• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Cyberclops

Member
Mar 15, 2019
1,443
Moving to Japan prompted me to start cooking mainly Japanese food (mainly because the it suits the ingredients that I can find here.) I've looked up recipes in both English and Japanese and the main difference seems to be that the English ones always treat Japanese food as exotic and special, requiring more steps and ingredients than the Japanese ones. I guess to the people that live here these are recipes that they cook often and need to be quick, easy and tasty.

That's not to say that a foreigner could've be an expert or an authority on Japanese food, but they're likely to be coming at it from a different angle when compared to a native.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,015
One of the best pastry chefs I met was a black woman and she focused on French technique. She promotes herself as an authority in French pastry technique. She's never been laughed out of the room and very respected in her field.

You gotta own it, man. No one will toot your own horn.

And going back to Bon Appetit, Sohla is very clearly the most technically proficient out of the entire group (yes, even Claire imo :D ) whenever there's a video of her, but her past experiences with being a French restauranteur failed so hard because she's a PoC.

Like, as much as we want to celebrate PoC in as many occupations and opportunities as we can, the structural disadvantages are enormous.

Moving to Japan prompted me to start cooking mainly Japanese food (mainly because the it suits the ingredients that I can find here.) I've looked up recipes in both English and Japanese and the main difference seems to be that the English ones always treat Japanese food as exotic and special, requiring more steps and ingredients than the Japanese ones. I guess to the people that live here these are recipes that they cook often and need to be quick, easy and tasty.

That's not to say that a foreigner could've be an expert or an authority on Japanese food, but they're likely to be coming at it from a different angle when compared to a native.

I gotta pipe in here. As an Asian, there aren't many people left in our age group that has the spare time to prepare elaborate and slow-cooked meals anymore so shortcuts are not taboo.

Making everything from scratch is a luxury that many of us don't have.
 

Cyberclops

Member
Mar 15, 2019
1,443
I gotta pipe in here. As an Asian, there aren't many people left in our age group that has the spare time to prepare elaborate and slow-cooked meals anymore so shortcuts are not taboo.

Making everything from scratch is a luxury that many of us don't have.

I absolutely love it. Fits in so well with my schedule and cooking ability.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,270
The discussion on what true "authenticity" in food is honestly often reads to me as a kind of accidentally reactionary take. What determines what recipe is "authentic"? As another poster mentioned, when does a regional variant on a traditional dish become culturally something completely distinct - from being a French recipe to being a Quebecois recipe? Think about how much of the conversation over what "authentic" Italian food is, is often just completely gibberish and has been totally muddled by decades of American Italians completely altering/inventing "traditional" recipes that never actually existed on any time scale deserving of the adjective "traditional" or how it was completely re-invented after the reconstruction of the Italian food industry post-World War II.

There's definitely cultural appropriation in food (though as ever what actual cultural appropriation is overlaps heavily with capitalism and class politics and how our society being controlled by predominantly rich and white power structures inherently produce outcomes with rich and white people in charge of the culture despite whatever roots anything has, rather than a random white person butchering a recipe on fajitas and calling it "authentic" on Facebook) yet I find the discussion on what true "authenticity" in food is to be incredibly tricky and very prone to extreme recency bias. Odds are whatever we think is "authentic" isn't actually, even when those recipes are coming from someone specifically from that ethnicity.

(And honestly, I'm still trying to figure out what the hell "white culture food" means. Talk about generalization. Are we talking about hot dogs or a boeuf à la Bourguignonne?)
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,610
I've always wondered where the boundaries between "Appropriated by Culture X" > "Part of Culture X" are.

Yoga is always what makes me think of this. Americans are introduced and taught yoga from other Americans who were introduced and taught yoga by Americans (and so on back for decades). At some point yoga is just part of U.S. culture, but it's also not part of U.S. culture if you go far enough back, but what delineates that?

It's like you know a river is freshwater and the ocean it empties into is saltwater, but about where they meet (I don't know, there's probably an actual science answer to this specific analogy, so maybe not a perfect one lol)?

