use headphones because of either lack of space or privacy from annoying family late at night but you can't beat a home system. I'm waiting with baited breath to see what audio formats are supported on consoles next gen, fingers crossed for DTS-X and Dolby Atmos. Anything less will he disappointing
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,020
I bought a Dolby Atmos home amplifier on Monday after a little bit of research and then I was disappointed that PS4 doesn't support it nor can I stream it over optical from the TV when using Netflix.
You need to use ARC/eARC for Atmos from the TV's apps (if the TV supports this).

I'm waiting with baited breath to see what audio formats are supported on consoles next gen, fingers crossed for DTS-X and Dolby Atmos. Anything less will he disappointing
I wouldn't expect Sony to support these formats on the PS5. I expect that Microsoft will continue to support them with XSX.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,440
They seem to have improved it, but it still doesn't work in every game.
Someone in the DTS thread linked to this XAudio2 patch, which is supposed to fix the problem, but I'm very hesitant to modify/replace system DLL files.

I have been meaning to test placing a copy of the file in the game directory and modifying that, rather than the system file, to see if it works.

Ah, that's a bummer. I guess I'll still have it for actually Atmos supported games but I'll still use SBX as my mainstay then.
 

Gen X

Member
Oct 31, 2017
987
New Zealand
You need to use ARC/eARC for Atmos from the TV's apps (if the TV supports this).


I wouldn't expect Sony to support these formats on the PS5. I expect that Microsoft will continue to support them with XSX.

My TV doesn't have ARC and believe it not I never knew what it was until the other day. From my understanding is that the TV doesn't need to support Atmos if you have ARC as the audio will be passed through the telly straight to the amplifier. Telly only needs to support ARC if you're hooking up something direct like a soundbar. This is my understanding anyway.

And if Sony doesn't support Atmos then there won't be a sale in my household despite having PlayStations since 1994. Home theatre is my priority now and I'd rather buy an Xbox X than a standalone UHD player.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,020
And if Sony doesn't support Atmos then there won't be a sale in my household despite having PlayStations since 1994. Home theatre is my priority now and I'd rather buy an Xbox X than a standalone UHD player.
Oh, it might support playback of an Atmos bitstream from Blu-ray discs. I think the PS4 still does that.
What I don't expect is support for Atmos encoding during gameplay, like the Xbox does.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,228
5.1/7.1 surround sound speaker setup nowhere near as good as a current simulated 3D audio on PC for headphones sounds.

There is no way a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker setup can come close to headphones as far as positioning goes. It's not really close no matter the setup and probably never will be.

Err...



Back in the late 90s, the A3D cards were about the best you could possibly get in terms of positioning, maybe equal to, or even surpassing a true multichannel speaker setup, but with the intimacy and clairty of headphones (which I think is what you might actually be thinking of, not positioning). Since Creative Labs caused Aureal to go bankrupt and then bought their assets, there wasn't really anything to replace those cards, and the next best thing came in the form of Dolby Headphone, which was something I've been using in various forms from PC to console gaming and movies for over a decade now.

In no way, shape or form does it come close to the positional audio capabilities of an actual speaker setup. But it's often much easier to simply hear cues over headphones than it is speakers unless you have the speakers up pretty loud.

With the A8 and A16 you get the benefit of the better positional audio that speakers provide, with the intimacy and clarity of headphones. I have the A8, which only allows for 7.1 (waiting for my A16 to arrive in a few months), but it's still like a multi-generational leap over what any other similar consumer 3D audio device can do right now. It seems like Sony is trying to offer something like this, but it's still going to be a moot point if they don't allow you to do a personalized HRTF. You'll just end up with Dolby Headphone 2.0. Which is at least, something...
 
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Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,020
It would be severely underwhelming for them to not support it since they are finally adding a UHD drive.
As I said above, I believe the PS4 already supports Atmos bitstreams for Blu-ray playback. That basically means it can pass through pre-recorded Atmos content to your AVR.
What I am not expecting is for the PS5 to have the ability to encode game audio to Atmos. I hope that it can, but I'm doubtful.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,228
As I said above, I believe the PS4 already supports Atmos bitstreams for Blu-ray playback. That basically means it can pass through pre-recorded Atmos content to your AVR.
What I am not expecting is for the PS5 to have the ability to encode game audio to Atmos. I hope that it can, but I'm doubtful.