I make a bunch of curry recipes for my family, and they're our favorites (we make more curry than any other dish). I got the recipes from some Indian friends of ours, and have over time tweaked them in certain ways (in one I substitute spinach for kale for my wife, that sort of thing). When my kids grow up and make them for their kids, and their kids make them for theirs, and so on, at which point do the recipes become part of our family tradition and not part of a separate thing? Is the kale version "mine" or still borrowed from my friends?
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,996
Houston
In addition to white voices and viewpoints being elevated when it comes to cuisine, it also highlights how PoC often struggle for recognition and legitimacy when it comes to cooking "white food."
what is "white food" ?

im white and i grew up with my mom making spaghetti, salads, and casseroles and grilled chicken, hamburgers and stuff. But i've literally never heard of "white food"
 

Deleted member 24097

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
704
Think about how much of the conversation over what "authentic" Italian food is, is often just completely gibberish and has been totally muddled by decades of American Italians completely altering/inventing "traditional" recipes that never actually existed on any time scale deserving of the adjective "traditional" or how it was completely re-invented after the reconstruction of the Italian food industry post-World War II.

Without involving the US, I think this is a good opportunity to remind people many of the plants eaten daily everywhere in the world that are considered staples and necessary ingredients in numerous "traditional" dishes, are in fact extremely recent imports in Human history.
Tomatoes and potatoes are native to Southern America. They were first brought to Europe as exotic plants in the 16th century.
Tomato only boomed in Italy during the 19th century, less than 200 years ago.
Around the same time as spaghetti.

Personally, as someone who's lived the first 20 years of my life in Europe, and the next 20 years in Asia, I'd say an argument could be made that it is impossible to "culturally appropriate" a food item - simply because food items create culture.

Someone was talking about Japanese Ramen. Ramen is a huge part of today's Japanese food culture and yet... It is a Chinese dish
Japanese curry is a household favorite for Japanese kids - but Japanese curry is an adaptation of British curry, itself a creation made upon Indian grounds.

When talking about who writes what kind of recipes, there are also practical factors that may influence drastically who reads what recipes.
Continuing with Japan as an example, let's take a look at one recipe that you're 100% certain to find in every single Japanese cookbook: Pot-au-feu.
Pot-au-feu is a traditional French dish that is made around beef and beef bones.
Yet, every Japanese cookbook, every Japanese online recipe will systematically replace those two central ingredients with... wieners, of all things.
(And Japanese wieners, by far and wide, aren't even made of pork, but mostly chicken meat...)

I've seen many French people brandishing their fists, yelling "you are all wrong, here's how real Pot-au-feu is made" - and they usually were lauded for it by the small local audiences they had access to.
But in the end?
Everyone always goes back to the wiener version, because beef is too expensive, and beef bones are hard to come by.
And the French people wouldn't have had enough reach to begin with anyways.
It is far, far harder to source a Pot-au-feu recipe written by a French person in Japan than it is to find a recipe of Maafe in English written by an actual Senegalese.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,015
Someone was talking about Japanese Ramen. Ramen is a huge part of today's Japanese food culture and yet... It is a Chinese dish
Japanese curry is a household favorite for Japanese kids - but Japanese curry is an adaptation of British curry, itself a creation made upon Indian grounds.

This is a complete exaggeration. Japanese Ramen shares no resemblance to the absolute variety of Chinese noodle dishes aside from noodles and a broth.

What I can agree with you on is that there has to be an organic cultural exchange of culinary ideas, especially as foods get passed around from culture to culture.

However, what's happening in the Western world with respect to colonialization and appropriation is that current Western food cultures push ethnic people out of their own cultural spaces while simultaneously removing the ability for said ethnic people to participate in the same level. Think of it as the culinary version of gentrification, where western whites claim these spaces for themselves.

There are also elements of exoticism as well, but I think I've written enough here.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
This is a complete exaggeration. Japanese Ramen shares no resemblance to the absolute variety of Chinese noodle dishes aside from noodles and a broth.
Ramen started as an attempt to create a Chinese dish in Japan, often (but not always) by Chinese people.
And I don't know if I agree that modern Ramen shares no resemblance to noodle dishes from China. I think it is fairly similar to a bunch of Chinese noodle soup dishes in terms of ingredients and techniques.
 

Deleted member 24097

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
704
This is a complete exaggeration. Japanese Ramen shares no resemblance to the absolute variety of Chinese noodle dishes aside from noodles and a broth.

Please.
Spare me that kind of condescending, pedantic micro-aggressions.
At no point did I say "Ramen are noodles. Ramen are Chinese. Therefore all Chinese noodles are ramen." This is a syllogism that you, and you alone, are putting in my mouth.
Now why not try to go and read a bit on the history of Japanese ramen before you go straight for the throat?

However, what's happening in the Western world with respect to colonialization and appropriation is that current Western food cultures push ethnic people out of their own cultural spaces while simultaneously removing the ability for said ethnic people to participate in the same level. Think of it as the culinary version of gentrification, where western whites claim these spaces for themselves.

There are also elements of exoticism as well, but I think I've written enough here.
I don't live in a Western country and haven't since before 9/11, so I'll have to take your word for it, but what I can tell you with absolute certainty is that it happens everywhere.

The reason people from original cultures are "pushed aside" is, at least in my experience, often related to the fact they are less willing to adapt to practical necessities: they tend to stick to ingredients that are broadly available in certain environments, but very hard to source for average people elsewhere.

One of my best, and favorite dishes is couscous. Whenever I make it, I make my own ras-el-hanout and harissa because there isn't a single place nearby where I could buy those.
I get my spices in bulk online and mix them the way I was taught.
I could write a detailed recipe online in Japanese for everyone here to use; but who is going to buy spices in bulk simply to try a recipe at home when they're not even certain what it's supposed to taste like?

I can't blame people for selecting recipes that, while they may not be 100% authentic, propose a close enough approximation while sticking to ingredients that are more accessible.

That's not cultural appropriation, that's simple pragmatism.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,015
Ramen started as an attempt to create a Chinese dish in Japan, often (but not always) by Chinese people.
And I don't know if I agree that modern Ramen shares no resemblance to noodle dishes from China. I think it is fairly similar to a bunch of Chinese noodle soup dishes in terms of ingredients and techniques.

The 'mouth feel' of Japanese Ramen compared to Chinese noodles in this day and age is very different. Broth, ingredients, style of preparation.

Like, you can go to literally any province and have different types of noodle dishes, ranging from rice to wheat to buckwheat to various clear or cloudy broths.

Please.
Spare me that kind of condescending, pedantic micro-aggressions.
At no point did I say "Ramen are noodles. Ramen are Chinese. Therefore all Chinese noodles are ramen." This is a syllogism that you, and you alone, are putting in my mouth.
Now why not try to go and read a bit on the history of Japanese ramen before you go straight for the throat?

Aaaaand I quote:

Someone was talking about Japanese Ramen. Ramen is a huge part of today's Japanese food culture and yet... It is a Chinese dish
Japanese curry is a household favorite for Japanese kids - but Japanese curry is an adaptation of British curry, itself a creation made upon Indian grounds.

Your words, not mine.

(Also, if we really want to go there, the origins of Japanese Ramen were originally wheat noodles with broth from the Hui, then transformed into other noodle dishes which then migrated to Japan in the 19/20th centuries, which gradually evolved into the current state of Japanese Ramen to date. It bares almost no similarity to anything on the Chinese mainland aside from the wheat noodles. Japanese Ramen is not a Chinese dish. It's not even on the same level of similarity as, say, Kimbap vs Sushi.)
 

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
The "sharing culture is good, no one has ownership over culture" takes in here have the exact same energy as "just hire the best actor for the job."

Willful ignorance of context in favor of a naive colorblindness that doesn't reflect our social reality.
 
Jun 6, 2019
1,231
The "sharing culture is good, no one has ownership over culture" takes in here have the exact same energy as "just hire the best actor for the job."

Willful ignorance of context in favor of a naive colorblindness that doesn't reflect our social reality.

Then give us a counter proposal. How would you like to handle this issue of cultural appropriation in food? Who gets to cook what? I want prescriptive ethics on the table. None of this "hurr durr, you guys sounds like diet racists but I'm too good to delve any deeper than that". That helps no one.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,901
JP
OP refers to the english US (maybe also the UK, australia , etc )web right?
This is what I thought. You don't google Mexican recipes in English if you're Mexican, lol. Last year a video recipe of an American woman cooking "pork pozole" went viral in Mexico because it had nothing to do with actual pozole (she just threw "Mexican" ingredients into a pot).


😰

About ramen - it evolved into its own thing but it absolutely originated in China, they didn't even change the name in Japan (拉麵). You could call it fusion cuisine I guess :P
 
Last edited:

cartographer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,005
First time in my life I've heard the term "white food". Is that American jargon?
It feel as though contextually it's clear based on the article its use came from.

what is "white food" ?

im white and i grew up with my mom making spaghetti, salads, and casseroles and grilled chicken, hamburgers and stuff. But i've literally never heard of "white food"
My use of it was echoing the use of it in the article for clarity's sake. It's not the term I would use, but in context of the article being discussed it would be clear for those who read it since the article addresses it directly in an early paragraph.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Yes because White people know nothing about other people culture.