Right, which I saw after posting and edited it out. I highly doubt they will use Atmos for any of their games, especially since they are trying to implement their own method of object based audio. No idea how Tempest is supposed to interact with an actual speaker setup though, if it is at all. If not, are people just going to be stuck with 5.1 and 7.1?
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,429
Err...



Back in the late 90s, the A3D cards were about the best you could possibly get in terms of positioning, maybe equal to, or even surpassing a true multichannel speaker setup, but with the intimacy and clairty of headphones (which I think is what you might actually be thinking of, not positioning). Since Creative Labs caused Aureal to go bankrupt and then bought their assets, there wasn't really anything to replace those cards, and the next best thing came in the form of Dolby Headphone, which was something I've been using in various forms from PC to console gaming and movies for over a decade now.

In no way, shape or form does it come close to the positional audio capabilities of an actual speaker setup. But it's often much easier to simply hear cues over headphones than it is speakers unless you have the speakers up pretty loud.

With the A8 and A16 you get the benefit of the better positional audio that speakers provide, with the intimacy and clarity of headphones. I have the A8, which only allows for 7.1 (waiting for my A16 to arrive in a few months), but it's still like a multi-generational leap over what any other similar consumer 3D audio device can do right now. It seems like Sony is trying to offer something like this, but it's still going to be a moot point if they don't allow you to do a personalized HRTF. You'll just end up with Dolby Headphone 2.0. Which is at least, something...



It would be severely underwhelming for them to not support it since they are finally adding a UHD drive.

In a fixed setup you will always be dependent on the speaker placement and won't get 3d audio to the same extent.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,228
In a fixed setup you will always be dependent on the speaker placement and won't get 3d audio to the same extent.

This makes no sense, especially when you consider Atmos is object based, and not channel based, and the A16 does Atmos. Furthermore, I have the means to compare a speaker setup vs positional audio over headphones and a speaker setup over headphones, and using an actual speaker setup over headphones trumps everything else right now.

As I previously said, stuff like Dolby Headphone was a copy of a fixed speaker setup, and based off of someone else's HRTF. What Sony seems to be wanting to do is copy a multichannel Atmos speaker setup and have that play back over headphones, but it will still not be as good as the setup they copied without your own HRTF, or having one that comes close enough to the options they provide.

Sony isn't doing what Areal did with their 3D cards, it's closer to Dolby Headphone, but using Atmos instead of just 5.1 or 7.1. And of course they are going to hype it up as the next big thing, whether it actually pans out to be or not.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,429
This makes no sense, especially when you consider Atmos is object based, and not channel based, and the A16 does Atmos. Furthermore, I have the means to compare a speaker setup vs positional audio over headphones and a speaker setup over headphones, and using an actual speaker setup over headphones trumps everything else right now.

As I previously said, stuff like Dolby Headphone was a copy of a fixed speaker setup, and based off of someone else's HRTF. What Sony seems to be wanting to do is copy a multichannel Atmos speaker setup and have that play back over headphones, but it will still not be as good as the setup they copied without your own HRTF, or having one that comes close enough to the options they provide.

Sony isn't doing what Areal did with their 3D cards, it's closer to Dolby Headphone, but using Atmos instead of just 5.1 or 7.1. And of course they are going to hype it up as the next big thing, whether it actually pans out to be or not.
Atmos sets itself apart by allowing audio engineers to specify a position for a sound, rather than determining its position by mixing it across channels. Atmos will then use the position of an audio cue as provided by audio engineers and do the rest of the mixing itself, sending it to the appropriate channels depending on where each speaker is located. In short, it can take the audio as specified by a movie or game's audio engineers and interpret it to fit any given system.

majorhifi.com

Dolby Atmos - When It Comes to Headphones

Dolby Atmos - When It Comes to Headphones
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,059
Cerny spent a lot of time talking about binaural audio and headphones. But does Tempest audio also handle object based audio and environmental impacts to sounds (reflection off surfaces, absorption etc)?