Also yes as other culture know more about their food and how to cook it than white people.

White people really need to stay in their lane and stop stealing from other culture.

From my perspective here in South Korea, where Korean people are the ones serving sandwiches with ham and strawberry jam, pizza covered in corn, and sugared garlic bread, this is not a white vs. everyone else issue.

And of course plenty of white people know a lot about other cultures, to say otherwise is naive at best...

I think the best case scenario is that media representation should reflect the actual ethnic make up of the county—maybe skewed a bit in favor of more diversity. You of course won't be seeing a ton of Italian chefs on tv in Korea because the county is like 98% Korean. Just the same, if there were to be a play or movie about George Washington, for example, you'd better believe he would be played by a Korean person. In the West this would certainly be considered whitewashing but it is just considered common sense in Korea.
 
Last edited:

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
Then give us a counter proposal. How would you like to handle this issue of cultural appropriation in food? Who gets to cook what? I want prescriptive ethics on the table. None of this "hurr durr, you guys sounds like diet racists but I'm too good to delve any deeper than that". That helps no one.

Sorry to hear about your fragility. Notice how whenever the topic gets brought up we have people in here immediately dismissing the validity of cultural appropriation as a concept? Interesting that you're pretending that I'm the one acting "too good to delve any deeper." Interesting that you seem to be willfully ignoring my point, which I've stated is not "who gets to cook what." You demand prescriptive ethics and yet have nothing to contribute yourself besides a throwaway comment that "appropriation is good."

I already brought up twice the institutional factors that need to be addressed. You can go back and read them. Next time bring something to the table before demanding it of others.
 
Jun 6, 2019
1,231
Sorry to hear about your fragility. Notice how whenever the topic gets brought up we have people in here immediately dismissing the validity of cultural appropriation as a concept? Interesting that you're pretending that I'm the one acting "too good to delve any deeper." Interesting thatyou seem to be willfully ignoring my point, which I've stated is not "who gets to cook what." You demand prescriptive ethics and yet have nothing to contribute yourself besides a throwaway comment that "appropriation is good."

I already brought up twice the institutional factors that need to be addressed. You can go back and read them. Next time bring something to the table before demanding it of others.

Wow, what a miserable showing. Yes, I said "appropriation is good". Pathetic display for a moderator.
 
Jun 6, 2019
1,231
User Banned (Permanent): Hostility and Dismissing Concerns of Racism; Prior Bans for Hostility and Dismissive Behavior Including a Severe Ban for Dismissing Sexism
Ah, so you're not actually interested in prescriptive ethics. Completely unsurprising.

You never gave me any. Instead you talk about my fragility, proceed to fail to condense my point appropriately, and to then tell me that you apparently made some valid points before you decided to basically shit post a "bunch of diet racists in here".
 

squeakywheel

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,080
I think the recipies for ethnic food should come from chefs of that specific ethnicity. I reserve the right to bastardize ethnic food to suit my white midwestern taste buds, but first I need to know how it's supposed to be made. I don't want some white person telling me how to make ramen, i want a Japanese person telling me how to make ramen the legit Japanese way. I'll put my own spin on it if need be. Picasso first had to learn to paint the old school way before he invented cubism, ya know what i mean?
This. Right here. I want to know the original first.
 

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
You never gave me any. Instead you talk about my fragility, proceed to fail to condense my point appropriately, and to then tell me that you apparently made some valid points before you decided to basically shit post a "bunch of diet racists in here".

Yeah, that you interpreted my comment as a shit post calling people "diet racists" is pretty fragile. Sorry for failing to condense your point appropriately; apparently that's something we can both work on, hm?

If you're not a fan of snark, then why are you stepping to? My job isn't to be obsequious.

Like yeah, I'm not gonna be all sunshine and roses when you accuse me of pretending to be "too good to delve deeper" when I already have laid out my points.

www.resetera.com

Cultural appropriation in food: When a majority of ethnic cuisine recipes on the web are written by white people, who gets to have authority in food?

This topic is always a hard one for me, not only for its complexity, but because of the dismissiveness and talking past each other that inevitably ensues. In a futile hope that people might listen, I'll just say this, speaking from my own perspective: This isn't about individual people making...
 
OP
OP
RastaMentality
Oct 25, 2017
13,128
Then give us a counter proposal. How would you like to handle this issue of cultural appropriation in food? Who gets to cook what? I want prescriptive ethics on the table. None of this "hurr durr, you guys sounds like diet racists but I'm too good to delve any deeper than that". That helps no one.
Where in God's holy name in the OP does it talk about people being "allowed to cook" anything? please show us.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,890
I disagree entirely about cultural appropriation of food as a concept, as the assimilation of food into a broader cultural soup is typically a mark of cultural association and an important benefit to society. Foods are one of those things that help bridge distance between different cultures. So many cultures around the world independently developed a tradition where sharing a meal with someone was the way that you made peace with them or offered friendship or partnership. Sharing food across cultures is one of the greatest aspects of humanity.

Nobody owns food or recipes. Many foods aren't even culturally native to the population that we associate it with. The potato was introduced to Ireland. Tomatoes are not native to Italy. Many of the spices used in cuisines around the world were introduced to those places by the spice trade. Globalism dating back 700 years has influenced cuisine all over the world.

Then you have things like beer or alcohol. Should a Brewer in America not be able to make a Czech Pilsner or a German Lager? Then should a Brewer in Japan not be able to make an American light lager which itself was a recipe by an American Brewer from his German ancestors...? Should a Texas distiller not be able to make Vodka because Võda is a Polish spirit and the Texans can't appreciate Polish culture? No it's just chemistry. Should a West Coast Brewer not be allowed to make a New England IPA? By copying the style but not preserving the cultural identity -- MassHoles and loving Tom Brady -- of the original Brewer are they stealing this unfairly? Budweiser is an American beer started by a German American 200 years ago and it's now owned by ... Like a Dutch multinational corporate that also sells Corona or something (the details might be wrong but you get the gist), which is itself a beer modelled after Budweiser but sold with some Latin American branding. The beers are popular all over the world. Bud is one of the most popular beer brands all over Europe, but when Budweiser released the "America Cans" a few years ago, the European Budweiser's kept the old branding. Is that appropriation by InBev, the foreign multinational selling shitty American light lager to club goers in Milan?

No. Recipes travel. Food travels. Food follows human migration and when you put up walls to food and saying that one person can't make a food or another person can't be an expert on a food, it's unnatural and is harmful to the human experience of sharing cultures and creating new cultures from that. When I grew up my polish grandmother made traditional polish food (which itself probably isn't even polish but probably some amalgamation of cultures given Poland's history) but most of the time she made Italian food... Not because she wanted to steal from the Italians but because it was cheap, easy, and could feed a whole family out of one pot. That cultural soup in America is also what has created so many wonderful new foods on this continent. Gumbo or Jambalaya are a wonderful mix of cultures, something that you uniquely get in America because you have 3 different cultures colliding In a single place and then necessity bringing them together to produce a wholely new culturally distinct food. Same with American BBQ. Same with Jazz music. Even American "Chinese" food which often is more American than it is Chinese. Our Chinese takeout place sells potato latkes, a meal youd often associated more with Polish Jews than Chinese. And why? Because the Jewish neighborhoods were next to the Chinese neighborhoods and at some point someone realized that potato latkes are good and they started selling them and they were a hit with their customers. Nobody owns potato pancakes, the Irish make boxty, Poles make latkes, Germans make kartoffelpuffel, the Chinese make potato pie or w/e it might be called in Chinese. Nobody owns it. It's a food everyone likes and everyone can make it, and you borrow a bit from one or the other to try to make a good food that sells to your customers.

People opening restaurants and calling them "Clean Chinese food" or something is not an example of appropriation, it's an example of bring a racist dick. It's saying that there's something unclean about Chinese food, something unclean about Chinese people. That's not appropriation, that's racism. It's not that it's an American making Chinese food it's that an American is passing a racist stereotype on Chinese people. Call that out, but not a chef studying cuisine and trying to make the best food they can.
Best post here. Good shit!

I laughed pretty hard at the just being a racist dick part lol
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The 'mouth feel' of Japanese Ramen compared to Chinese noodles in this day and age is very different. Broth, ingredients, style of preparation.

Like, you can go to literally any province and have different types of noodle dishes, ranging from rice to wheat to buckwheat to various clear or cloudy broths.
I don't know about "mouth feel", but what ingredients or techniques do you think they use in ramen dishes in Japan that they don't use in China?