I'm much more likely to play with a 5.1 system than headphones so would still like to see some benefit from that.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,228
Atmos sets itself apart by allowing audio engineers to specify a position for a sound, rather than determining its position by mixing it across channels. Atmos will then use the position of an audio cue as provided by audio engineers and do the rest of the mixing itself, sending it to the appropriate channels depending on where each speaker is located. In short, it can take the audio as specified by a movie or game's audio engineers and interpret it to fit any given system.

majorhifi.com

Dolby Atmos - When It Comes to Headphones

Dolby Atmos - When It Comes to Headphones

What exactly are you trying to explain with this? Sony's implementation isn't exactly the same as that. They are trying to copy what Atmos does, but when they bring up having a few HRTF options for users to select and possibly copy their own, they aren't using the same methodology as what you linked, and more like using a captured multichannel Atmos speaker setup.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,429
What exactly are you trying to explain with this? Sony's implementation isn't exactly the same as that. They are trying to copy what Atmos does, but when they bring up having a few HRTF options for users to select and possibly copy their own, they aren't using the same methodology as what you linked, and more like using a captured multichannel Atmos speaker setup.
You tell me. You quoted me originally. The phrase you quoted never was regarding Sony specifically.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,228
You tell me. You quoted me originally. The phrase you quoted never was regarding Sony.

Yes, I quoted your claim that a speaker setup will never match the positional audio you can get over headphones, which isn't accurate at all. I then linked an example of why that's not true, then your comeback was "uh fixed speakers", then you link an article about what Atmos does, when I already know what it does. I don't know what you're trying to say.

If you are specifically talking about stuff like Windows Sonic and Atmos over headphone being better than a standard 5.1 or 7.1 speaker setup, I don't really know what to say. Subjectively, the 7.1 speaker setup is still way more convincing to me, and I can get that over headphones.
 

Saidur_Ali

Member
Dec 23, 2019
33
Sony's main aim seems to be ensuring 3D audio is supported at a system level and creating rendering & virtualization systems that make it possible for anyone to experience it without the need for additional hardware, which isn't the case on PS4. They've dedicated considerable power to audio to ensure that bit-depth and sample rates stay high as we scale up not only the amount of sound sources but the environmental responses for each individual sound.



Yes and no.


I'm aware...

This is a bit more involved than just having a DSP.
PS5 audio chip seems seriously powerful given it is more powerful than full CPU of current generation consoles developers had access to. Are we looking at maybe 150x over Series X dedicated audio processing power if one can handle over 5000 sound sources while the other might be limited to 32. If advanced sound sources then might be just over 6X processing power? Combined with faster audio ray tracing processing on PS5 over Series X, will that lower latency allow for player to have more of a connection with the sound due to less latency and more depth to it? Hopefully third party developers utilise the extra power and not just first party. Could developers utilise the extra compute power of Series X for audio to make up for the deficit or will that be too inefficient?
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,429
Yes, I quoted your claim that a speaker setup will never match the positional audio you can get over headphones, which isn't accurate at all. I then linked an example of why that's not true, then your comeback was "uh fixed speakers", then you link an article about what Atmos does, when I already know what it does. I don't know what you're trying to say.

If you are specifically talking about stuff like Windows Sonic and Atmos over headphone being better than a standard 5.1 or 7.1 speaker setup, I don't really know what to say. Subjectively, the 7.1 speaker setup is still way more convincing to me, and I can get that over headphones.

How? 7.1 speaker are on a horizontal plane. How does that address vertical or spatial sound reasonably well?
 

P40L0

Member
Jun 12, 2018
7,628
Italy
Very excited for the increased focus on audio in PS5, hopefully the XSX will keep up.
Lol at this again.
As explained in detail, it will be the exact opposite of that.

Xbox already delivered true and actual 3D Audio for both speakers and Headphones through a dedicated audio chip since 2017 on OG Xbox One.
This was possible thanks to Microsoft "Spatial Audio" APIs which were implemented system wide both on Windows 10 and Xbox Dashboard OS.

Sony will try to do the same thing starting with PS5, where "Tempest" = "Spatial Audio" APIs alternative.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
Cerny spent a lot of time talking about binaural audio and headphones. But does Tempest audio also handle object based audio and environmental impacts to sounds (reflection off surfaces, absorption etc)?

I'm much more likely to play with a 5.1 system than headphones so would still like to see some benefit from that.

It's a GPU CU with a modified local memory setup. It can do whatever devs want within its performance envelope.

Side note: I think the thread may be a bit like the 2020 audio equivalent of 1990s threads asking what the big deal with GPUs are since 'my CPU can do transform+lighting just fine'. And then ignoring that there might be a continuum of quality to explore beyond simply being able to 'do' 3D or not. Might there be a continuum of audio quality to explore beyond simply having an object-based audio API or not? From what audio engineers suggest: absolutely, yes.