And just to be clear, I'm not saying there is no difference between modern ramen and modern chinese noodles, that would be silly. I'm just saying that those dishes has shared origins and are still have a lot of things in common, in terms of technique, ingredients and presentation.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,890
How is a post that completely ignores the topic of the thread the best post?
I read thru all 5 pages, well almost done with the 5th, and I think he put it best. The thread is all over the place as well but I've learned a lot from those posts as well as the thread-title-specific ones!
 
Mar 18, 2020
2,434
I read thru all 5 pages, well almost done with the 5th, and I think he put it best. The thread is all over the place as well but I've learned a lot from those posts as well as the thread-title-specific ones!

I see.

It's unfortunate that you think that long winded post denying the idea of cultural appropriation put anything well, especially since the OP is specifically about actual minorities being edged out of recognition in favor of non-minority cooks and authors, but if you're getting anything positive from other posts I suppose it evens out.
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,209
How is a post that completely ignores the topic of the thread the best post?

Because threads are a conversation and like most conversations, don't necessarily stick to the exact topic first introduced. This is a hobbiest website, it's not academia, and he was responding to where the discussion ended up, not where it began.
 
Mar 18, 2020
2,434
Because threads are a conversation and like most conversations, don't necessarily stick to the exact topic first introduced. This is a hobbiest website, it's not academia, and he was responding to where the discussion ended up, not where it began.

Derails are usually frowned upon, and for good reason. Multiple people hijacking a thread about minorities being denied opportunities to complain about an imagined problem is nothing to commend.
 

Deleted member 5853

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,725
Ah yes, the bad faith discussions about "WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO CENSOR MUH COOKING" have arrived.

Newflash: no one is saying that Caucasians must only cook foods from predominantly Caucasian areas. What folks are saying is that right now, the blogosphere is favoring Caucasian writers for "ethnic recipes" over authors from that culture. Taking Italian food as an example, say you want to find a recipe for Carbonara. You can either boot up J Kenji Lopez-Alt's video on YouTube or you can search for hundreds of thousands of carbonara recipes from the most authentic of sources. The point is, there is equal exposure for alternate versions of these dishes as well as the original authentic version. Right now, that phenomenon is not happening with cuisine from non-Caucasian areas.

Right now, Alison Roman will earn praise upon praise for her "chickpea stew" by the internet, but people will shrug and act confused when that same dish is presented as chana. The authentic dishes are being side-lined for the "authentic dishes", dishes made by folks whose research cannot compare to the life experiences of those who have grown up in this culture.

So, I am not saying don't cook Chicken Tikka Masala or Naan Bread. What I am saying is that the Times, et al. need to promote authentic voices and stop this habit of promoting Columbus'd recipes.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
Newflash: no one is saying that Caucasians must only cook foods from predominantly Caucasian areas.

Did you miss the insightful users stating that "white people should stay in their lane because they know nothing about other peoples culture and just steal" ?
I don't think anyone was actually disagreeing with media outlets having this kind of bias as being problematic.
 

TheZynster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,285
does this pertain to people say if I use my step mothers recipe who is natively a peruvian and follow that recipe and post it? I mean her Lomo Saltado is GOD TIER
 

Deleted member 5853

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,725
Did you miss the insightful users stating that "white people should stay in their lane because they know nothing about other peoples culture and just steal" ?
I don't think anyone was actually disagreeing with media outlets having this kind of bias as being problematic.
Mostly because the conversation has derailed into "MUH FOOD CENSORSHIP."

Look, while I think its irrational to say "white people should stay in their lane", I get the anger behind it.

For example, look at this news article cited in one of the articles in the OP:
www.thestar.com

Former model Lee Dares launches Lee’s Ghees

Handmade artisanal clarified butter will be sold at One of A Kind sale.

This shit pisses me off because it is a white person "discovering" something that has existed for centuries and getting a fancy news article for it. It makes me mad to see that something from my culture, something that people used to previously knock for a myriad of reasons, getting praise because the face of it happens to be white. And if this were a one-off case, I'd just get over it but this shit keeps on happening. It happens with chana, with chicken tikka masala, with chai tea, with turmeric, etc etc, and it all adds up to this weird inaccurate picture of Indian culture/cuisine that strips away the nuance & complexity in favor of "haha red sauce and naan bread taste good."