The 'big deal', or the excitement among audio engineers, I think, is that it'll give an outsized boost to audio processing resources vs the prior gen. And give a boost to something that has generally enjoyed the crumbs off the table in terms of processing resources. If they were getting 10 or 20% of a single core last gen, they'll have 40-80 times the simd performance available next-gen for audio from a processor like Tempest. The excitement wasn't over some perception that Tempest was 'inventing' HRTFs or whatnot.
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,459
It's a GPU CU with a modified local memory setup. It can do whatever devs want within its performance envelope.

Side note: I think the thread may be a bit like the 2020 audio equivalent of 1990s threads asking what the big deal with GPUs are since 'my CPU can do transform+lighting just fine'. And then ignoring that there might be a continuum of quality to explore beyond simply being able to 'do' 3D or not. Might there be a continuum of audio quality to explore beyond simply having an object-based audio API or not? From what audio engineers suggest: absolutely, yes.

The 'big deal', or the excitement among audio engineers, I think, is that it'll give an outsized boost to audio processing resources vs the prior gen. And give a boost to something that has generally enjoyed the crumbs off the table in terms of processing resources. If they were getting 10 or 20% of a single core last gen, they'll have 40-80 times the simd performance available next-gen for audio from a processor like Tempest. The excitement wasn't over some perception that Tempest was 'inventing' HRTFs or whatnot.

Ding ding ding!

PS5 audio chip seems seriously powerful given it is more powerful than full CPU of current generation consoles developers had access to. Are we looking at maybe 150x over Series X dedicated audio processing power if one can handle over 5000 sound sources while the other might be limited to 32. If advanced sound sources then might be just over 6X processing power? Combined with faster audio ray tracing processing on PS5 over Series X, will that lower latency allow for player to have more of a connection with the sound due to less latency and more depth to it? Hopefully third party developers utilise the extra power and not just first party. Could developers utilise the extra compute power of Series X for audio to make up for the deficit or will that be too inefficient?

Don't know, I have spent considerably less time with XSX and am less well read on its innovations.
 
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EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,684
The thing that I still can't get over is if audio enginers or whoever is responsible for doing the audio in the first place didn't want to , or didn't have the time to use 3D audio for a single dynamic object or even a basic 7.1.4.4 setup why are they suddenly going to want to do hundreds?
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
The thing that I still can't get over is if audio enginers or whoever is responsible for doing the audio in the first place didn't want to , or didn't have the time to use 3D audio for a single dynamic object or even a basic 7.1.4.4 setup why are they suddenly going to want to do hundreds?

Because thery have the resources to do it and they will not fight for CPU resources.
 

ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
I prefer to believe you dont actually know that the Tmepest engine is and the possibilities it brings to the table. And if you want to talk about 3d audio in the current gen you should talk about PSVR.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Then why didn't they do it on the Xbox One?

Because on Xbox they had to fight for resources on CPU. It was why Ninja theory said they are happy to have a dedicated 3d audio processor. After I am not sure 3rd party will use but I suppose first party will use it out of VR.

twistedvoxel.com

SIE Bend Studio's Next Project Targets "Cinematic-Quality" Facial Animation, 3D Audio, and Online MP

SIE Bend Studio has released Days Gone last year, which was their first major new open-world IP for the PS4. They are now hiring for a new project.

Last SIE bend job offer ask an audio engineer with 3d audio experience.
 
OP
OP
Cats_Schrodinger
Oct 29, 2017
3,008
Because on Xbox they had to fight for resources on CPU. It was why Ninja theory said they are happy to have a dedicated 3d audio processor. After I am not sure 3rd party will use but I suppose first party will use it out of VR.

twistedvoxel.com

SIE Bend Studio's Next Project Targets "Cinematic-Quality" Facial Animation, 3D Audio, and Online MP

SIE Bend Studio has released Days Gone last year, which was their first major new open-world IP for the PS4. They are now hiring for a new project.

Last SIE bend job offer ask an audio engineer with 3d audio experience.

You can have 8.1.4.4 basebed with 16 dynamic objects on the Xbox One with the dedicated audio chip without impacting CPU performance.

This is what we've been talking about in this thread.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
You can have 8.1.4.4 basebed with 16 dynamic objects on the Xbox One with the dedicated audio chip without impacting CPU performance.