Modern food culture has been shaped by centuries of European cuisine that has meant food like Indian cuisine doesn't meet the arbitrary definitions of "haute cuisine." Its a system that demeans Indian food, that considers it low-class because it isn't plated well or because it doesn't use the right exotic meats or because it doesn't work with spoons or forks. It is this kind of system that leads to a damaging of the original food culture. You just have to look at "Chef's Table" to see stories of chefs talking about how this focus on European cooking has led to aspiring chefs abandoning their culture's cuisine. (see: the episodes on Gaggan Anand and Bo Songvisava). To see the culture that you love, that you were raised upon and entangled with deeply, being arbitrarily cast aside, demeaned, and damaged by this toxic food culture hurts. To then see praise and attention lavished upon a simplified, stripped-away, palatable version of it stings even more.

So yes, I understand where the anger is coming from when the user says "white people should stay in their lane." Do I think its reactionary and inflammatory? Yes. Do I agree with it? Yes and no.
 
Mar 7, 2020
2,969
USA
Love how all the "Master" race people coming out complaining about how they can't cook when the issue is how Minorities, and other races creations, history, and achievements are being erased, or credit taken by White people.

But It's not because of a history of Colonialism, where other races had suffered under that they see the world from that point of view. And Colonialism isn't about White Saviors coming to the savage land, taming the Savage Natives and enlightening them and giving the culture. It's how the Master race, came, exploit, steal, and enslave the local population for their own goal. So try seeing it from that point of view.
 

Kinggroin

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,392
Uranus, get it?!? YOUR. ANUS.
Yes. This.

And usually destroy the authenticity and uniqueness of it in the process while appropriating it.

I'm Puerto Rican / Dominican and I fuck up other ethnic foods quite often.

While authentic representation is necessary, and the numbers have to get higher, telling just white people to stay in their lane in the kitchen is silly. White people writing recipes about mofongo isn't the problem. Telling me I can't however, is.
 

Deleted member 24097

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
704

Let me tell you just this: the way you quote is absolutely facepalm inducing.
Re-read what I wrote, re-read what you wrote, and try to understand the text as a whole, in terms of paragraphs, instead of underlining two bits thinking you're making a point.
Hint: writing something to the effect of "quoting your own message: 'I like to drink grapefruit juice', see, you admitted it yourself, you are nothing but a rapist!" is not the honest way to participate in a written debate.

Japanese Ramen is pretty much exactly what happens when a dish is taken by a population and transformed over and over. This happens because local people source their own ingredients; and then other people use, change, adapt and share recipes that get farther and farther away from the original.
Sometimes, that specific food then becomes a cultural item in itself.

When Stephanie from Scottsbluff, NE, wakes up on a Sunday and writes on a cooking website the recipe of the "delicious sushi" she made the day before "but-I-used-basmati-rice-because-I-like-the-flavor" and "also-I-didnt-put-vinegar-in-it-lol", she may be creating the ancestor of "sushey", a dish consisting of a slice of raw horse meat on a cob of corn, dipped in a bowl of barbecue sauce mixed with grated radish; the most emblematic food item of Nebraska in 200 years!

But what she is not doing is de-platforming Japanese natives. Anyone who wants to try the real deal can look up a proper recipe online - especially in English: English is probably the only language where you can find authentic recipes for food items from the entire world, written by natives, in English for an international audience.

If local people end up embracing Stephanie's recipe because they, too, have flawed taste buds, it is not her fault, and it won't cause the demise of actual sushi.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,978
I'm Puerto Rican / Dominican and I fuck up other ethnic foods quite often.

While authentic representation is necessary, and the numbers have to get higher, telling just white people to stay in their lane in the kitchen is silly. White people writing recipes about mofongo isn't the problem. Telling me I can't however, is.
I never said that white people can't cook dishes from other cultures.

It's the lack of cultural understanding from people who modify these dishes or prepare them in an inauthentic manner and claim their versions are authentic when they're anything but.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,251
I never said that white people can't cook dishes from other cultures.

It's the lack of cultural understanding from people who modify these dishes or prepare them in an inauthentic manner and claim their versions are authentic when they're anything but.
Sometimes it's just not that deep. I have no "cultural understanding" of my father's food, but I can replicate his chicken adobo perfectly step by step. I can't call it authentic?
 
Oct 27, 2017
704
This may be a sideshow compared to the main topic at hand, but I do find it amusing that Europeans especially want to have it both ways. They get up in arms over protecting the traditions of their regional food specialties (to the point where they want effectively a global trademark on these foods' names), and then in the next breath will be defending their "right" to reimagine and reinterpret food from everywhere else.

Not saying that they can't, but I don't see Japan raising a stink over other countries producing Waygu beef, or other countries forming a block to protect the traditional integrity of their food specialties. Meanwhile the EU has things like the protected designation of origin (PDO), protected geographical indication (PGI), and traditional specialities guaranteed (TSG), which they basically use to ensure that only sparkling wine produced in the Champagne region of France can be referred to as "champagne", etc. Feels very much like having your cake and eating it too.
 

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
This may be a sideshow compared to the main topic at hand, but I do find it amusing that Europeans especially want to have it both ways. They get up in arms over protecting the traditions of their regional food specialties (to the point where they want effectively a global trademark on these foods' names), and then in the next breath will be defending their "right" to reimagine and reinterpret food from everywhere else.

Not saying that they can't, but I don't see Japan raising a stink over other countries producing Waygu beef, or other countries forming a block to protect the traditional integrity of their food specialties. Meanwhile the EU has things like the protected designation of origin (PDO), protected geographical indication (PGI), and traditional specialities guaranteed (TSG), which they basically use to ensure that only sparkling wine produced in the Champagne region of France can be referred to as "champagne", etc. Feels very much like having your cake and eating it too.

Good point; that's something I've thought about but never really put into words. It's kind of funny that the public opinion seems to be indignation at white people being shut out of other cultures' cuisines when the opposite happens all too often with no concern, as seen in the article posted earlier about Sohla El-Waylly.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,422
Phoenix, AZ
its so hard finding recipes that aren't white-red down. luckily I found a good website for Thai recipes by an actual Thai cook, and they are immensely better.

also I have something to add to the discussion as a white person:

the reason I think so many of these recipes are written by white people, is not necessarily (solely) because of an intent of bastardization and ripping off, but in reality white people have no distinct food culture of their own. Mexican people likely aren't going to go out of their way to look up "Mexican recipes" for example, because they are more familiar with their culture and likely have a relative who has cooked those dishes with them before. it's white people who have none of that experience so they need to seek it elsewhere, it's really just more demand from them than from other cultures.
 
Last edited:

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,161
Hull, UK
This may be a sideshow compared to the main topic at hand, but I do find it amusing that Europeans especially want to have it both ways. They get up in arms over protecting the traditions of their regional food specialties (to the point where they want effectively a global trademark on these foods' names), and then in the next breath will be defending their "right" to reimagine and reinterpret food from everywhere else.

Not saying that they can't, but I don't see Japan raising a stink over other countries producing Waygu beef, or other countries forming a block to protect the traditional integrity of their food specialties. Meanwhile the EU has things like the protected designation of origin (PDO), protected geographical indication (PGI), and traditional specialities guaranteed (TSG), which they basically use to ensure that only sparkling wine produced in the Champagne region of France can be referred to as "champagne", etc. Feels very much like having your cake and eating it too.

I'm not sure the average European has that much influence over those schemes, and in fact the most populous English speaking European country just left the EU so we've got even less influence now! I'm not personally opposed to them but I'm not inclined to defend them either, honestly I know very little about the impact of them. I wouldn't be opposed to other specifically regional ingredients getting similar protections.

As for the OP, it's depressing but sadly unsurprising to hear about more systemic obstacles for PoC. As a white person I'd like to do more and do better for them. I'm not in a position to financially influence the New York Times or whatever, but I will try to promote the recipes and chefs I find.
 

Amspicora

Member
Oct 29, 2017
456
This may be a sideshow compared to the main topic at hand, but I do find it amusing that Europeans especially want to have it both ways. They get up in arms over protecting the traditions of their regional food specialties (to the point where they want effectively a global trademark on these foods' names), and then in the next breath will be defending their "right" to reimagine and reinterpret food from everywhere else.

Not saying that they can't, but I don't see Japan raising a stink over other countries producing Waygu beef, or other countries forming a block to protect the traditional integrity of their food specialties. Meanwhile the EU has things like the protected designation of origin (PDO), protected geographical indication (PGI), and traditional specialities guaranteed (TSG), which they basically use to ensure that only sparkling wine produced in the Champagne region of France can be referred to as "champagne", etc. Feels very much like having your cake and eating it too.

But nothing will stop you to produce your version of "sparkling wine" and calling it with another name. The point of the pdo is to avoid people from other nations to sell a product with a label saying it's from to another place. You can totally produce a cheese like parmigiano reggiano but you can't call it parmigiano reggiano... because is not from Emilia Romagna (for example, my region did produce a parmigiano-like it's only labeled with another name). The pdo protect the denomination, not the way a product is made.