This is what we've been talking about in this thread.

www.videogameschronicle.com

Xbox Series X will have a dedicated audio chip, Ninja Theory engineers reveal | VGC

Hardware acceleration could enable 3D…

It seems what was on Xbox One was far from ideal and needed for realizing the goal of the audio engineer to tap into the CPU power because 16 objects are not enough. Audio engineers semes happy about having the possibility to have hundreds of object.

"It's extremely exciting," senior sound designer Daniele Galante said of the new console. "We're going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won't have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power."

The studio's audio lead David Garcia added: "We take for granted that graphics are powered by their own video cards. But in audio, we haven't had anything like that. Now we have some power dedicated to us."

But most of all, Ninja Theory's Galante said the next-gen console's audio innovations will mean engineers will be able to worry less about limiting the amount of sounds or voices used in their games.

"I really like how Microsoft is giving us more tools to improve the sound and to be more creative," he said. "Because at the end of the day it's not a matter of, 'we want more memory because we are more cool', we just want to be able to do our jobs without thinking about limitations.

"Making games always has you thinking about technical limitations," he added. "Eventually these limitations become less and less the more you evolve with new consoles, but at the same time it's always a constant thing: These are the maximum number of voices we can have, because otherwise the game is going to lag."
 
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P40L0

Member
Jun 12, 2018
7,628
Italy
Then why is a first party developer so excited for dedicated hardware on xbox series x?
Because with XSX you can have MUCH more dynamic objects to process for free, and also leverage the new Ray Tracing hardware features for "Audio Ray Tracing" (or Sound Wave Tracing if you prefer) too. A lot of devs are really thrilled especially about this.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Because with XSX you can have MUCH more dynamic objects to process for free, and also leverage the new Ray Tracing hardware features for "Audio Ray Tracing" (or Sound Wave Tracing if you prefer) too. A lot of devs are really thrilled especially about this.

But that's not what the Ninja Theory dev emphasized. He very specifically emphasized that he was so happy to have a dedicated audio chip.

"It's extremely exciting. We're going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won't have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power."

"finally."

He is not happy about the new power of the new chip. He is excited that there is a chip. He is excited he finally has a dedicated chip so he doesn't have to fight for CPU and memory.

This literally couldn't be more clear. I don't know how else you could say you are happy that you finally have hardware all to yourself than he is saying right now.

So it doesn't make sense then why he would say this if xbox one already had this great dedicated chip beforehand.
 

P40L0

Member
Jun 12, 2018
7,628
Italy
But that's not what the Ninja Theory dev emphasized. He very specifically emphasized that he was so happy to have a dedicated audio chip.

"It's extremely exciting. We're going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won't have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power."

"finally."

He is not happy about the new power of the new chip. He is excited that there is a chip. He is excited he finally has a dedicated chip so he doesn't have to fight for CPU and memory.

This literally couldn't be more clear. I don't know how else you could say you are happy that you finally have hardware all to yourself than he is saying right now.

So it doesn't make sense then why he would say this if xbox one already had this great dedicated chip beforehand.
They probably said this because Hellblade was originally created on PS4 (which didn't have the hardware audio chip), then ported on PC, then on Xbox.

The binaural audio they did for it was in fact all software, and included in their "Headphone" Audio preset.
They never leveraged Atmos on Xbox One, even if both hardware and technology were there.

They can do it from scratch now with Hellblade 2.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Playing Hellblade was eye opening and I am glad audio developers will have better hardware to do what they do best. I just hope more games will take advantage of these option.
Are we looking at maybe 150x over Series X dedicated audio processing power if one can handle over 5000 sound sources while the other might be limited to 32
This was the limit on Xbox One and not Xbox Series X.
 

Saidur_Ali

Member
Dec 23, 2019
33
Ding ding ding!



Don't know, I have spent considerably less time with XSX and am less well read on its innovations.
Ah OK. Personally looking forward to hearing hopefully next-gen Gran Turismo today. I wonder if it is now possible to have much more realistic car sounds with so much audio processing power, can only imagine how glorious it could be driving in tunnels in-game with the reverberation. It could look, sound and play spectacular. Even if they don't come close to nailing everything first go, the hardware potential is there to continuously improve to much higher heights instead of being largely constrained from the get-go which makes this probably the most exciting console so far.